This speaker fits into the Audiophile or expensive High End side of the hobby and not the High Fidelity side. High end speakers are a work of art that is both visually and acoustically entertaining. Exotic materials, thick panels lots of jewelry. When I've been in homes with Wilson and other high end speakers I find that they really don't get played super loud. There is usually a dedicated room with a dedicated listening chair not very far from the speaker, so they don't have to. These speakers will have lots of variation in the off axis frequency response that appears to be done very intentionally to produce a large entertaining sound. All those baffle edges and large spacing between lots of drivers can produce a pleasant effect. The small diameter tweeter with wide dispersion is required to illuminate all of those edges. The diffraction at each edge produces another virtual source of sound at that edge and the spacing results in cancelations and addition at different frequencies producing a sort of pseudo stereo effect from a single speaker. It's not high fidelity, but it can be fun.
@mayhem13
"If the argument here is that two 1” dome tweeters will suffer power compression and/or distortion before the accompanying drive units…..fine. One could assert that this is the systems limiting performance function. Hate to say it but some folks enjoy 2nd order HD……and most folks aural capacity will become fatigued right around the same time as power compression sets in with high output levels."
This is essentially the entire issue for me. Simply that a 10 - 15 watt thermally limited driver that has to cover the midrange to upper treble limit can't keep up with other thermally higher capacity cone drivers. Its just that simple.
No fancy materials are going to help with this, unless Wilson has employed some form of super conductor which can carry infinite amounts of current through a 32 - 40 awg wire (often alu-copper clad).
Almost every typical production 3 way speaker I've heard with a 1" dome crossed between 2 - 3k suffers from the same limitations and there's no magical fix for this except for the use of a higher thermally capacity HF driver ie. larger planar, etc.
Compression drivers have their own issues which spoil the fun. They often have long decay times as ringing issues which cannot be fixed to the point of sounding as good as a direct radiating dome. Planars have their own issues with increase 3rd order HD in the mids. My only logical fix is running a 3" dome or 4" cone up higher to relieve the tweeter from torturous mids down low.
"If the argument here is that two 1” dome tweeters will suffer power compression and/or distortion before the accompanying drive units…..fine. One could assert that this is the systems limiting performance function. Hate to say it but some folks enjoy 2nd order HD……and most folks aural capacity will become fatigued right around the same time as power compression sets in with high output levels."
This is essentially the entire issue for me. Simply that a 10 - 15 watt thermally limited driver that has to cover the midrange to upper treble limit can't keep up with other thermally higher capacity cone drivers. Its just that simple.
No fancy materials are going to help with this, unless Wilson has employed some form of super conductor which can carry infinite amounts of current through a 32 - 40 awg wire (often alu-copper clad).
Almost every typical production 3 way speaker I've heard with a 1" dome crossed between 2 - 3k suffers from the same limitations and there's no magical fix for this except for the use of a higher thermally capacity HF driver ie. larger planar, etc.
Compression drivers have their own issues which spoil the fun. They often have long decay times as ringing issues which cannot be fixed to the point of sounding as good as a direct radiating dome. Planars have their own issues with increase 3rd order HD in the mids. My only logical fix is running a 3" dome or 4" cone up higher to relieve the tweeter from torturous mids down low.
@AllenB Surely you're not claiming that most compression drivers sound and measure as clean and accurate as a decent direct radiator. If so, please cite some comparisons. The only compression drivers I've so far come across with any respectable hifi cred are the HF108, CDX1-1430 and NSD1095N. Not cheap or easy to implement in such a way they sound as transparent as even a decent $50 HF dome.
Please show me a CD+WG that sounds as good and accurate as a Bliesma T34B or a Audax TW025A28.
Please show me a CD+WG that sounds as good and accurate as a Bliesma T34B or a Audax TW025A28.
I'll take a compression tweeter any day.. eg: a dynamic type (ie voice coil) with a useable wavefront.
Two things need to be in order. The waveguide has a significant effect on what you hear, so it has to be worthy and it should be appropriate to the room. Secondly, you take control of the output. There's no good reason to leave the EQ to chance.. but that applies to any design 😉
@AllenB. This is more of subjective based argument than hard numbers on paper. The criteria of choice you're citing rules out anything reasonably priced. The WG (or horn) is the easy part in most people's control, but the driver is the big unknown.
Large domes don't like to play past 12 - 14k. The other big problem is the dispersion angle, which needs some diffraction to get any decent HF coverage. That raises HD, especially at higher levels up top and doesn't sound pleasant.
As far as CDs, I'd safely say the vast majority under $100 don't meet the performance standard. Maybe the Tymphany 2544R or the Celestion CDX1-1745, which cost more than my dome choices without a WG to begin with.
And the argument of requiring EQ on decent domes isn't that applicable. I could design a text book 2nd order HP for a good quality dome and end up with excellent linearity. There's no way you're pulling that off with a CD. Its not possible.
