Neil Patel, Avalon's designer & illuminating spirit, understands why Harry Olson recommended using a truncated pyramid TM speaker cabinet back in 1950. I did a 5-minute sim of a 6.5" mid + 1" dome in a Avalon ISIS type truncated pyramid which shows that a 2.5Khz crossover can have modest tweeter cabinet diffraction wiggles and waggles. Mounting the tweeter right at the top edge bevel cuts yielded the smoothest SPL sims.
If sharp edges hurt your eyes, a wider baffle with large radius quarter rounds on all edges will support high SPL efficiency at a lower crossover frequency. The sound stage would change because a large baffle pushes more energy into the front 180 degree(2-PI) and less toward the sides(4-PI) for reflected ambience.
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voluptuous [vuh-luhp-choo-uh s]
sensuously pleasing or delightful:
--sexually attractive because of a full, shapely figure: voluptuous beauty.
If sharp edges hurt your eyes, a wider baffle with large radius quarter rounds on all edges will support high SPL efficiency at a lower crossover frequency. The sound stage would change because a large baffle pushes more energy into the front 180 degree(2-PI) and less toward the sides(4-PI) for reflected ambience.
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voluptuous [vuh-luhp-choo-uh s]
sensuously pleasing or delightful:
--sexually attractive because of a full, shapely figure: voluptuous beauty.
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Thanks buddy. Thats what I needed to know. I'm just trying to see if a dome tweeter is an intelligent choice and will it sound just as good as a ribbon, if not then I will go a different direction. I wish there was a ribbon that would hold up to the R&B, Blues, & Rock "hi energy music" that I listen to if there was I would jump on it in a heartbeat. Everyone says that the raals need to be crossed over around 6000hz and I know my AE TD6m will not go that high without the apollo upgrade which my speakers don't have. So i'm just trying to find something that is the next bext option. I am about ready to just flop down the cash for a pair of Raal 70-20xr 2500-3000hz x-over point at $1400.00 ouchhhh. I just hate to spend that much and I have never heard a pair of them. That kind of money in the blind is a tough pill to swallow.
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The RAAL 140-15D can be crossed at 3K as well...and some go even lower, but I wouldn't if you're looking to play LOUD. As for the 70-20X, that's also an excellent choice and they don't need the silly pads for good dispersion.
As for domes that sound like ribbons, they really don't exist due to different directivity patterns. Although, the SS Be tweeters I've heard come close and are even preferred in some cases.
Thanks, if you would please try to describe the differences in sound between the Scanspeak 2908 and the raals. Thanks again.
Attached:
1) TD6M + TW29RN curves equalized for Avalon ISIS baffle
---1db scale dramatizes TD6M cone breakup which miniDSP cannot correct
2) LR4 @2,500Hz on equalized curves 1db and 5db scales
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Avalon's genius designer Neil Patel selected a dome tweeter for all Avalon speakers for polar response + dynamics + sound. Neil likes domes.
If you decide to purchase RAAL 70-40 ribbons, you will want to study alternate cabinet shapes which best match the ribbon's horizontal polar response in your listening room. Probably a larger baffle(10"-12" wide) with large radius quarter rounds for low diffraction.
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1) TD6M + TW29RN curves equalized for Avalon ISIS baffle
---1db scale dramatizes TD6M cone breakup which miniDSP cannot correct
2) LR4 @2,500Hz on equalized curves 1db and 5db scales
==========
Avalon's genius designer Neil Patel selected a dome tweeter for all Avalon speakers for polar response + dynamics + sound. Neil likes domes.
If you decide to purchase RAAL 70-40 ribbons, you will want to study alternate cabinet shapes which best match the ribbon's horizontal polar response in your listening room. Probably a larger baffle(10"-12" wide) with large radius quarter rounds for low diffraction.
==========
Attachments
If you want a ribbon that can play loud and can be crossed at 2kHz, why aren't you considering Beyma TPL? Not exactly a ribbon, but an air motion transformer, but I'm guessing that is not a huge issue. People cross it from 1.5kHz upwards and can certainly handle loud.
Sorry I didn't read the whole thread. A few months ago I did read the first pages and now I see you are back.
Sorry I didn't read the whole thread. A few months ago I did read the first pages and now I see you are back.
So do you'll agree that the TPL-150S the silver version would be one of my best options (sort of a spin off of a Avalon / Salk Soundscape 12; but with two 12" woofers sealed) considering price/performance since most of the music I listen to wasn't always recorded in the best form. I want to get the best sound dynamic, electric, & live without the harshness of most compression drivers like altec, klipsch, faital pro & tad but with better extension than the compression driver/horns. I have heard some of music I like on studio monitors such as yamaha M-1000's and pmc's IB2S and on great recordings it's sounded great; but on most of the recordings which the wasn't recorded in the best of form they sounder harsh and in your face. I don't like that so this is the type of advice i'm looking for. If you could build the perfect 3 way catered towards music like Journey, Fleetwood Mac, Queen, Rick James, Prince, O-Jays, southern blues etc... What would you do?
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I don't know. A number of factors play into a system sounding harsh. Improving resolution of my speakers (upgrading only the speakers) was one instance where I met harshness. But it wasn't generated by the speaker. It was rather a more revealing speaker displaying the limitations of the rest of the chain. I upgraded amp and things improved very considerably. Then the pre and again, then DAC and again, then moved to super optimized audio PC and again, then adopted Audiophile Optimizer (software) and again. Even though I was using the same speakers the difference between initial and final sound was big (as was the difference in cummulative price of the system).
