Sp you had to post this as some sort of discrediting rost? Thats very productive. If you have to be this way, please be somewhat courteous and do it in some other thread that has the typical contributors who claim that you can only produce a decent speaker with specs and klippel testing. Don't contaminate the productive threads with the typical defaming argumentation from the NASA engineering department.Hi there,
my last words for this here, looking at the other topics of the thread owner
i think as many other users of the forum he tends to justify his own choices at any cost, this a well known human attitude
i am a fan of high sensisvity horn designs, here the only alternative to compression tweeters would be the quite expensive Mundorf / 18sound pro AMT's
that's all folks, Stefano
I still do like higher end CD/WG combos, but not the cheap stuff that isn't close to a T35C002 or T34B in a proper engineered WG. I'm happy for those who can pull a decent sounding system together on a shoe string budget, but don't beat your drum and state they're just as good as or better than a very carefully put together design with the best available drivers.
We have a local record store owner here in the Valley who is absolutely in love with this huge Wilson's. I'm ok with that, but don't come out with guns a blazing stating its the last word in accuracy and all out precision. Its just not.
The reason I started this thread is to get some opinions on how some companies (not just Wilson) can claim superiority of their product when it obviously doesn't sound (or even measure) that way. That's why I say, there's a seat for every @$$ but it's not the seat for mine. Live and let live...
I'm honestly done with this thread. I think it has ran its course and has nothing more to prove. I'm writing all this from my bedside, too weak to even get up to use the restroom. I'm not going to stress myself out.
Simple - deceptive marketing, gargantuan dimensions, alien sci-fi visual design and exuberant price overpower logic, objective and subjective tests.
Do you have a link? You definitely can kill a midbass fast with alot of lower mid content and cross it high to a tweeter around 3 - 4k. I see this on the thermal power management parameters applied on some pro level line arrays. That midbass has to cope with alot of energy on some types of music ie. Metal, DnB, etc.
Alot of the 2.5 way B&W systems have a significant portion of the midbass cut from the bottom driver and it actually runs cooler than the same chassis model midbass above it having to play the lower mids on up. When I was working for a B&W service center many years back, we'd typically see more of the upper LF drivers with cooked VCs than overexcursion from the lower driver. In every example it was traced back to either metal or other similar midbass heavy music.
@Sonce. Sure, there's alot of this going on in the high end speaker world.
An interesting story I have to share along these lines -
I used to own large Soundlab ESLs. They had curved panels which had considerably more output potential compared to other ESLs with flat panels, closer to the output capability of some larger box style speakers. With dedicated subs, they were capable of impressive dynamic range, almost on par with big multi way speakers.
When I invited others over to listen who were used to their highly colored large format multi way box speakers, they all had an interesting reaction after listening for a while. When I trying to talk over the music, they would often say "damn, that's alot louder than I thought it was". They were used to the distortion from their own speakers dominating the sense of loudness.
I ended up selling my Soundlabs to one of these guys since he loved them so much. He sold his Infinity IRS and ended making money from the transaction. He added some Genesis 15" subs (also designed by the same Annie Nudel from Infinity) and a pair of large Krell monoblocks. This was his system for 10 more years until his basement was flooded, which ruined everything. He had no insurance.... ouch.
The point of this is these big box speakers have more drawbacks than advantages. ESLs aren't perfect either, but have unrestricted dynamic range up top, which is more important than people think. A little dome tweeter just isn't going to keep up with a square foot plus of ESL HF element.
An interesting story I have to share along these lines -
I used to own large Soundlab ESLs. They had curved panels which had considerably more output potential compared to other ESLs with flat panels, closer to the output capability of some larger box style speakers. With dedicated subs, they were capable of impressive dynamic range, almost on par with big multi way speakers.
When I invited others over to listen who were used to their highly colored large format multi way box speakers, they all had an interesting reaction after listening for a while. When I trying to talk over the music, they would often say "damn, that's alot louder than I thought it was". They were used to the distortion from their own speakers dominating the sense of loudness.
