To expand a bit. When I went to a double woofer the little Vifa had a hard time keeping up. Of course you can remove the series resistor to match levels, but it doesn’t sound great. I suspect the same would be true with an efficient 18” woofer. That’s why John used the Peerless NE123. John liked the 123 a lot. I never got to hear it.
That sounds terrific.
I have the outmost respect for the choices John made. Never have I had loudspeakers such as these.
The Seas is good too, but it is very directive and doesn't sound as good outside the sweet spot. The original design is better though it is less efficient.
How did John come up with these designs? lots of trial and error?
I have the outmost respect for the choices John made. Never have I had loudspeakers such as these.
The Seas is good too, but it is very directive and doesn't sound as good outside the sweet spot. The original design is better though it is less efficient.
How did John come up with these designs? lots of trial and error?
Yes, lots and lots of trial and error until he got good at it. He built 100s of speakers. Since I met him 20 years ago he already could guess a good design and crossover. He would be 90% of the way there on the first try. His first tries were better than most people could do on a final project.
John also had very good sense what drivers worked well together. About every two weeks he’d tell me about some great new driver, usually at a budget price. John would buy tweeters by the case, sometimes woofers. He would occasionally buy some cheap driver that he had high hopes for and it would disappoint him. Those were usually Pyle. One day he was ranting about some Pyle woofers he just bought . The rant reminded me of Sgt. Carter yelling at Gomer Pyle, so I called him Sarge forever after that.
John also had very good sense what drivers worked well together. About every two weeks he’d tell me about some great new driver, usually at a budget price. John would buy tweeters by the case, sometimes woofers. He would occasionally buy some cheap driver that he had high hopes for and it would disappoint him. Those were usually Pyle. One day he was ranting about some Pyle woofers he just bought . The rant reminded me of Sgt. Carter yelling at Gomer Pyle, so I called him Sarge forever after that.
I've been toying with the idea of making a version of the ultras with the style of vintage loudspeakers like the Grundig or these Tannoy I have attached here as the last image. I'm of course not making a closed box, I'm instead covering the back in fabric. The blue is the fabric.
Is the 11 cm in the top of my proposed model going to be a problem?
And how about lifting it from the floor?
Is the 11 cm in the top of my proposed model going to be a problem?
And how about lifting it from the floor?
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Those are very nice looking, I wish that I had done that.
The top triangle will not be a problem. And it looks like you have some wings, right? You do want get it off the floor for proper low mid balance.
It’s good to experiment, but know that if you change the baffle shape or size, you’ll need to adjust the crossover. Usually that will be the resistors on the tweeter, but if you change a lot, other crossover parts will shift.
The top triangle will not be a problem. And it looks like you have some wings, right? You do want get it off the floor for proper low mid balance.
It’s good to experiment, but know that if you change the baffle shape or size, you’ll need to adjust the crossover. Usually that will be the resistors on the tweeter, but if you change a lot, other crossover parts will shift.
Thanks for posting that. You have taken the Manzanita concept and adapted it to other drivers. Nice to see. The basic Manzanita is a good platform and place to start if you want to explore and experiment with OB.
Thanks. You could still do it you know
I was worried about the top actually being a horizontal wing.
The wings are just not in 90 degree angle, but 135, but they are the same length.
I did not know that lifting it would improve the middle.
The baffle size is the same. Is there some rules to how things will shift?
I'm going to try out the newer alternative units.
I was worried about the top actually being a horizontal wing.
The wings are just not in 90 degree angle, but 135, but they are the same length.
I did not know that lifting it would improve the middle.
The baffle size is the same. Is there some rules to how things will shift?
I'm going to try out the newer alternative units.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/index.html
The Manzanita should be approximately 24-40cm off the floor, about standard speaker stand height. Or get the tweeter near ear level when you are seated.
I’m sure some other builders can help you with their experience.
The Manzanita should be approximately 24-40cm off the floor, about standard speaker stand height. Or get the tweeter near ear level when you are seated.
I’m sure some other builders can help you with their experience.
I can just say that not running the FR out of phase sounds horrible. I had forgotten that.
Also, having a structure blocking the top of the baffle is not a good thing.
What is it that happens when the wings are cut down around the FR driver?
So far I think I prefer the Seas FA22RCZ driver to the NE123W-08. But the lack of beaming is nice.
Speaking of alternatives; did someone try using Alpair drivers?
Also, having a structure blocking the top of the baffle is not a good thing.
What is it that happens when the wings are cut down around the FR driver?
So far I think I prefer the Seas FA22RCZ driver to the NE123W-08. But the lack of beaming is nice.
Speaking of alternatives; did someone try using Alpair drivers?
Just got my Frankenstein Manzi's up and running and all I can say is many thanks to John & Pano.
If you have some similar parts and might be hesitating, don't!
The design is extremely flexible as stated. Using Eminence Delta 15 LFA with the TC9f because I had them from other projects.
v2 of my Lunchbox Amp is MiniDSP 2x4 v1.5 (2010) with 4ch x TPA3255. Nothing between the amp and the drivers for now.
For the record, Pano's recommendation of DSP set at 70hz (70 to 110 works) 6dB LP & 750hz 6dB HP works a treat.
Don't forget to change the phase of the TC9f and add attenuation - 3dB & -3dB@1000hz (900 to 1200hz) High Shelf to suit.
Also added 0.28ms delay (0.096m) on the TC9f to align the approx voice coil offset, you will hear it.
Before I get roasted, I operate a CNC and I cut plain old circles all day long, I couldn't help but add a teeny weeny waveguide just for fun. Just remember this is v1... And yes, I extended the baffle all the way to the floor, it sounds amazing but I will try the proper short version... did I mention I have excessive amounts of plywood offcuts to play with?
