@Snickers-is Unless I'm missing something in your drawing, floating HF diaphragms have been done before on some more exotic hybrid FR applications. The problem is you modulate the LF driver VC motion with the HF and force back EMF into the HF drive output stage, including any existing crossover.
Some very good observations there man, especially re the exuberant high sensitivity and articulate low sensitivity drivers
This I have tried to keep track of when I hear a speaker I like and one that I don’t
I lean towards the boring friend types but with bags of sweet and articulate bass
The current usage of the term Full Range is misused. That which is argued to be a single coil FR unit is a pathetic wide band driver barely capable of realistic spl
Same with coaxial, not FR
Currently the term FR only fits mostly a comprehensive home theatre system or a very comprehensive monitor system
I have not been able to locate a single real FR unit
Not geared to working with a hundred reasons for “can’t”. Give me one reason can and we will make something of it
A real FR unit has been a personal challenge, and one that I intend to focus a significant spacial awareness and construction abilities to
As much as this is all interesting and such, I do need to move some personal projects forward where I am currently struggling with learning acoustic and electronic behaviour. Let me get my tube portable happening, this is really driving me nuts with making uneducated choices, then I will start making some jigs for infusion and such
Speaker development seems more about posturing than fabrication these days
This I have tried to keep track of when I hear a speaker I like and one that I don’t
I lean towards the boring friend types but with bags of sweet and articulate bass
The current usage of the term Full Range is misused. That which is argued to be a single coil FR unit is a pathetic wide band driver barely capable of realistic spl
Same with coaxial, not FR
Currently the term FR only fits mostly a comprehensive home theatre system or a very comprehensive monitor system
I have not been able to locate a single real FR unit
Not geared to working with a hundred reasons for “can’t”. Give me one reason can and we will make something of it
A real FR unit has been a personal challenge, and one that I intend to focus a significant spacial awareness and construction abilities to
As much as this is all interesting and such, I do need to move some personal projects forward where I am currently struggling with learning acoustic and electronic behaviour. Let me get my tube portable happening, this is really driving me nuts with making uneducated choices, then I will start making some jigs for infusion and such
Speaker development seems more about posturing than fabrication these days
Battery lovers "Why would anyone buy a Gas Ford F150?" Gas lovers "Why would anyone buy a Battery Ford F150?"
Replace battery and gas with FR and time alignment; one is more important to this group, the other, that group.
Who you going to sell to? Oh, everybody! Good luck with that -
Replace battery and gas with FR and time alignment; one is more important to this group, the other, that group.
Who you going to sell to? Oh, everybody! Good luck with that -
No Politics involved, just Commercial common sense.
Participating in Forums is for fun, no profit involved, but that must not turn into commercial suicide either.
Intellectual Property is not respected and unenforceable unless you have Million Dollar lawyers backing you.
And even so ....
In the speaker arena, lamented Ted Weber spent decades successfully recreating 50s Jensen speaker sound with modern materials.
Fender bought an initial batch, fitting them , among others, to Eric Clapton's amplifiers.
Next batch?
They brought a few samples to Eminence for copying, and they have been using these until today.
Happens all the time.
There was this Chinese guy pestering everybody at Music Electronics Forum about the most basic guitar Tube amp design, I mean the guy had NO CLUE.
Many forum members, including yours truly, helped him a lot, including very detailed explanations.
He built something, it didn't work well or at all, and asked for troubleshooting.
Today he's known as Wangs Amplifiers, not only selling their own products but also became a low cost OEM manufacturer for many brands.
Hey, he even offered to manufacture my own!
For a price, of course.
No thanks.
Standard "boutique" builder who basically refries and rehashes (if not straight copying) 50s 60s Fender or Marshal designs has nothing to lose , but sending any original work to China is crazy.
Unless they sign an NDA, of course 🤣🤣🤣
Well trying to reach into China for any type of copyright or patent infringement isn't possible with the government themselves keeping these guys from being brought to justice. They protect their own when it comes down to it. Nothing leaves their country if it means making a buck, even if its shady business.
I had a patent ripped off by the same type of person you described. They took it straight to China and started copying it... and very poorly at that. You'll never compete with them on cheap labor. Its not possible.
We see so many cheap speakers come from there. Many of them are junk, but there are a few nice ones. Peerless made by Tymphany is a great example. They make some really nice drivers for cheap. The NE series and the TC9 are some of them. Unfortunately they got greedy and imposed a min qty order of 500 pcs on some of these drivers. Really sad and maddening.
I had a patent ripped off by the same type of person you described. They took it straight to China and started copying it... and very poorly at that. You'll never compete with them on cheap labor. Its not possible.
We see so many cheap speakers come from there. Many of them are junk, but there are a few nice ones. Peerless made by Tymphany is a great example. They make some really nice drivers for cheap. The NE series and the TC9 are some of them. Unfortunately they got greedy and imposed a min qty order of 500 pcs on some of these drivers. Really sad and maddening.
My first reply was more along those lines. Notice the shape of the cone in those BIG pictures from the other member; it's certainly not conical (with flat sides), A key to success, of which I fooled around and found out.
It's been said that at high frequencies, the little "center button" of a Mark Audio driver becomes a dome tweeter, while the rest of the full range speaker cone now acts as a waveguide. Those cone shapes arent conical either; obviously. They spread out pretty quickly toward the edge, which I understand was a evolutionary refinement over previous models. Hint Hint.
