Thanks guys for all that research and effort.
The CMCDs for sure are a well designed bunch of drivers and technology. I'm familiar with the 165H based setups. They sound very good for what they are, just a bit power restricted and lacking lower mid extension for use with more shallow slope filters. They also require more FR shaping to flatten, which isn't so easy with passive networks. The other issue is physical size and trying to minimize driver spacing.
The JBL 2261H still is my favorite for several reasons. Its very good for high power direct radiating use, as JBL has designed this driver for their large format line arrays. The differential VC design helps with linearity and low distortion in the lower mids. I've heard this driver in their higher end floor monitors and its very clean and defined in its passband. I just wish it was cheaper.
I've been looking at Beymas new carbon fiber cone drivers and am impressed but they cost way more than I can afford. The other higher end Beyma and 18Sound drivers can also work well for me, but they don't have an 8 or 10 which is as clean as the 2261h from well under 300 up to 1k. It also handles a ton of power for a single smaller driver, plus it has a proven track record in terms of durability.
Celestion has a few decent 8" midbass drivers and a great 6" cone mid. They're very affordable too. The CF1025C may be an option.
The 195h and 196h are just eminence stuff made for JBL. These sealed back mids are not that clean sounding, especially compared to anything else made by JBL themselves. The exception is the Audax based 165h, which does well in the smaller mid WGs. The 1.5" VC won't hold up power wise. This is where the 2169h could be a possibility.
Two smaller 6" drivers positioned correctly on the baffle may still be very practical and I haven't dismissed using SB 6MW150D mids in this configuration just yet. The crossover frequencies will govern this as a solution and hopefully won't create problems off axis. A 10" still appears the best solution given my requirements.
The CMCDs for sure are a well designed bunch of drivers and technology. I'm familiar with the 165H based setups. They sound very good for what they are, just a bit power restricted and lacking lower mid extension for use with more shallow slope filters. They also require more FR shaping to flatten, which isn't so easy with passive networks. The other issue is physical size and trying to minimize driver spacing.
The JBL 2261H still is my favorite for several reasons. Its very good for high power direct radiating use, as JBL has designed this driver for their large format line arrays. The differential VC design helps with linearity and low distortion in the lower mids. I've heard this driver in their higher end floor monitors and its very clean and defined in its passband. I just wish it was cheaper.
I've been looking at Beymas new carbon fiber cone drivers and am impressed but they cost way more than I can afford. The other higher end Beyma and 18Sound drivers can also work well for me, but they don't have an 8 or 10 which is as clean as the 2261h from well under 300 up to 1k. It also handles a ton of power for a single smaller driver, plus it has a proven track record in terms of durability.
Celestion has a few decent 8" midbass drivers and a great 6" cone mid. They're very affordable too. The CF1025C may be an option.
The 195h and 196h are just eminence stuff made for JBL. These sealed back mids are not that clean sounding, especially compared to anything else made by JBL themselves. The exception is the Audax based 165h, which does well in the smaller mid WGs. The 1.5" VC won't hold up power wise. This is where the 2169h could be a possibility.
Two smaller 6" drivers positioned correctly on the baffle may still be very practical and I haven't dismissed using SB 6MW150D mids in this configuration just yet. The crossover frequencies will govern this as a solution and hopefully won't create problems off axis. A 10" still appears the best solution given my requirements.
Not that they are cheap but i think AE TD10M deserve to be in this thread. They check all of your boxes other than price.
https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td10m/
Quite a nice motor there. Aluminium sleeve on the outside of the coil, copper on the inside. I'm betting on ultra low distortion.
https://aespeakers.com/shop/td/td10m/
Quite a nice motor there. Aluminium sleeve on the outside of the coil, copper on the inside. I'm betting on ultra low distortion.
Last edited:
I'd need a pair of those to make up for sensitivity. The other problem is the big rubber surround that causes problems in the midrange.
The smaller SB midbass pushes has the surround reflection higher up out of band. I have 4 of them already, so they may be an option if I can come up with a smart way to configure the baffle layout. They run a larger 2" copper winding coil on fiberglass former, so the power handling is more than adequate for a pair in parallel.
I wish ATC still sold 3" domes to the public. They are by far the best sounding mid dome which are durable enough to cope with the power. I'd have to HP them around 600+ hz to keep them from becoming too non-linear at max SPLs, but it would allow for a larger midbass running a lower LP, potentially eliminating the need for a separate midbass with 2 smaller LF drivers.
The smaller SB midbass pushes has the surround reflection higher up out of band. I have 4 of them already, so they may be an option if I can come up with a smart way to configure the baffle layout. They run a larger 2" copper winding coil on fiberglass former, so the power handling is more than adequate for a pair in parallel.
