From the top of my head down the memory lane of this thread few times here and there were mentioned about the high end roll off of TC9 as is usually the case with many wide banders. This too has been my experience. I craved for that high end sharpness.
Then I came across a video of Danny Richie (GR Research) wherein he mentioned something in the line of additional tweeter if needed can be done so facing/pointing upwards. Then started my trials with the limited parts I have on hand.
I'm far from being a crossover expert. For all my crossover works all I did was go about trying and listening after going through Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement by @AllenB
I ended up with a Dayton ND25TA crossed very high using third order. Works for me! for now. The sharp sound of the cymbals which I love/crave for is coming through. I'm loving it!
Has anyone else tried this?
Then I came across a video of Danny Richie (GR Research) wherein he mentioned something in the line of additional tweeter if needed can be done so facing/pointing upwards. Then started my trials with the limited parts I have on hand.
I'm far from being a crossover expert. For all my crossover works all I did was go about trying and listening after going through Introduction to designing crossovers without measurement by @AllenB
I ended up with a Dayton ND25TA crossed very high using third order. Works for me! for now. The sharp sound of the cymbals which I love/crave for is coming through. I'm loving it!
Has anyone else tried this?
Embarrassed to even post, but need to rip this bandaid off.. I actually ordered the parts for making a pair of the Ultras back in January of 2024 and here we are in June of '25 and I still haven't built them yet! Lots of excuses, some even valid, but about to restart this project. First critical consideration (at least in my mind) is that I have NO woodworking skills and basically have a hand saw, a hammer, and just bought a hand router. I have a friend who is pretty good with wood but he had no space until just last week rented out a large storage unit that he is now setting up with a table saw, etc.
Given all this time has passed, may I ask this to @Pano and @barryso and all the other skilled DIYers here: IF you were to build a new Manzanita Ultra starting today, would you use a different tweeter than the Peerless TC9FD18-08 (that I bought)?? A strong secondary reason for this question is because I have NO idea how I can flush mount the TC9 and so would greatly prefer a round fullrange. With the new router and enough YouTube videos I can venture forth routing and rebating using a circle jig I also just bought, but the much more complex (for me) rectangular type shape of the TC9 has me in paralysis. Trying to search thru this tread again I see one potential round tweeter alternative is the Dayton Audio PS95-8 3.5", but there may be much better options out there that I'll defer to the experts here.
Thanks in advance,
Procrastinator David
Given all this time has passed, may I ask this to @Pano and @barryso and all the other skilled DIYers here: IF you were to build a new Manzanita Ultra starting today, would you use a different tweeter than the Peerless TC9FD18-08 (that I bought)?? A strong secondary reason for this question is because I have NO idea how I can flush mount the TC9 and so would greatly prefer a round fullrange. With the new router and enough YouTube videos I can venture forth routing and rebating using a circle jig I also just bought, but the much more complex (for me) rectangular type shape of the TC9 has me in paralysis. Trying to search thru this tread again I see one potential round tweeter alternative is the Dayton Audio PS95-8 3.5", but there may be much better options out there that I'll defer to the experts here.
Thanks in advance,
Procrastinator David
Hi David, thanks for posting.
If you have no woodworking skills, you picked the right project! 😀 John Busch designed this to be super easy to build.
As for mounting the Vifa, you can make a sub baffle for it. I will try to describe it for you: Where the Vifa goes make a hole bigger than the Vifa. Then grab a piece thin board, like hardboard or ~1/4” ply. Make a round cutout in that thin piece for your Vifa. Now the Vifa is mounted on a thin board.
Take that thin board and mount it over the large hole you made in the large baffle. Voila! You now have the Vifa mounted but with a large cutout in the main, thick baffle.
If you want to make it look pretty (you should) then practice on scrap with your router. Make the thin Vifa baffle round and a little bigger that the cutout in the main baffle. Route an insert around edge the big hole in the main baffle that is the same diameter as your thin Vifa baffle. The idea being that you will inset the thin baffle flush into the thick baffle.
That may be hard to visualize from a text description, but I’m pretty sure that there are photos of this idea somwhere in the thread.
I might be able to draw it for you if you need that.
If you have no woodworking skills, you picked the right project! 😀 John Busch designed this to be super easy to build.
As for mounting the Vifa, you can make a sub baffle for it. I will try to describe it for you: Where the Vifa goes make a hole bigger than the Vifa. Then grab a piece thin board, like hardboard or ~1/4” ply. Make a round cutout in that thin piece for your Vifa. Now the Vifa is mounted on a thin board.
Take that thin board and mount it over the large hole you made in the large baffle. Voila! You now have the Vifa mounted but with a large cutout in the main, thick baffle.