I ended up selling my Soundlabs to one of these guys since he loved them so much. He sold his Infinity IRS and ended making money from the transaction. He added some Genesis 15" subs (also designed by the same Annie Nudel from Infinity) and a pair of large Krell monoblocks. This was his system for 10 more years until his basement was flooded, which ruined everything. He had no insurance.... ouch.
The point of this is these big box speakers have more drawbacks than advantages. ESLs aren't perfect either, but have unrestricted dynamic range up top, which is more important than people think. A little dome tweeter just isn't going to keep up with a square foot plus of ESL HF element.
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I miss my big Soundlabs. They were honestly overall the best sounding, performing speakers I've owned.
I had Apogee Divas too, which didn't last past the warranty period and had tons of issues.
The best ESL planars available with the least amount of drawbacks are IMO Soundlab. They would put the Wilson's to shame on many levels. The only place the Wilson's would beat them is in LF output. I honestly don't know why I even bother anymore with speakers that have voicel coils. We do live in interesting times with how far dynamic transducers have come. These new Bliesma dome drivers are quite remarkable, but they do require alot of careful engineering to extract their best. Hopefully I'll live long enough to get mine finished up.
I had Apogee Divas too, which didn't last past the warranty period and had tons of issues.
The best ESL planars available with the least amount of drawbacks are IMO Soundlab. They would put the Wilson's to shame on many levels. The only place the Wilson's would beat them is in LF output. I honestly don't know why I even bother anymore with speakers that have voicel coils. We do live in interesting times with how far dynamic transducers have come. These new Bliesma dome drivers are quite remarkable, but they do require alot of careful engineering to extract their best. Hopefully I'll live long enough to get mine finished up.
I am manufacturing both pro and hi-fi loudspeakers. In recent years much of the hi-fi loudspeakers I designed were with pro drivers - dynamic is excellent and distortion is very low. For high range I am using AMTs (Beyma TPL), compression drivers with horns and tweeters in waveguides.
ESLs typically are large and because of dipole principle of work they need space in the room. Not everyone has so much space, so conventional moving coil pro speakers are viable option. Price is also a decisive factor.
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I still would appreciate very much a pointer from @profiguy as he (alone in this forum?) has tried pushing both to their limits, with respect to high-fidelity very high frequency dispersion.
Augerpro waveguides
https://www.somasonus.net/waveguideses
But I haven't noticed anyone having interest in achieving very wide dispersion from compression drivers. I sort of fights against the idea of a horn+CD...
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compression-drivers-without-horns.106438/
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64794
High frequencies/short wavelength suffer also from airborne dissipation, and this is why hifi-speakers should be measured at at least 2m, preferably 3m (Klippel NFS can compensate for this)
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm
https://www.somasonus.net/waveguideses
But I haven't noticed anyone having interest in achieving very wide dispersion from compression drivers. I sort of fights against the idea of a horn+CD...
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compression-drivers-without-horns.106438/
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64794
High frequencies/short wavelength suffer also from airborne dissipation, and this is why hifi-speakers should be measured at at least 2m, preferably 3m (Klippel NFS can compensate for this)
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm
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@Juhazi This and other similar challenges is why I always teeter on the edge of higher sensitivity direct radiators vs less aggressive exit angle, smooth transition CDs with low HF diffraction WGs. There's a happy medium somewhere here, but its difficult to find.
Planar HF is only sufficient for me in the upper treble, above 5k or so. Again, some big differences in driver performance across the brands.
Planar HF is only sufficient for me in the upper treble, above 5k or so. Again, some big differences in driver performance across the brands.
My hifi-diy experience tells that "best" high frequency clarity and detail comes from a ribbon with a waveguide (Fountek Neo3.5CD). It has rather narrow radiation and practically zero when over 45deg off-axis.
When spl at listening spot is similar, the ear/brain system still uses longer gating, and interferences/diffusion from room reflections of an open dome or dipole soften the perceived spl/quality of high treble transients.