I wish ATC still sold 3" domes to the public. They are by far the best sounding mid dome which are durable enough to cope with the power. I'd have to HP them around 600+ hz to keep them from becoming too non-linear at max SPLs, but it would allow for a larger midbass running a lower LP, potentially eliminating the need for a separate midbass with 2 smaller LF drivers.
How about the Volt VM752 instead? As far as I know, this is available for purchase by do-it-yourselfers.
Many greetings,
Michael
If there would just be an alternative with a dome that would stay in piston movement during the range, has higher efficiency, smoother frequency response and a small and easy to mount front baffle ... 😎
What is this the M74B?
Can you expand on measurement conditions?
Do you have polar response and distortion measurements?
Can you expand on measurement conditions?
Do you have polar response and distortion measurements?
The Volt 753 is not quite as good as the ATC. It does at least have a spider like the ATC. The Bliesma M74s don't have a double suspension to the best of my knowledge.
SS 15M/4224G is only a 5.5" but is a pure mid foam surround wirh 4 ohms, flat impedance and magnitude from 400 hz to 1200 hz and 92.5 sensivity. Cheap for a SS.
Of course thd is not as good than a Satori or a Revelator but efficienty is there and a second order low pass around 400 hz with a first order high pass with a flat spl 12" or 15" would perhaps helps rhe baffke step?
Anywat certainly neutral sound due to the carbon wooven cone.
Of course thd is not as good than a Satori or a Revelator but efficienty is there and a second order low pass around 400 hz with a first order high pass with a flat spl 12" or 15" would perhaps helps rhe baffke step?
Anywat certainly neutral sound due to the carbon wooven cone.
I suggested the VM752, which has a much more powerful motor than the VM753. And yes, that's right: it also has a second surround according to the description text. In what way do you think it is worse than ATC's dome?
For the Bliesma-mid-domes, I couldn't find any information on whether it has one or two surrounds. But there are or were already a few 3-inch mid-domes that seem to get by with one surround. Or is that what has often caused problems? I really don't know.
Many greetings,
Michael
@tktran303 There is a M74 thread here with lots of measurements and more. This measurement is from 2 M74A.
Bliesmas only have one surround but I never had problems with that. It's an underhung coil, very leightweight membrane and strong magnet - it seems to be linear. They do 2 surrounds for their huge dome - so I bet they could have done when it would be neccesary for this design.
Bliesmas only have one surround but I never had problems with that. It's an underhung coil, very leightweight membrane and strong magnet - it seems to be linear. They do 2 surrounds for their huge dome - so I bet they could have done when it would be neccesary for this design.
I've not heard it but seen a couple of positve comments online for the Precision Devices PD.103NR1
https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-103nr1/
https://www.thomann.de/gb/precision_devices_pd.103nr1.htm#bewertung
https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-103nr1/
https://www.thomann.de/gb/precision_devices_pd.103nr1.htm#bewertung
It only has +-2,5mm voice coil overhang. And the impedance doesn't look real (There is for sure some impact of the 14kHz membrane resonance).
But the rest is promising!
But the rest is promising!
Hi Profiguy,
Yup, this is the one I was refering to. It seems easier to use than its pure midrange brother.
Yup, this is the one I was refering to. It seems easier to use than its pure midrange brother.
I used the PD5322 with the 2169H. A very good system although the 60degree version didn't work so well in my regular room. Would be great in a large room or public space.
Two very competitive devices by today's standards. Some people use the 2118 without a crossover, I preferred it with a simple 2nd order.
I use the 2206 now. This is a long ignored device by JBL fans but it's my favorite to date. Flat smooth with low distortion, easy to use to 1200hz to a 1.5" CD and PT guide.
Just to update this thread, I've decided to use 2 x B&C 8NDL51 for low mids and 2 x M74A mids with T34B HF. The 3 closest drivers will run their full dedicated range with the outlying midbass and mid dome being cut short to avoid vertical lobing problems. This arrangement looks good on VCad and show some flexibility in crossover points, so I can get the best bandwidth from the mid domes. I chose the 8NDL51s because they just sound great and 2 of them shaded will provide enough output level for mid 110s dB at a few meters. Im also using 2 x SB34NRXL75 for LF approx 25 - 180 hz (or higher) with separate amps. For crossover points on the mids and tweeters I chose roughly 700 hz and 3.5 k, mainly for power handling and reliability, but we'll see what I can get away with. I also might use 2 extra mid domes (SS D7608) in conjunction with the M74As in a radial array, shaded from 700 hz (or lower), tapering to 1500 hz @ 6 dB / oct. These numbers are approximate until the enclosures can be built and measured. If I have enough acoustic power from the M74As, the D7608s will be redundant. I know the M74As will go lower than 700 hz, but I want a reliable setup which won't break much of a sweat running hard for a few hrs at a time.