If you want to make it look pretty (you should) then practice on scrap with your router. Make the thin Vifa baffle round and a little bigger that the cutout in the main baffle. Route an insert around edge the big hole in the main baffle that is the same diameter as your thin Vifa baffle. The idea being that you will inset the thin baffle flush into the thick baffle.
That may be hard to visualize from a text description, but I’m pretty sure that there are photos of this idea somwhere in the thread.
I might be able to draw it for you if you need that.
Some of us have less than no woodworking skills. So the drivers were just mounted proud on the front of the baffle and a 8" black felt ring was put around the Vifa. So the Vifa is now flush and the driver looks a lot larger and balances out with the woofer a lot better.
David,
Of course you can use other small full rangers instead of the Vifa, but then you'll need to re-model the xo, much more difficult task than following Pano's and barryso's advice.
I would personally use a sub baffle but mount the driver from the back, and chamfer the front round hole with a router.
This will also somewhat help with time alignment which for me is important.
One such example below, courtesy of CooperH.
Of course you can use other small full rangers instead of the Vifa, but then you'll need to re-model the xo, much more difficult task than following Pano's and barryso's advice.
I would personally use a sub baffle but mount the driver from the back, and chamfer the front round hole with a router.
This will also somewhat help with time alignment which for me is important.
One such example below, courtesy of CooperH.
Attachments
Thank you Pano and barryso and Stanislav for the replies! First comment/observation - no one has suggested a newer/better/rounder fullrange (yet)!...
@Pano : I've noodled on your suggestion some and I guess I'm not looking at it quite correctly. So the TC9 takes a 3" hole and is 3.52" diagonal center screw hole to center screw hole, The mounting flange appear to be 3.15mm or 1/8" thick according to the spec sheet. I also believe the speaker outer most frame radius is 49mm, so that makes this a 98mm diameter speaker which is 3.86" So using your idea Pano, I could get some 1/4" plywood and then cut our a "donut" with the inner diameter is 3" and say 4" for the outer diameter?? Alright, if I surface mount the TC9 to this donut and then do a 1" x 1/4" deep rebate around the OB tweeter opening, this would then just fit in. However, this would still have the TC9 1/8" above the baffle so not really flush. I can't see how doing a rear mount to the 1/4" donut would work either, so I guess I'm not following.. sorry.
@barryso : The felt is interesting. So just cut the round 3" hole in the baffle and then cut a donut of felt say 3" inner and 6" outer and then just surface mount the TC9 and it will essentially crush the felt flat around the frame and the felt will mitigate any diffraction stuff? Hmmm.
@Stanislav : That's a different approach. If I were to do something like this I'd front flush mount the woofer. However, that is a very large "roundover" for the back mounted TC9 so not sure what it would take to do that much and essentially create a waveguide for the TC9, but doesn't that create a whole new set of potentially different frequency responses for the mids to highs and thus may require crossover adjustments, etc??
Here's a thought I've had after going thru the above: what if I do a circle rebate (1/8" deep) out to the effective diameter of the TC9 frame which I believe is 3.86", so say 3.9"+? Then the TC9 should drop right in flush, correct? Then, after mounting the TC9 fill in the four straight areas of the frame with wood filler. Sand, and then stain. The filler will likely not match/look the same as the BB surface ply, but would this not effectively create a custom rebate of the TC9?? Or is this not a good thing to do?
Cheers - David
@Pano : I've noodled on your suggestion some and I guess I'm not looking at it quite correctly. So the TC9 takes a 3" hole and is 3.52" diagonal center screw hole to center screw hole, The mounting flange appear to be 3.15mm or 1/8" thick according to the spec sheet. I also believe the speaker outer most frame radius is 49mm, so that makes this a 98mm diameter speaker which is 3.86" So using your idea Pano, I could get some 1/4" plywood and then cut our a "donut" with the inner diameter is 3" and say 4" for the outer diameter?? Alright, if I surface mount the TC9 to this donut and then do a 1" x 1/4" deep rebate around the OB tweeter opening, this would then just fit in. However, this would still have the TC9 1/8" above the baffle so not really flush. I can't see how doing a rear mount to the 1/4" donut would work either, so I guess I'm not following.. sorry.
@barryso : The felt is interesting. So just cut the round 3" hole in the baffle and then cut a donut of felt say 3" inner and 6" outer and then just surface mount the TC9 and it will essentially crush the felt flat around the frame and the felt will mitigate any diffraction stuff? Hmmm.
@Stanislav : That's a different approach. If I were to do something like this I'd front flush mount the woofer. However, that is a very large "roundover" for the back mounted TC9 so not sure what it would take to do that much and essentially create a waveguide for the TC9, but doesn't that create a whole new set of potentially different frequency responses for the mids to highs and thus may require crossover adjustments, etc??
