what is the point of expensive coaxials with ragged response?

Here is a line of thought... It's been said that DSP can help with time alignment. This would have to be if the alignment was out enough to be noticeable in the first place. I am guessing that folks who are proposing this can notice this difference in hearing, right? Especially the more pro and studio types of support for this method

Also guessing that one unit will have some delay applied to align with other

So if the delay was noticeable by the pros in the first place, how do you live with the new latency with one unit. I found it impossible to even use GarageBand over Bluetooth
Is there more gas than substance with this whole issue?

Please don't tell me that the latency will not be noticeable, as that would mean that the alignment could have been left alone
 
Here is a line of thought... It's been said that DSP can help with time alignment. This would have to be if the alignment was out enough to be noticeable in the first place. I am guessing that folks who are proposing this can notice this difference in hearing, right? Especially the more pro and studio types of support for this method

Also guessing that one unit will have some delay applied to align with other

So if the delay was noticeable by the pros in the first place, how do you live with the new latency with one unit. I found it impossible to even use GarageBand over Bluetooth
Is there more gas than substance with this whole issue?

Please don't tell me that the latency will not be noticeable, as that would mean that the alignment could have been left alone

Imagine that the time difference between the mid and the tweeter is 10cm. You then align the midrange to match the tweeter. This would be the same as having a non latency speaker and moving it 10cm backwards. Would that latency be noticable?

This level of latency in one of the drivers would affect the relative phase at the cross over point. This both affects how the drivers sum at the xo point, and how the impulse response sums up a transient. Even if we do not hear the latency itself, we hear the effect on summing between the two drivers, both in frequency domain and time domain.
 
And it affects 3D imaging particularly depth. When so-called acoustic centers are alligned the soundstage can become "holographic" (for lack of a quantitative/waveform description like impulse response).

Simple experiment to give a hint of the delay effect: just tilt head forward and back, compare. (Ears are sort of planar.)

Re: "10cm" induced latency -- intended to compensate for the nonalignment of acoustic centers, where midrange sound and tweeter sound separately originate (in acoustic effect), offset by "10cm"~1/3400sec. Not only is this audible, even 1mm change of relative driver offset (hence phase) is audible using a test tone at the XO frequency.
 
Last edited:
Trying and failing to imagine but all I can imagine is that when you adjust 1 unit for 10cm, that will mean creating a 10cm delay in the electronics so when pressing the keys of the keyboard, some keys will not sound straight away but will have 10cm of latency

Are you typically bothered by this when you listen to a piano from one side? 1,5 meter of latency from the furthest strings, that must be awful, right?
 
Fwiw I hate crossovers smack within the voice band.

Our brains are wired by thousands of years Evolution to detect incredibly subtle nuances in Human voice, we can recognize friends , Family or some very well known voices (Michael Jackson? Trump? Eddie Murphy laughter?) even through distortion, noise, etc.

So splitting that band in the middle, say 800 to 2000 Hz, sending half to a paper cone speaker, half to an absolutely different horn driver sounds bad to me, in principle.
Differences in timbre, "speed", dispersión, etc.
Frequency response errors become minor compared to that.
These can be equalized... but the other differences? ... not so much.

Sadly by their very nature Coaxials can't avoid that.

Not a fanatic of FR speakers per se but they do have an ace in the sleeve relative to that annoying (for me) problem .
I can easily forgive their lack or relative weakness at extreme Bass or highest frequencies.

There is an old "wisdom pearl" running around : "paper voice coil speakers sound best", and there is a grain of truth in that : smooth even "no jumps" response in the voice range.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I don't know, just trying to understand the implications of running electronic delay. My DSP boards won't be here for a while due to holiday in PRC so not something I can just check right now. Having a sound respond a bit after setting it off is different from listening to a spread source, and I do find that latency very awful. Just asking if that would be present
 
Fwiw I hate crossovers smack within the voice band.

Our brains are wired by thousands of years Evolution to detect incredibly subtle nuances in Human voice, we can recognize friends , Family or some very well known voices (Michael Jackson? Trump? Eddie Murphy laughter?) even through distortion, noise, etc.

So splitting that band in the middle, say 800 to 2000 Hz, sending half to a paper cone speaker, half to an absolutely different horn driver sounds bad to me, in principle.
Differences in timbre, "speed", dispersión, etc.
Frequency response errors become minor compared to that.
These can be equalized... but the other differences? ... not so much.

Sadly by their very nature Coaxials can't avoid that.
For me, this was an eye-opener around 15yrs ago when I placed a pair of FR based HT speakers next to my beloved music 2-ways. Since that day, the 2-ways have been wrapped in plastic and stored at my folk's place and have pushed those same FR speakers into all sorts of roles

I am considering the idea of a coaxial that xovers around 500hz though, I like the sound of all the audible bass coming from the same point as the rest of the music. A reason why I can only enjoy drum and bass type dub in the car and since the car is not a keeper, an intricate install there is not an option. Nest car yes, FR drivers on in pod on the A pillars

But coming back to this, taking long looks at the pic that I post of the Pioneers with the stem and the coincident type drivers in the OP

Should I take note that the sound of from the woofer comes from the apex at the pole rather than the whole surface of the woofer cone including the leading edges and surround? Is this what makes the Pioneer's physical alignment incorrect over the correct ones in the high-end drivers and the Phoenix Gold?
 
@randy Top of picture is what I will fix on top of speedometer in my car. Crossed to Door speakers as "sub"woofers.
Cheers!



IMG_20240210_102230.jpg
 
0.3 milliseconds
Is that all that's going to be? So I have nothing to worry about using delay? Then why worry about applying the delay in the first place? Keep in mind that my only experience with latency is my old interface that lasted a month and a Bluetooth mixer that is useless. Applying delay to driver units is something new

Do you and others have trouble telling the difference between a query and a claim?
 
@randy Top of picture is what I will fix on top of speedometer in my car. Crossed to Door speakers as "sub"woofers.
Cheers!



View attachment 1272005
Guerilla, I am not usually easily impressed

That is @#$#@@$% awesome! I can't believe that never occurred to me. I am sure there are drivers in that bunch of all sorts of FR units that I got in to eval for my tube portable. Please dont mind if I fit something like that to my car. Genius!
 
Trying and failing to imagine but all I can imagine is that when you adjust 1 unit for 10cm, that will mean creating a 10cm delay in the electronics so when pressing the keys of the keyboard, some keys will not sound straight away but will have 10cm of latency
but if you don't move the forward driver (the tweeter) back in time to align with the woofer, sounds from the tweeter will arrive before those issued at the same time from the woofer, which is not how the sound was originally recorded/mixed

Its the misalignment of the drivers that introduces the latency error for a band and the DSP that corrects it, not vice-versa
 
but if you don't move the forward driver (the tweeter) back in time to align with the woofer, sounds from the tweeter will arrive before those issued at the same time from the woofer, which is not how the sound was originally recorded/mixed

Its the misalignment of the drivers that introduces the latency error for a band and the DSP that corrects it, not vice-versa
Thats not my question but thanks for trying. I meant, would there be a noticeable delay from triggering a sound and hearing it