The cheapest domes I'd deem accurate enough for my needs would be the $60 Seas 22TAF/G, $55 SB26ADC, $80 Morel CAT308 or its WGed brother CAT378. These are some of my preferred domes under $100.
There's no way any of the cheap CD+WG combos will be as extended up top or as easy to listen to (while being detailed). That's of course considering the dynamic limits of the lower efficiency direct radiating domes. If you put these in appropriate WGs, things go even more in favor of the domes.
I've done the CD+WG thing and have gotten over it. I have a $1500 pair of A290 clones sitting, collecting dust. The pipe dream of a moderate priced CD/WG system isn't that easy to attain. You need very expensive, difficult to source components to make it all work on the same level as the best available direct radiating multi way systems. I've experienced this myself and have chosen the logical path which has a far greater chance of success.
Large domes don't like to play past 12 - 14k. The other big problem is the dispersion angle, which needs some diffraction to get any decent HF coverage. That raises HD, especially at higher levels up top and doesn't sound pleasant.
As far as CDs, I'd safely say the vast majority under $100 don't meet the performance standard. Maybe the Tymphany 2544R or the Celestion CDX1-1745, which cost more than my dome choices without a WG to begin with.
And the argument of requiring EQ on decent domes isn't that applicable. I could design a text book 2nd order HP for a good quality dome and end up with excellent linearity. There's no way you're pulling that off with a CD. Its not possible.
The cheapest domes I'd deem accurate enough for my needs would be the $60 Seas 22TAF/G, $55 SB26ADC, $80 Morel CAT308 or its WGed brother CAT378. These are some of my preferred domes under $100.
There's no way any of the cheap CD+WG combos will be as extended up top or as easy to listen to (while being detailed). That's of course considering the dynamic limits of the lower efficiency direct radiating domes. If you put these in appropriate WGs, things go even more in favor of the domes.
I've done the CD+WG thing and have gotten over it. I have a $1500 pair of A290 clones sitting, collecting dust. The pipe dream of a moderate priced CD/WG system isn't that easy to attain. You need very expensive, difficult to source components to make it all work on the same level as the best available direct radiating multi way systems. I've experienced this myself and have chosen the logical path which has a far greater chance of success.
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As I read the latest change-of-topic (with interest), I wondered how (WG) dome vs CD compared off-axis 10-16khz? How wide a dispersion (within -3dB) might be possible?
I do use waveguides which cannot be bought. The waveguide does more to the sound than the driver.
The A290 isn't exactly a waveguide, it prioritises loading over vertical directivity.
Most commercially available WGs use diffraction to achieve decent off axis HF. That always creates some type of artifacts which don't sound pleasant at all, especially to people who have used alot of larger format monitors. Unless you design your own WGs and have strict control over this issue, its always going to be there.
Sorry, but anyone citing Gedlee isn't going to receive a warm welcome. I disagree with many of his so called studies and statics. I'm not going there, aside from simply pointing out that you aren't going to get the same performance from a Chinese knckoff driver unless its an extremely close copy. I've heard this comparison cited millions of times.
We'll just agree to disagree. I don't have the drive or energy to pick apart subjective performance of HF drivers and WGs. This thread was only intending to point out the bandwidth limited power handling of little dome tweeters in large multi way speakers.
Sorry, but anyone citing Gedlee isn't going to receive a warm welcome. I disagree with many of his so called studies and statics. I'm not going there, aside from simply pointing out that you aren't going to get the same performance from a Chinese knckoff driver unless its an extremely close copy. I've heard this comparison cited millions of times.
We'll just agree to disagree. I don't have the drive or energy to pick apart subjective performance of HF drivers and WGs. This thread was only intending to point out the bandwidth limited power handling of little dome tweeters in large multi way speakers.
I think @olson3d nailed it in #61. There are those who perceive top quality sound reproduction for hobby and/or for profession. And there are those who build temples to worship anything from music to cable risers. For themselves or for others. And everything in between.
As to CD versus bare dome: I still think power compression only is an issue above -say- 105dB. A level at which our ears start to distort considerably. There can be legitimate reasons for CD-s, like maintaining directivity or big listening distance.
I wouldn’t mind about moderate lowish HD levels at high frequencies. Most if not all of us aren’t able to discern in ABX tests.
As to CD versus bare dome: I still think power compression only is an issue above -say- 105dB. A level at which our ears start to distort considerably. There can be legitimate reasons for CD-s, like maintaining directivity or big listening distance.
I wouldn’t mind about moderate lowish HD levels at high frequencies. Most if not all of us aren’t able to discern in ABX tests.
Simply because it works for their clientele and in general. How many speakers use 1" domes? You have to push them to higher than average listening levels to hear any obvious issues so it's cost effective and meets most peoples needs and expectations.
