Sorry, but 4367 is not wide or smooth
compared to M2
huge difference to narrow box+WG Revel F226
compared to M2
huge difference to narrow box+WG Revel F226
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Right!
But keep in mind the difference in scale 30 dB for the first two and 50 dB (or 48) for the Revel.
NFS software settings had changed - here both in 50dB scale, but still different smoothing
Revel
M2
and Wilson TuneTot https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-high-end-bookshelf-speaker.29219/page-3
(sorry different type of graphics)
Revel
M2
and Wilson TuneTot https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-high-end-bookshelf-speaker.29219/page-3
(sorry different type of graphics)
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There is more than one way to pull dispersion out wider than the direct radiator would (besides a typical diffraction horn with a slot at the throat).
The OS waveguide eases and guides them out that way. If the wavefront or the waveguide are not right, it won't be effective. The LeCleach horn has a similar way of following extra-wavefront expansion, but has a different outcome.
Another way could be to diffract the wavefront using champhers out from the throat, similar to the way Olsson used the secondary flare to create functional diffraction.
Oligarchs wake up! 😎 https://www.stereophile.com/content...o-and-d’agostino-team-aided-dcs-and-stromtank
Audio Reference of Hamburg, in collaboration with many of its distributed brands, set up a mind-blowing system at Munich High End, valued at well over $3 million. At its heart were Wilson Audio’s WAMM Master Chronosonic loudspeakers ($685,000/pair)—Dave Wilson’s final design—and a massive Wilson Thor’s Hammer subwoofer array ($25,000/each).
The setup also featured four eye-catching D’Agostino Relentless monoblocks ($349,500/pair), a three-piece Relentless preamplifier ($165,000), a full dCS Vivaldi front end (roughly $90,000 total), and a VPI Direct Drive turntable that wasn’t in use during my audition. Completing the rig were Nordost Odin 2 cables and power treatment, two hefty Stromtanks, and Italian-made Bassocontinuo racks.
Audio Reference of Hamburg, in collaboration with many of its distributed brands, set up a mind-blowing system at Munich High End, valued at well over $3 million. At its heart were Wilson Audio’s WAMM Master Chronosonic loudspeakers ($685,000/pair)—Dave Wilson’s final design—and a massive Wilson Thor’s Hammer subwoofer array ($25,000/each).
The setup also featured four eye-catching D’Agostino Relentless monoblocks ($349,500/pair), a three-piece Relentless preamplifier ($165,000), a full dCS Vivaldi front end (roughly $90,000 total), and a VPI Direct Drive turntable that wasn’t in use during my audition. Completing the rig were Nordost Odin 2 cables and power treatment, two hefty Stromtanks, and Italian-made Bassocontinuo racks.
If I may request a clarification here. I understand that, if you are working in a recording studio your mains need to handle an uncompressed feed, which is why studio monitors are rated for silly levels like 120dB at 1m continuously as well as having some fairly robust protection in place to prevent bad things happening (oh and generally use 4th order crossovers at points chosen for power handling). But for those of us who only have a diet of commercially released music which bar the odd track which gets out ( like one Ricky lee Jones album) with decent dynamic range is there much that has a decent dynamic range that would cause the problems you are talking of? As in is this a real problem or do you like to have speakers such that, if someone comes over with a rush from their latest recording session with no compression added you can have a listen at realistic levels and no worry about anything going foom?
With the Revel223, here is a good example of a distressed sounding tweeter. This will be a very audible 3rd order harmonic at 2.5kHz.
At 84 dB nominal output level, the 2.5k, 3rd order peak will be a 43 dB peak
At 104 dB nominal output level, the 2.5k, 3rd order peak will be a 67 dB peak
@billshurv That Ricky Lee Jones album you cite is recorded very well from a dynamic POV. Its what I'd typically listen to ie. Chuck E's in Love.
There's nothing "silly" about the necessary HF dynamic range of a decent monitor system.
Ulla Meinecke's "Die Tänzerin" is another very well recorded track in terms of explosive vocal
dynamics. I'm not even going to bother posting the awful sounding YT versions of these mentioned recordings. You'll just hear them in nasty over-compression.
Please remember, the judgement being placed on my audio "preferences" are actual "necessities" for me. "Good enough" for you and others isn't so for me. I'm tired of people placing their preferences onto me as they're not shared.
If the tweeter smokes with a cymbal crash, then it's inadequate for my needs as both a reference grade system and/or a leisure grade, accurate sounding system to MY ears. If that's too unreasonable for some of you, then so be it.
There's nothing "silly" about the necessary HF dynamic range of a decent monitor system.
Ulla Meinecke's "Die Tänzerin" is another very well recorded track in terms of explosive vocal
dynamics. I'm not even going to bother posting the awful sounding YT versions of these mentioned recordings. You'll just hear them in nasty over-compression.
Please remember, the judgement being placed on my audio "preferences" are actual "necessities" for me. "Good enough" for you and others isn't so for me. I'm tired of people placing their preferences onto me as they're not shared.