Here's a thought I've had after going thru the above: what if I do a circle rebate (1/8" deep) out to the effective diameter of the TC9 frame which I believe is 3.86", so say 3.9"+? Then the TC9 should drop right in flush, correct? Then, after mounting the TC9 fill in the four straight areas of the frame with wood filler. Sand, and then stain. The filler will likely not match/look the same as the BB surface ply, but would this not effectively create a custom rebate of the TC9?? Or is this not a good thing to do?
Cheers - David
Hi David,
I just mounted the Vifa normally and cut the felt to be flush with it's edges. Pretty low tech. The felt can be removed at any time.
As for a Vifa replacement, as mentioned before, it would require redesigning the crossover. That was John's realm and he was REALLY good at it. He had several designs using other drivers but he had those versions for sale and didn't give away the crossover designs.
I just mounted the Vifa normally and cut the felt to be flush with it's edges. Pretty low tech. The felt can be removed at any time.
As for a Vifa replacement, as mentioned before, it would require redesigning the crossover. That was John's realm and he was REALLY good at it. He had several designs using other drivers but he had those versions for sale and didn't give away the crossover designs.
Hi David,
You could also consider making a router template.
Bill Schneider offers a good guide on how to make non-circular recesses.
https://www.afterness.com/audio/routing_truncated_recesses.html
If you have access to a 3D printer then it is easier to just print the template.
Close-up of the recess with template still in place
Hope that helps,
David
You could also consider making a router template.
Bill Schneider offers a good guide on how to make non-circular recesses.
https://www.afterness.com/audio/routing_truncated_recesses.html
If you have access to a 3D printer then it is easier to just print the template.
Close-up of the recess with template still in place
Hope that helps,
David
dgmartin - thank you for that link on making templates - pretty easy to follow. My wood guy said today he won't have the storage unit ready until September/October :-( I have a neighbor with a table saw...may be time to bring over a couple of beers!
I'm slowly collecting the parts to build this speaker with the Peerless woofer (assuming Parts Express ever gets stock). Think I'm going to start building the baffle soonish. I was thinking about using a walnut live edge and pour resin to create a "river baffle", similar to the river tables folks make. I've seen this done a few times for box speakers, but haven't seen any examples with an OB speaker. Just wondering if this would affect the sound quality in a negative way, or if there is some other reason why it wouldn't go over well. Any thoughts? Thanks for your help, really excited to throw this together.
Also @dgmartin Just curious if you have that template shared any where like thingiverse (I couldn't find it in the usual spots that I look for stl files). Was thinking about creating a template to 3d print, but if one exists already I do enjoy stealing other people's work 🙂
Also @dgmartin Just curious if you have that template shared any where like thingiverse (I couldn't find it in the usual spots that I look for stl files). Was thinking about creating a template to 3d print, but if one exists already I do enjoy stealing other people's work 🙂
I think the live edge is a good idea, I have thought about but never seen it done.
It won’t make much difference in the bass, but will help break up symmetry in upper mids and highs. You should keep the asymmetric rear wings.
The Peerless has been out of stock for a long time. Are there any other US suppliers?
It won’t make much difference in the bass, but will help break up symmetry in upper mids and highs. You should keep the asymmetric rear wings.
The Peerless has been out of stock for a long time. Are there any other US suppliers?
I have looked for other suppliers and not found any. In theory Parts is saying the woofer should be back in stock in September. There are a few places in the UK that will ship to the US it looks like that have them in stock currently, however the whole Tariff situation constantly changing I was hoping to avoid that mess. If I get to impatient I will just go with the 15inch woofer. Was just hoping for the smaller footprint.
Is there a post that describes the asymmetric wings and gives dimensions? I assume skinnier on top and full depth on the bottom? Or is one wing just plain larger then the other? Thanks for the reply @Pano appreciate it!
Is there a post that describes the asymmetric wings and gives dimensions? I assume skinnier on top and full depth on the bottom? Or is one wing just plain larger then the other? Thanks for the reply @Pano appreciate it!
Post #2500 will be some help. The original builds that John and I did had a triangular wing on one side, a short wing on the other. That worked well.
No you won’t find it anywhere but I would be happy to share the STL file here.
Depending on the finish you are planning to use I could slightly oversize the cutout to allow for the paint or varnish thickness… Just let me know!
See attached the STL file as well as a STEP file for easier modification. It has 0.5mm offset from the measured dimensions (the flat width matching the datasheet to .1mm). I'm using an Amana 45475-S Carbide Tipped Flush Plunge Template which is 3/8in diameter.
Awesome thank you so much for including the step file. Added bonus. Really appreciate the help!
Great idea and thanks for asking @flodyain99 about 3D printing a TC9 template. Thank you @dgmartin for the .STL file!!
