I run Pass Labs Aleph 2 clones on my Ultras and feel it's a great match. They really do
outperform their modest concept of fast, fun, inexpensive!
outperform their modest concept of fast, fun, inexpensive!
Question on crossover. It's my understanding that 2nd order XO's often require reverse polarity on the tweeter TC9FD. This XO seems to be first order and therefore would not need reverse polarity. Also the woofer uses a large value inductor and is obviously crossing low so why the small value cap on the tweeter? Pardon my ignorance but thanks for the clarification.
TubaV... There are electrictrical aspects of a crossover and there are net acoustic aspects. And there are phase differentials based on driver mechanical separation distanances both vertical and horizontal. Text book therories and real world issues seldom meet. In thruth, the Manzanita, like many crossover topologies are really spread frequency compromises, be they second, third or fourth order net (acoustic) realities. If you feel the crossover used is not correct.. spend a few hours of trial and error and see if you can improve it.
In fact the polarity of the tweeter isn't super critical in this crossover the way it can be in others. It does sound better in reverse polarity, but isn't bad in same polarity. It's worth a listen to both.
Not trying to be critical at all. You guys know WAAAY more than I do. Just wondering. Thanks.
Tuba V.... No harm.. no foul. Your question is a good one. I should have worded my reply a bit better... Just trying to encourage Manzanita builders to experiment. It can certainly be improved upon. Concerning Pano's comment. There are a couple reasons why the speaker is not as sensitive to polarity on the mid-tweet Vifa relative to most 2 way speaker designs. The low effective accustic crossover of around 500 Hz along with both drivers radiating in front and back kind of smooths things out both in the phase domain and the frequency domain. So like grenades, close is good enough. With the Vifa wired in reverse phase, the over all accoustic crossover is close to an ideal 2nd order Butterworth alignment. The Vifa can reach down 2 full octaves without any roll off other than that provided by the crossover. The woofer is in the same situation, it can go up two octaves without any natural roll off. So the drivers are flat within the 4 octave crossover region. Not many speakers (drivers) can do that. The Manzanita is a forgiving KISS design.
I just pulled the trigger on everything for the GRS version. My current go-to speaker is OB for the mids, but not the woofer. This will be a new adventure for me. Plus, I found the link to Erse Audio for crossover parts. Wow, what a price difference compared to PE and Madisound. Less than $200 for everything. Not bad!
More to come...
Thanks, Pano! You smart guys that offer your plans and advice make this hobby a lot of fun!
Mike
More to come...
Thanks, Pano! You smart guys that offer your plans and advice make this hobby a lot of fun!
Mike
Excellent news! Glad you decided to jump in and glad you saved some money on the big inductors, they have gotten very pricey. 
I have the drivers, crossover parts, and building materials. Starting this build today. So, out of curiosity and not trying to bastardize anything, have other drivers been used instead of the TC 9? I have countless 3" and 4" FR drivers. I can experiment on my own, but just curious if anyone else has tried anything different.
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
The first design used a great tweeter that was, unfortunately, discontinued. I've never heard that original design. This thread started when another tweeter was substituted for the original tweeter. The 2nd tweeter wouldn't play as low as the first unit, unfortunately, but did well when used within it's range and was inexpensive.
The original tweeter came back into production a bit later but the price soared so it was no longer useful in an inexpensive build.
The current driver was found as it could go low enough to blend nicely with the woofer and was inexpensive. It sounds very good, too, especially for it's price.
John can give you technical info on the current driver. Evidently it's quite well engineered and a bit of a marvel.
The original tweeter came back into production a bit later but the price soared so it was no longer useful in an inexpensive build.
The current driver was found as it could go low enough to blend nicely with the woofer and was inexpensive. It sounds very good, too, especially for it's price.
John can give you technical info on the current driver. Evidently it's quite well engineered and a bit of a marvel.
not off the top of my head, you'll have to search the thread.
it seems quite a forgiving design and there's lots of support here too
it seems quite a forgiving design and there's lots of support here too
Vifa TC9 substitutes??
You can get several mid-tweeters to work, question is, how well. The original used a scan speak D3806 1.5" mid-tweet. Originally around $50 or so. Then it more than doubled in price. As a temp fill in we used a Seas 27TDFC with crossover mods. Not optimal, but worked OK. Then the Vifa TC9 with a yet again reworked crossover. Best of the bunch. The commercial version of the Manzanita uses the Neo magnet Peerless NE123W 4" full range which is the best solution. But, again, requires crossover modification to work well, and is fairly expensive
If you tell me which mid-tweeter you will be trying to use I can take a look and MAY be able to help you work things out providing there are complete specs and frequency plots available. J
You can get several mid-tweeters to work, question is, how well. The original used a scan speak D3806 1.5" mid-tweet. Originally around $50 or so. Then it more than doubled in price. As a temp fill in we used a Seas 27TDFC with crossover mods. Not optimal, but worked OK. Then the Vifa TC9 with a yet again reworked crossover. Best of the bunch. The commercial version of the Manzanita uses the Neo magnet Peerless NE123W 4" full range which is the best solution. But, again, requires crossover modification to work well, and is fairly expensive
If you tell me which mid-tweeter you will be trying to use I can take a look and MAY be able to help you work things out providing there are complete specs and frequency plots available. J
Thanks John,
That's very gracious of you. It was more out of curiosity, but if you have the time and inclination, here are some that I have. I'll be using a TC-9, at least for now. I can use this as a learning experience to gain some crossover knowledge and play with the design. Are there any parameters that a guy can look for right away that disqualify an FR driver (low or high QTS, Vas, etc.)? Retirement is two years away for me and speaker design would be a great hobby for a retiree 🙂.
Some or all may be obviously incompatible, but the ones that come to mind I have in my inventory are:
PS 95
Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2" Point Source Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
Tang Band W4-1337SD
Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver
Mark Audio CHN-70
Markaudio CHN-70 Paper
Mark Audio CHP-70
Markaudio CHP-70 Gen2 Natural Paper
Thanks,
Mike
That's very gracious of you. It was more out of curiosity, but if you have the time and inclination, here are some that I have. I'll be using a TC-9, at least for now. I can use this as a learning experience to gain some crossover knowledge and play with the design. Are there any parameters that a guy can look for right away that disqualify an FR driver (low or high QTS, Vas, etc.)? Retirement is two years away for me and speaker design would be a great hobby for a retiree 🙂.
Some or all may be obviously incompatible, but the ones that come to mind I have in my inventory are:
PS 95
Dayton Audio PS95-8 3-1/2" Point Source Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
Tang Band W4-1337SD
Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver
Mark Audio CHN-70
Markaudio CHN-70 Paper
Mark Audio CHP-70
Markaudio CHP-70 Gen2 Natural Paper
Thanks,
Mike
Potential TC9 alternatives
Mike.. Of the three the PE appears to be the best choice and require the least crossover work. Nearly 3 times the price of the TC9, but at $30 each still more than reasonable. Can drop right in with the main effort of adjusting the pad value. Then see what you have sonically. The trap and high pass cap may also need to be tweaked. Hope that helps. J
Mike.. Of the three the PE appears to be the best choice and require the least crossover work. Nearly 3 times the price of the TC9, but at $30 each still more than reasonable. Can drop right in with the main effort of adjusting the pad value. Then see what you have sonically. The trap and high pass cap may also need to be tweaked. Hope that helps. J
Well, Erse is out of the 20mH inductors. It will be months before they get any. Parts Express appears to have them in stock. Before I order from PE, are there any other reliable sources for iron core inductors that might be a little less expensive than PE?
Thanks!
Thanks!