Which, along with my own experience trying the worst possible shape, tells me you cant just grab any speaker and slam a tweeter in its throat. You have to be able to specify the shape of the cone to fit the purpose. Or, get lucky. I remember those "ultra-shallow" speakers, that looked like a 12", 1960's transistor radio speaker; virtually flat cone. Those are so old, I cant even find a picture googling for it. I'm pretty sure no one would make such a thing these days...
Which leaves - in my mind - the easiest way is to put the tweeter on a post or bracket, well out of proximity to the speaker cone and time align it electronically. Already been said.
Good to see some of us are interested in constructive. I want to focus on some of your points
Yes we can specify the shape of the cone
Both the Pioneer and Phoenix Gold woofer units have a much flatter cone than other 6.5" units. These two are shallow types. The cone surface is convex from what I could see and feel
I do disagree that electronic time alignment is the only way. As you mention, we know what the electronic options are. There isn't sufficient interest to peruse or pursue a physical solution, but the mechanics of a solution that I can raise checks out (maybe acoustically too)
The direction and tone of this discussion has changed my mind about whether any work from us belongs in the public domain and should we elect to work together in public, this should be a no whiners club. My feelings on DIY are that take it and run with if it helps the quality of your lifestyles. Make one and sell it for a pouch or tobacco or a thousand for a new dress for the Mrs. If you have the talent and ability, than all the power to you
And to you personally JJ, the first to carry forward with the technical discussion, welcome to the club
'Tis true of any point source driver with a basic dustcap, just figure the VC's diameter frequency and it's easy to see where it is on most measurements and above this point is all from the dustcap.
Yes, most are some 'flavor' of curvilinear.
And the ambition, which I kinda admire in the Chinese fellow who went from not knowing which end of the resistor is (+), to producing amplifiers of his own brand, building them for others. More than I ever did in a life, even with all I had going for me.
Thanks!welcome to the club
So, who took that into account and used it to their advantage? Certainly not the guys putting flat felt pads there. Did the Altec 404 / 405s do this? Those now expensive 755As?
I've given you some constructive info. Some complaints are inevitable. I'm getting old and feel like I'm starting to become one of those old people who talk about how everything hurts when I sit down. Unfortunately its more complicated than that.....
There's the Sica 5.5C1.5CP 5" coax and its very good. Take a look at the graph...
I built some small nearfields with these. Likely the best small hifi coax currently available.
Attachments
Lets all buy old KEFs and butcher them for their Uni q's.
Lets cross them to woofer at 300hz, as 300hz is a good frequency.
Lets all go to IKEAs surplus bins and grab thin cuboard handles for mounting our tweeters correct C/C to our middwoofers. Plenty of thread so can be shortened enough I think.
Lets cross them at 300 cause 300 is good.
Lets all find threads that are 3 years old and ask admin to reopen. Good threads I mean. -Not those that are waste of time and wear on ones eyes.
Lets all tell Profiguy that Yamaha NS10s are build of myth, and they dont exist in any sensible studios except to pull out when a misguided wannabe producer who bought the cool aide comes along.
They are excellent for ruining a mix yes.
Cheers!
Lets cross them to woofer at 300hz, as 300hz is a good frequency.
Lets all go to IKEAs surplus bins and grab thin cuboard handles for mounting our tweeters correct C/C to our middwoofers. Plenty of thread so can be shortened enough I think.
Lets cross them at 300 cause 300 is good.
Lets all find threads that are 3 years old and ask admin to reopen. Good threads I mean. -Not those that are waste of time and wear on ones eyes.
Lets all tell Profiguy that Yamaha NS10s are build of myth, and they dont exist in any sensible studios except to pull out when a misguided wannabe producer who bought the cool aide comes along.
They are excellent for ruining a mix yes.
Cheers!
What about concentric domes? A big dome midrange with a tweeter stuck in the middle. This could fix several problems in one shot: waves would no longer converge to high peaks in the middle of the midrange dome because they are terminated by a surround, a lot like a ring radiator. Reduced doppler effect. Less magnetic coupling between the voice coils.
I could draw a sketch, but honestly don't really believe in it enough myself: Apparently, it's really important for tweeter cones to be light as a feather, but 20g+ midwoofer behemoths are fine up to 3kHz. I wish people could make up their minds!
I could draw a sketch, but honestly don't really believe in it enough myself: Apparently, it's really important for tweeter cones to be light as a feather, but 20g+ midwoofer behemoths are fine up to 3kHz. I wish people could make up their minds!
The pioneers and those that later copied them, i.e. statistically everyone to date that's offered 'FR' drivers for sale; yes, ditto the 755* where I learned how to design a discrete three way 'FR' driver with mechanical XOs and multiways in general via reverse engineering it, which in turn were cheapened up by inventing whizzer cones for the upper mids and various other ways to enhance the HF as recording BW was increased over the decades.
*BTW they were never 'cheap' (by my standard) except after the various wars and even then only until they were either scrapped and/or shipped back overseas to folks that appreciated them more than us as a whole.
Depends on the VC dia., bridge design and yet to see any measurements for the various co/tri-ax mobile audio drivers other than the '70s Altec/EV 409, but to mine and other's ears (mostly female for HF) way back when the most egregious looking one was the Sony premium 6.5" design I chose as the best sounding of the bunch in '75. It has a wide flat bridge with a series of small vent holes with a 3" dome mid/HF @ 2 kHz/1st in the center and sounds great to the point where I made quite a few bookshelf speakers with them for others, which inspired others to upgrade their vehicles and some DIYed their own speakers.
In short, no reason they can't be designed to work well, just depends on the design and how much 'weight' one puts on its measurements Vs how well it sounds.
In short, no reason they can't be designed to work well, just depends on the design and how much 'weight' one puts on its measurements Vs how well it sounds.