Cheers to all
If you have some similar parts and might be hesitating, don't!
The design is extremely flexible as stated. Using Eminence Delta 15 LFA with the TC9f because I had them from other projects.
v2 of my Lunchbox Amp is MiniDSP 2x4 v1.5 (2010) with 4ch x TPA3255. Nothing between the amp and the drivers for now.
For the record, Pano's recommendation of DSP set at 70hz (70 to 110 works) 6dB LP & 750hz 6dB HP works a treat.
Don't forget to change the phase of the TC9f and add attenuation - 3dB & -3dB@1000hz (900 to 1200hz) High Shelf to suit.
Also added 0.28ms delay (0.096m) on the TC9f to align the approx voice coil offset, you will hear it.
Before I get roasted, I operate a CNC and I cut plain old circles all day long, I couldn't help but add a teeny weeny waveguide just for fun. Just remember this is v1... And yes, I extended the baffle all the way to the floor, it sounds amazing but I will try the proper short version... did I mention I have excessive amounts of plywood offcuts to play with?
Cheers to all
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Ha ha! When I read "Frankenstein" at the top and then scrolled down to the photo - well I was expecting something a little more monsterish. What you have is a sort of Utra-2 Manzi. Shows what you can do will skills, tools and experience. 
Glad to hear that the DSP is working out for you as the values I gave are best estimates based on the passive. You might try a ~0.25 Ohm resistor in series with the woofer to imitate the Q change that comes from the big inductor's DCR. A 10 or 15 watt will do, as it will dissipate only about 3% of the total power.
John liked the Eminence Delta drivers and had done some projects with them, including a Manzanita version, IIRC. Don't hesitate to much around with the crossover, as you have a rather different woofer and the tweeter in a waveguide - along with the big baffle. That's going to changes efficiencies, as you have already seen.
Thanks for building and posting the FrankenManzie!
Glad to hear that the DSP is working out for you as the values I gave are best estimates based on the passive. You might try a ~0.25 Ohm resistor in series with the woofer to imitate the Q change that comes from the big inductor's DCR. A 10 or 15 watt will do, as it will dissipate only about 3% of the total power.
John liked the Eminence Delta drivers and had done some projects with them, including a Manzanita version, IIRC. Don't hesitate to much around with the crossover, as you have a rather different woofer and the tweeter in a waveguide - along with the big baffle. That's going to changes efficiencies, as you have already seen.
Thanks for building and posting the FrankenManzie!
Yah i wanted to be clear that i had knowingly defiled the Manzi but ment no disrespect so FrankenManzi seems appropriate.
The upper baffle and drivers offsets all measure as normal, just the lower baffle is extended and both drivers are rear mounted.
The waveguide is simply a constant path from the initial tc9f surround outer to 5mm away from where the woofer fillet starts, through the 18mm ply.
The next plan is to double the baffle thickness to 36mm (2x18), this will look essentially the same from the front, using hardwood ply and possibly experiment with wing depth.
Before that i will break out the mic and get some measurments to see what effect the waveguide has on the tc9f and experiment with the crossover once i know more.
I am ordering the 0.25Ohm resistors as we speak and will update.
Cheers
The upper baffle and drivers offsets all measure as normal, just the lower baffle is extended and both drivers are rear mounted.
The waveguide is simply a constant path from the initial tc9f surround outer to 5mm away from where the woofer fillet starts, through the 18mm ply.
The next plan is to double the baffle thickness to 36mm (2x18), this will look essentially the same from the front, using hardwood ply and possibly experiment with wing depth.
Before that i will break out the mic and get some measurments to see what effect the waveguide has on the tc9f and experiment with the crossover once i know more.
I am ordering the 0.25Ohm resistors as we speak and will update.
Cheers
I did a quick version of the design I mentioned earlier.
With the FSL-1830R03-08 and NE123W-08 drivers, The crossover is the same, though very little dampening of the full range.
The NE123W-08 had absolutely no top end, so I ended up replacing it with a Markaudio MAOP-10.2 instead. A nice update from the beaming characteristics of the SEAS FA22RCZ I had in the old Ultra version. The MAOP is not a nice construction having the basket made entirely out of plastic, but sound is fine.
It looks enormous with the wings this way. The top plate sounded horrible so it came off. I will probably also not cover the back in fabric as I initially intended.
I'm a fan of the big woofer, and the better efficency. Unfortunately I didn't keep the old version assembled for comparison, having only components for one set of crossovers.
In hindsight I would probably have been better off keeping the NE123W-08 and adding a ribbon tweeter to it.
Did anyone ever find an affordable dipole ribbon tweeter?
With the FSL-1830R03-08 and NE123W-08 drivers, The crossover is the same, though very little dampening of the full range.
The NE123W-08 had absolutely no top end, so I ended up replacing it with a Markaudio MAOP-10.2 instead. A nice update from the beaming characteristics of the SEAS FA22RCZ I had in the old Ultra version. The MAOP is not a nice construction having the basket made entirely out of plastic, but sound is fine.
It looks enormous with the wings this way. The top plate sounded horrible so it came off. I will probably also not cover the back in fabric as I initially intended.
I'm a fan of the big woofer, and the better efficency. Unfortunately I didn't keep the old version assembled for comparison, having only components for one set of crossovers.
In hindsight I would probably have been better off keeping the NE123W-08 and adding a ribbon tweeter to it.
Did anyone ever find an affordable dipole ribbon tweeter?
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It can be stressed, but these are very stiff, highly non-resonant baskets. The new plastic is a bit better but i really like how the Alpair baskets work. AFAIC better than most Al and steel. And quite a bit pricier to make.
dave
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