I've gone to a recommended Web site to get a quote. When I upload the .stl file it shows the template dimensions to be 113.50mm x 131.11mm x 8.00mm I'd like to confirm the template is not perfectly round?? If I may, a Online place I found for the USA using local printers that is really inexpensive is advancedadditiveinnovations dot com which may be useful for someone else without their own 3Dprinter.
Also since this will be my first attempt at using a router template, a noob question: how do you center the template over the center pilot hole of the tweeter/TC9 location? An easy method, or is it just eyeballing and ruler measuring until it looks centered? I don't think the edges of the template are wide enough to support using clamps while routering, so what is the recommended way to hold it in place?
Thanks again! David
I've gone to a recommended Web site to get a quote. When I upload the .stl file it shows the template dimensions to be 113.50mm x 131.11mm x 8.00mm I'd like to confirm the template is not perfectly round?? If I may, a Online place I found for the USA using local printers that is really inexpensive is advancedadditiveinnovations dot com which may be useful for someone else without their own 3Dprinter.
Also since this will be my first attempt at using a router template, a noob question: how do you center the template over the center pilot hole of the tweeter/TC9 location? An easy method, or is it just eyeballing and ruler measuring until it looks centered? I don't think the edges of the template are wide enough to support using clamps while routering, so what is the recommended way to hold it in place?
Thanks again! David
Regarding the template dimensions:
I get the same bounding box dimensions as you in my Slicer tool: In the CAD the outer profile is a perfect circle, but STL will always approximate the circle by a Polygon. This STL export was using (1) a coarse resolution and (2) the resolution was such that the number of segments was not divisible by 4. So one dimension was the distance along vertices (113.5) and the other dimension the distance across flats (113.11). In other words, a coarser STL where the number of segments is reduced by 2 would not check condition (2) above and have the expected square bounding box (despite being coarser).
I attached a finer STL whose dimensions will be computed as 113.5x113.5mm by the slicer. In reality this is still a polygon and the distance between flats is still < 113.5mm, but since the number of segments is divisible by 4 there are no segments parallel to the axis system so its will fit in a square (113.5x113.5) bounding box as expected. In Practice it does not make a difference since both will fit into the same hole (more below).
On using the Template:
The template was originally designed to be hot-glued in a piece of wood (see Post 3668) such that distances from the edges corresponds to the TC9 location in the baffle to facilitate alignment. The cutout for the template should be 4.5in, leaving 1/32in of clearance on the diameter. The piece of wood provides a continuous and stable surface to support the router base and prevent it from tipping into nearby large woofer cutouts or outside baffle when the cutout is near the edges. I secure the template to the baffle using double-sided tape. The idea was to be able to re-use the plastic template in different wood pieces catering for different driver position on the baffle depending on the design.
In practice I'm just centering the template over the cutout by eye. This is much easier than it seems since you are effectively "balancing" the distance between the cutout and the TC9 recess "flats". Since this distance is less than 5mm our eyes are pretty good perceiving the "unbalance" and the positioning error can easily be within ±0.5mm. Of course that introduces human (skill) factor but someone may start with a slightly oversized cutout to have more margin for positioning error.
Hope that helps!
I get the same bounding box dimensions as you in my Slicer tool: In the CAD the outer profile is a perfect circle, but STL will always approximate the circle by a Polygon. This STL export was using (1) a coarse resolution and (2) the resolution was such that the number of segments was not divisible by 4. So one dimension was the distance along vertices (113.5) and the other dimension the distance across flats (113.11). In other words, a coarser STL where the number of segments is reduced by 2 would not check condition (2) above and have the expected square bounding box (despite being coarser).
I attached a finer STL whose dimensions will be computed as 113.5x113.5mm by the slicer. In reality this is still a polygon and the distance between flats is still < 113.5mm, but since the number of segments is divisible by 4 there are no segments parallel to the axis system so its will fit in a square (113.5x113.5) bounding box as expected. In Practice it does not make a difference since both will fit into the same hole (more below).
On using the Template:
The template was originally designed to be hot-glued in a piece of wood (see Post 3668) such that distances from the edges corresponds to the TC9 location in the baffle to facilitate alignment. The cutout for the template should be 4.5in, leaving 1/32in of clearance on the diameter. The piece of wood provides a continuous and stable surface to support the router base and prevent it from tipping into nearby large woofer cutouts or outside baffle when the cutout is near the edges. I secure the template to the baffle using double-sided tape. The idea was to be able to re-use the plastic template in different wood pieces catering for different driver position on the baffle depending on the design.
In practice I'm just centering the template over the cutout by eye. This is much easier than it seems since you are effectively "balancing" the distance between the cutout and the TC9 recess "flats". Since this distance is less than 5mm our eyes are pretty good perceiving the "unbalance" and the positioning error can easily be within ±0.5mm. Of course that introduces human (skill) factor but someone may start with a slightly oversized cutout to have more margin for positioning error.
Hope that helps!