If the tweeter smokes with a cymbal crash, then it's inadequate for my needs as both a reference grade system and/or a leisure grade, accurate sounding system to MY ears. If that's too unreasonable for some of you, then so be it.
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Dynaudio used to market some of their drivers being able to handle 1kW sine burst without compression, don't know how much that is worth, they had some oscilloscope pictures which is by today's standards a bit crude.
For instance, the D28 AF has a power handling capability of 300 Watt DIN, and 1200 Watt DIN Music. (To be honest it sounds quite a lot)
https://hifi-wiki.com/images/4/4b/DYNAUDIO_D28AF-001.jpg
https://hifi-wiki.com/images/c/c1/DYNAUDIO_D28AF-002.jpg
For instance, the D28 AF has a power handling capability of 300 Watt DIN, and 1200 Watt DIN Music. (To be honest it sounds quite a lot)
https://hifi-wiki.com/images/4/4b/DYNAUDIO_D28AF-001.jpg
https://hifi-wiki.com/images/c/c1/DYNAUDIO_D28AF-002.jpg
It's more likely due to unstable amp oscillation that kills the tweeter rather than insufficient power.
https://www.prosoundweb.com/are-und...speakers-a-fresh-look-at-conventional-wisdom/
@UniQ That peak power handling is sort of a redundant number which can be comparable to quite a few other decent HF domes.
Just because the VC is wound from a hexagonal wire cross section doesn't designate it as being able to handle any more amount of peak power than any other higher performance soft dome ie. ScanSpeak D2905-9700.
The aluminum VC former is more of a designating spec than anything else being able to absorbe the peak thermally. The Ferrofluid is another one of those little details. It will conduct a large part of that thermal peak to the motor.
In the end we're only dealing with a driver that has an average thermal constant power handling of 10 - 15W on a good day. The physical mass of the VC, its neighboring components and the adhesives used to attach them all will define this number more than anything else.
Just because the VC is wound from a hexagonal wire cross section doesn't designate it as being able to handle any more amount of peak power than any other higher performance soft dome ie. ScanSpeak D2905-9700.
The aluminum VC former is more of a designating spec than anything else being able to absorbe the peak thermally. The Ferrofluid is another one of those little details. It will conduct a large part of that thermal peak to the motor.
In the end we're only dealing with a driver that has an average thermal constant power handling of 10 - 15W on a good day. The physical mass of the VC, its neighboring components and the adhesives used to attach them all will define this number more than anything else.
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I've heard the Wilson Master Chronosonics driven by those same D'Agostino components. A local dealer has them.
Not impressed, trust me, not impressed. The owner agrees with me.... but there are people with lots of money that buy that kind of stuff and it pays his mortgage.
The system doesn't come together. It has way too much "detail" that actually gets in the way of the music. These are systems designed after the school of "we have all the measurements we need" and so failed to take the last step which is to introduce some distortion that make the system more believable.
If you don't listen to live music and have gobs of money to spend, go for it. But they just don't sound like a real orchestra.
It maybe that we need some distortion to make stereo recording more believable, to allow both channels to blend a little bit more and to create a sense of depth that is stolen by the recording process.
BTW, it is possible for a speaker to sound almost like 99% of the real thing. A massless one with master tapes. ( I think the tapes were overkill, the speaker/amps were responsible.... and dang it, I sure would like to get some 24/96 versions of that tape).
At BAF24 @Tony Salsich was showing off his Plasmatronics with the Quads (*) . That system absolutely beat the pants of the Wilsons. Just standing there you could hear the layering and positioning of the orchestra. There! There! It had depth, detail and very good dynamic range. Musically, the Wilson/D'Agostinos etc... have great dynamic range, that's all.
(*) Talk about overkill, but when you think about it, you need a low mass low end to match those massless drivers!
Are we sure that's even a tweeter issue? It looks like it could very easily be a resonance amplification from the midrange driver. The frequency is perfect for a primary breakup of 8kHz. Besides a 1" dome struggling with a frequency of 2.5kHz and in a waveguide? If the tweeter was struggling you'd expect the 2nd order to be on the way up too and it's not.
Actually look at the 4th and 5th harmonics in the midrange. There's your 2kHz and 1.6kHz bumps. This is not the tweeter struggling it's a midrange distortion peak from cone resonance amplification. Revel should have stuck with SB Acoustics and their ribbed cones.
If you've listened to these and thought something was the tweeter struggling then you were fooled by a midrange issue.
My own experience with stupid loud levels were at a hifi show demonstration decades ago. This was the TacT room paired with some Dali speakers. They were playing a drum solo at insane levels. Loud enough that my eyes instinctively snapped shut every time the share drum was hit hard. This was a large room and I was sat in the middle. I remember my ears ringing when it was over. It was far too loud and this was when I was a teeneager who thought he liked to listen loud. The Dali speakers didn't even flinch with the cymbal crashes and snare snaps and everything else and no doubt they'd been doing this demo all day. They didn't use waveguides either.