This reflects to profiguy's opening post - why use a single 1" dome with so much more radiating area for low-mid range. And I guess most big Wilsons are used in large rooms?
It is interesting to compare responses of Wilsons to Magicos which use hard "domes" or Revel with a waveguide-Be-dome
https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s5-mkii-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexandria-xlf-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements
When spl at listening spot is similar, the ear/brain system still uses longer gating, and interferences/diffusion from room reflections of an open dome or dipole soften the perceived spl/quality of high treble transients.
This reflects to profiguy's opening post - why use a single 1" dome with so much more radiating area for low-mid range. And I guess most big Wilsons are used in large rooms?
It is interesting to compare responses of Wilsons to Magicos which use hard "domes" or Revel with a waveguide-Be-dome
https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s5-mkii-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexandria-xlf-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements
Thanks for the bottom link. The China forum hifidiy.net once carried a similar discussion but a recent site mishap/upgrade disabled older content.... I don't have to have "very wide dispersion", but if the sound is realistic I will naturally sway to the music. My best speakers (of all types) allow this only to a limited extent; some not at all. Maybe reduced hearing sensitivity 10-16khz has made me more demanding of a wider sweetspot where coherent transcient-perfect response, deep soundstage and venue air could all be heard -- thanks to high-fidelity very high frequency present.
With the HF108 CD I have done this (wider dispersion), in either adhoc MEH or offset 2-ways with deflecting/absorbing "WG" over faceplate. Last year I had confirmed to my satisfaction (I bought them to test) classic Peavey SP-3 Constant Directivity achieved off-axis 15°H 7.5°V possibly up to 16khz (official polars published by Peavey) -- using small 22A CD and very large CH-2 duckbill horn. I have no experience with WG over dome tweeter to disperse VHF but feel comfortable finger-shaping some to try. Profiguy has written elsewhere, typical WG either targeted on-axis response or dispersed-by-diffraction in a bad way.
p.s. Beware the angle the ear makes to the sound source has a significant effect on acuity. Both horizontal/panning and vertical/tilting of the head. The former is well known since 1934 but the latter I cannot explain -- reclining may partially emulate tilting back the speakers for better offset time-alignment (physiologically how?).
A CD waveguide does need to make the highs wider for constant directivity. Look at the OS waveguide for the lowest diffraction way to pull them out. This is one way you can see what you have.
The Seas DXT does a nice job in this department, combining waveguide and diffraction elements to reach very acceptable constant directivity from 4kHz and up.
It's nots like it hasn't been done and done well. 120 x 110 that's wide. Also Array 1400 in room CD design
Rob 🙂
https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/m2#specifications
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Yes JBL M2 is wide and it has D2 compression driver. I'd like to hear them at home... sad that they must be so tall and wide.
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_m2/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_m2/
This afternoon I had an idea for a JBL M2 for those that don't want to drop $10,000.
But first, some background on the M2.
First off, JBL M2 is a two way monitor which uses a similar format as my reference monitors. (Gedlee Summa.) There's a 15" waveguide atop a 15" woofer.
The compression driver in the M2 is very interesting. It's a dual ring radiator, very similar to the BMS compression drivers, except with two diaphragms...
But first, some background on the M2.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
First off, JBL M2 is a two way monitor which uses a similar format as my reference monitors. (Gedlee Summa.) There's a 15" waveguide atop a 15" woofer.
The compression driver in the M2 is very interesting. It's a dual ring radiator, very similar to the BMS compression drivers, except with two diaphragms...
The JBL 4367 also has a wide dispertion btw:
source
A compression driver can have a wide dispertion, it has been done many times in the past, with all kind of horns. CD's are not that much used on hifi as they are harder to do right than a dome tweeter, and for the average hifi system, the max volume needed is not that high that domes can't do it. But it's not impossible.
source
A compression driver can have a wide dispertion, it has been done many times in the past, with all kind of horns. CD's are not that much used on hifi as they are harder to do right than a dome tweeter, and for the average hifi system, the max volume needed is not that high that domes can't do it. But it's not impossible.