If you are sure the culprit is the tweeter, then I would play safe and go with what you know you like.
I myself would rather go more revealing and optimize the sound to where I like it by a combination of removing jitter/noise from the chain, plus tube rolling in my tweeter amps to my liking, plus DSP (I'd rather minimize the use of this one).
Thanks, yes all the other gears has been upgraded to the point of deminishing return. The tweeter is the week link right now. I just want a speaker that everything 90% right. But the is do like the beyma tpl-150 vs raal vs SS 2908 vs TL ceramic dome. Is it the best for the price point to you?
I don't know enough to answer that. I do know, however, other factors also come into play.
For example dispersion needs/goals. Raal and Beyma are very different from domes and I would take that into consideration.
How big of a deal is lobbing for you? The large ribbons/AMT impose a large center-to-center distance that will generate lobbing.
Dynamics? Large ribbons/AMT have more of that. Within Raal vs Beyma, the Raal is said to be more resolving while the Beyma is more dynamic, the former lower efficiency, the latter higher. TPL-150H (mine) is 104 dB/W, so a big time factor with SET amps.
Nobody should tell you which driver to use. All what can people do is point to aspects of drivers you should be aware of and you should make the call. And if someone tells you which one is "best"...I wouldn't bite...they don't have your ears, your system, nor your tastes...
Correct,the best way would be to here both and then make a decision. I may have to drive to Dallas, TX. and have a listen, for I'm having a tough time finding someone in Oklahoma with the said tweeters. I think from my experience the beyma would be the best option in my case do to my listening taste and my associated epuipment which normally takes the edge off. My Nelson Pass upgraded GFA-XXX adcom amps really get the job done. I'm just having a hard time spending on the raal if it is going to be super revealing for my recordings. Thoughts please.
Does anyone live in the Oklahoma City area, who doesn't mind if I come over for a listen to the raal, tpl, or something that you may think is better for my project.
The Beyma TPL-150 will not deliver the same level of "detail" as the 93db/w RAAL 70-20XR ribbon. The Beyma AMT film is HUGE, folds to spit out sound, and has a front magnet grid.... The TPL-150 will not deliver the same level of "detail" as the RAAL 70-20XR ribbon.
The 6.5" TD6M is a 93.5db/w midrange...you cannot use a 3-watt tube amp, so a 99db/w TPL-150 is not needed.
For your 14' x 20' listening room, a quality dome vs. RAAL 70-20XR ribbon comparison can be talked to death as a mate for the TD6M, but the TPL-150 is designed for a different world.
As discussed, with a separate TM top speaker design like a short Avalon ISIS, you can easily build both dome & ribbon tops and invite folks over to compare.
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The 6.5" TD6M is a 93.5db/w dynamic midrange.
The 1" diameter TW29RN 93db/w is a versatile dome tweeter.
The 2.75" x 0.76" RAAL 70-20XR ribbon is a 93db/w high detail tweeter.
The 6"x1" TPL-150 is a 99db/w AMT tweeter with 120-degree horizontal and 20-degree vertical polar pattern...a different world.
The 6.5" TD6M is a 93.5db/w midrange...you cannot use a 3-watt tube amp, so a 99db/w TPL-150 is not needed.
For your 14' x 20' listening room, a quality dome vs. RAAL 70-20XR ribbon comparison can be talked to death as a mate for the TD6M, but the TPL-150 is designed for a different world.
As discussed, with a separate TM top speaker design like a short Avalon ISIS, you can easily build both dome & ribbon tops and invite folks over to compare.
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The 6.5" TD6M is a 93.5db/w dynamic midrange.
The 1" diameter TW29RN 93db/w is a versatile dome tweeter.
The 2.75" x 0.76" RAAL 70-20XR ribbon is a 93db/w high detail tweeter.
The 6"x1" TPL-150 is a 99db/w AMT tweeter with 120-degree horizontal and 20-degree vertical polar pattern...a different world.
If I can't find a deal on the Raal 70-20xr. I will more than likely buy the TL N28BER-G BRAND NEW and move with the project. Everyone agree with the Transducer Lab Beryllium.
ebay.......
Transducer Lab N28BER-A Pure Beryllium dome tweeters matches with Focal woofer
US $395.00 / pair
Transducer Lab N28BER A Pure Beryllium Dome Tweeters Matches with Focal Woofer | eBay
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IF you want a low cost first build, the excellent SB Acoustics SB29RDC-C04 is $52
...leaves you a few bucks for BIG Stuff
Transducer Lab N28BER-A Pure Beryllium dome tweeters matches with Focal woofer
US $395.00 / pair
Transducer Lab N28BER A Pure Beryllium Dome Tweeters Matches with Focal Woofer | eBay
=============
IF you want a low cost first build, the excellent SB Acoustics SB29RDC-C04 is $52
...leaves you a few bucks for BIG Stuff
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I'm fine with the Satori as long as it's a dynamic tweeter. I'm looking for something that is a good dispersion match for my TD woofers and mid and at the same time a very emotional, dynamic, and enjoyable tweeter. I thought the soft dome were lacking in dynamics. Correct me if I am incorrect. Thanks
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