I'm not convinced this is actually much of problem for properly designed systems in domestic environments. However it would be interesting to see where things go pear shaped in a controlled test of tweeter robustness.
Ie take a cheap, but decent, tweeter, like some basic 1" Dayton. Then high pass it with 4th order LW acoustic slopes at various frequencies. Play a demanding drum solo and change the SPL until the tweeter fails. See what SPL the tweeter actually fails at for any given average midband SPL and do it with an amplifier of enough power so that it never clips. Provide enough time between changes in SPL and crossover frequency to allow for any motor system heating to dissipate.
I remember a thread years ago in which someone was regularly blowing tweeters in their car. Like clockwork the things would blow up after a long drive. It turned out that the average power level was enough so that the motor structure would gradually increase in temperature and then after enough time things would get too hot and the voice coil insulation would melt. They tried using the neodymium magnet version, as it was almost identical, but that only made it melt faster due to the reduced thermal mass. It was only after trying the neo version that the cause was figured out.
I suppose if someone wanted to do this it would be interesting to see, first of all, how loud the tweeter needed to go for immediate failure on a single play through. But then how loud could it go continuously.
Back in the day Linkwitz did do some transient tone burst testing, to get a feel for tweeter power handling and thermal compression issues, but he didn't push things until they broke.
Given the nature of the thread, profiguy, it would seem like further testing is required to really see when this becomes a problem. Tweeter buyout at parts express anyone and destruction testing?
I'm with @5th element
Before we can accuse anyone of using a tweeter too low or too loud, let's acquire a silk dome like Wilson Audio do:
attach a big a large rear chamber, like Wilson Audio do:
and crossover at ~1.1-1.2KHz LR4, like Wilson Audio do, in their XLF, and then play some music.
An off the shelf-D2904 (4 ohm-impedance)/7100 0X(faceplate variant) has a voltage sensitivity of 94.5dB /2.83V and Fs of 520Hz
And if this tweeter can have a sub 500Hz Fs, it wouldn't be unfathomable that Wilson's tweeter, with a, IMHO, enormous midrange sized rear chamber could have an Fs well below 500Hz, and thus handle a crossover point a relatively low XO point, with real music?
Here I am stress testing a smaller 90dB/2.83V 4ohm nominal off-the-shelf dome tweeter at 100dB/1m, with an acoustic LR4 @ 1.2KHz
But even thought we may like to do sine sweeps... to show that this tweeter can manage LR4 1.2KHz, an exponential sine sweep, with a duration of seconds (12 in my case) is not all representative of real music...
Before we can accuse anyone of using a tweeter too low or too loud, let's acquire a silk dome like Wilson Audio do:
attach a big a large rear chamber, like Wilson Audio do:
and crossover at ~1.1-1.2KHz LR4, like Wilson Audio do, in their XLF, and then play some music.
An off the shelf-D2904 (4 ohm-impedance)/7100 0X(faceplate variant) has a voltage sensitivity of 94.5dB /2.83V and Fs of 520Hz
And if this tweeter can have a sub 500Hz Fs, it wouldn't be unfathomable that Wilson's tweeter, with a, IMHO, enormous midrange sized rear chamber could have an Fs well below 500Hz, and thus handle a crossover point a relatively low XO point, with real music?
Here I am stress testing a smaller 90dB/2.83V 4ohm nominal off-the-shelf dome tweeter at 100dB/1m, with an acoustic LR4 @ 1.2KHz
But even thought we may like to do sine sweeps... to show that this tweeter can manage LR4 1.2KHz, an exponential sine sweep, with a duration of seconds (12 in my case) is not all representative of real music...
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Soldered wire to a terminal appears as if it were DIYed. Is that supposed to be original or modded?
Why not just use it through the resonance? By increasing the box size, the response near resonance will droop and have to be compensated for by more drive. The low end will be more extended.. will that be reduced with heavier filtering or will it contribute to needless excursion?
Original.
Those pics are from the later Alexia V model, which was crossed at 1.5KHz, whereas in the Alexandria XLF it appears to be around 1.15KHz.
Reference:
https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/3689-wilson-audio-alexia-v
Your ! suggests that some surprise?
It’s just what I had it mounted in, designed by @fluid
If you don’t need it to meet a large midwoofer, you can mount it in any one of these smaller 4.5” to 8”waveguides designed by our own @augerpro
@stoneeh ‘s look at higher 110dB SPL sine sweep in a 8” waveguide. Also, Polar map measurements here
@AllenB
What David Wilson wanted to do/sell, no one knows because no one knows what was in his head.
But as he was dying from cancer he did write a Life story published in the company website.
Spoiler alert: beautiful blonde wife, gorgeous Ferrari’s and beautiful home grown company of 50+ staff, but no tips on tweeter selection or crossover points discussed.
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