Rob 🙂
We don't know the crossover frequency of larger Wilson Audio models.
What huge imbalance? There are only two 7" midrange drivers - which is not different than any of several hundreds/thousands models from other manufacturers with two 6.5" (or 7") midbass drivers, ranging from dirt cheap to three times more expensive than Alexandria. Woofers are 13" and 15", which combined output is not much different than good mid-priced audiophile/home theater setup with two good 15" subwoofers.
Yes, tweeter is obviously the weakest link if the loudspeaker use two midranges and two big woofers. But, good 1" tweeters do not distort up to 95-96 dB, and some are capable of even higher SPL. Good 1" dome with waveguide easily will reach SPL=100 dB without distortion.
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Hi there,
trying to follow the original topic, i recall the https://www.theaudiobeat.com/ article with the design decision of Dave Wilson himself qouted as a notorious perfectionist until he passed in 2018
interesting is the fact that compression tweeters hasn't been taken into consideration at all
one reason might be that a lot of compression tweeters have their own sounding and that for a low crossover frequency they need a bigger waveguide that optically would have never fitted to the rest of the mid- highrange asset with the MTM approach of the Wilson Audio speaker
with a passive crossover the time alignment in the MTM arrangement could have been another problem that lead to discard a compression tweeter in the first place
i think 12 - 13 years ago the AMT designs were not so good as they are today but i am not sure
if you look at the pros in the PA market like 18sound you can see that a AMT with a good waveguide is considered in the meantime as the highest sound quality available, better than the compression drivers, maybe beside the ultra expensive ones with the beryllium diaphragms
so far - so good, Stefano
trying to follow the original topic, i recall the https://www.theaudiobeat.com/ article with the design decision of Dave Wilson himself qouted as a notorious perfectionist until he passed in 2018
interesting is the fact that compression tweeters hasn't been taken into consideration at all
one reason might be that a lot of compression tweeters have their own sounding and that for a low crossover frequency they need a bigger waveguide that optically would have never fitted to the rest of the mid- highrange asset with the MTM approach of the Wilson Audio speaker
with a passive crossover the time alignment in the MTM arrangement could have been another problem that lead to discard a compression tweeter in the first place
i think 12 - 13 years ago the AMT designs were not so good as they are today but i am not sure
if you look at the pros in the PA market like 18sound you can see that a AMT with a good waveguide is considered in the meantime as the highest sound quality available, better than the compression drivers, maybe beside the ultra expensive ones with the beryllium diaphragms
so far - so good, Stefano
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There are WG/horns which do not use diffraction.
There are many good compression drivers without those issues.
18Sound XD125 is CD/horn combo with very good performance and price cheaper than Morel tweeter.
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Hi there,
my last words for this here, looking at the other topics of the thread owner
i think as many other users of the forum he tends to justify his own choices at any cost, this a well known human attitude
i am a fan of high sensisvity horn designs, here the only alternative to compression tweeters would be the quite expensive Mundorf / 18sound pro AMT's
that's all folks, Stefano
my last words for this here, looking at the other topics of the thread owner
i think as many other users of the forum he tends to justify his own choices at any cost, this a well known human attitude
i am a fan of high sensisvity horn designs, here the only alternative to compression tweeters would be the quite expensive Mundorf / 18sound pro AMT's
that's all folks, Stefano
I recall a big, very popular DIY system from years ago with a pretty solid 6,5” bass-mid. They came back quite a few times with those mids ruined by sheer amp power but tweeters OK. Average power distribution in music signals show why.
Full disclosure, I’m not a fan of the Wilson sound and have heard them in many dozens of systems over the years. To me, the common issue always comes back to the tweeter being driven to the ragged edge. It is common to hear them with a 1000 watts of amplification sitting behind them. Listening position to get the best from the speaker is always hugely restricted and and you almost feel you need to lock your head in a vice to avoid phase issues.
Sorry if I offend any fans but I would take a great AMT design over Wilson tiny tweeters any day!
PS. The attached image was from Munich last week. Sounded horrible and aggressive.
Sorry if I offend any fans but I would take a great AMT design over Wilson tiny tweeters any day!
PS. The attached image was from Munich last week. Sounded horrible and aggressive.
Yes, with 1000 watts megalomaniac exaggeration any 1" tweeter will be stressed beyond its capabilities.
They're sensitivity spec should give you a clue to why.
Everything is paralleled, and the impedance tends to be very low and fluctuating.
Like they're big Chronosonics is avg 2,5ohm from 50-3000hz, goes down to ca 1,5 in places.
They needs amp that is stable below 2ohm and can deliver a decent amount of current.
There is a huge amount of phase shift to the HF due to they're quirky crossovers.
There is also a lot of diffraction going on, from the design.
The tweeters are often recessed into the baffle, with the foam "star around the dome", and edges sticking out past the faceplate just a few inches from the tweeter. just bad acoustic design.