Mr. Keller, Mr. Keller, Mr. Keller.
You're a lunatic.
You definitely belong here.
There is no comparing the Visaton to the ATC SM75/150. The ATC is the only midrange I would use if I couldn't get the Accuton C51. The ATC may be one of the best midrange drivers on the planet. Buy it. I know they're over $700 CDN here in Canada. What are they in your neck of the woods?.
I am in the process of designing a less expensive version of my big boys. I will be using the triangle baffle approach. As soon as I have drawings, I'll show them to you.
If you need a preliminary explanation on the FBDCPS 4-way crossover, Euphoria Speaker Design - My Obsession
I realized I made a mistake before, MH Audio is at mh-audio.nl
You're a lunatic.
You definitely belong here.
There is no comparing the Visaton to the ATC SM75/150. The ATC is the only midrange I would use if I couldn't get the Accuton C51. The ATC may be one of the best midrange drivers on the planet. Buy it. I know they're over $700 CDN here in Canada. What are they in your neck of the woods?.
I am in the process of designing a less expensive version of my big boys. I will be using the triangle baffle approach. As soon as I have drawings, I'll show them to you.
If you need a preliminary explanation on the FBDCPS 4-way crossover, Euphoria Speaker Design - My Obsession
I realized I made a mistake before, MH Audio is at mh-audio.nl
The Audax tweeter.
Scenario 1) if our midrange covers 1000Hz to 5000 Hz (2.25 octaves), any tweeter will work. The midrange is doing the majority of the work. This assumes a very thin baffle for the mid-woofer.
Scenario 2) our mid-woofer baffle width gives us a low baffle step. Let's assume an 800Hz step. This means our midrange needs to cross around 800Hz. This now gives us 800Hz - 4000Hz (2.25 octaves). Now the tweeter comes a little lower. We hear more of it. We need it to be better.
Too many variables at this point to comment on the tweeter.
DIY is all about trying stuff, learning from your mistakes, and moving forward.
Have you built your test box yet?
Have you seen how the drivers interact?
Have you listened to the drivers yet?
Have you started measuring the drivers, in box?
Some drivers look great on paper, but the sound they present is not what you want.
Would you like to know how many drivers and/or crossover parts I have?. I have a fraction of what some have, but more than others.
Would you like to know how many measurements I've taken over the last 8 years? A fraction of what some have, but more than others.
There are thousands of speaker designs out there. They all have one thing in common. Someone put in a lot of time and effort.
Effort = Reward
Mr. Keller. One can't win the race without running the race.
Scenario 1) if our midrange covers 1000Hz to 5000 Hz (2.25 octaves), any tweeter will work. The midrange is doing the majority of the work. This assumes a very thin baffle for the mid-woofer.
Scenario 2) our mid-woofer baffle width gives us a low baffle step. Let's assume an 800Hz step. This means our midrange needs to cross around 800Hz. This now gives us 800Hz - 4000Hz (2.25 octaves). Now the tweeter comes a little lower. We hear more of it. We need it to be better.
Too many variables at this point to comment on the tweeter.
DIY is all about trying stuff, learning from your mistakes, and moving forward.
Have you built your test box yet?
Have you seen how the drivers interact?
Have you listened to the drivers yet?
Have you started measuring the drivers, in box?
Some drivers look great on paper, but the sound they present is not what you want.
Would you like to know how many drivers and/or crossover parts I have?. I have a fraction of what some have, but more than others.
Would you like to know how many measurements I've taken over the last 8 years? A fraction of what some have, but more than others.
There are thousands of speaker designs out there. They all have one thing in common. Someone put in a lot of time and effort.
Effort = Reward
Mr. Keller. One can't win the race without running the race.
Listening results
I have the tweeter and mid working together now. The mid is low crossed at 300hz and high crossed at 2500hz to the audax tweeter and it sounds great. I've tried a lot of crossover points and this sounded the most natural and imaged the best. This design kept me from having a crossover point in the critical midrange frequencies 300-2500hz. My understanding is that you don't want any crossover in this range. Isn't this the whole idea? Now my main concern is the bass and phase. My understanding is that it's a lot tougher to get the phase right in a 4 way rather than a 3 way is this correct? I thought that maybe it would make since to low cross the pair of TD12s woofers per side at say 40-70hz for the slam factor and let the pair of dayton audio rss315hfa-8's per side handle the 40-70hz and down frequencies due to their heavier cone mass. This way I would have a three way with pair of dual subs that I can place wherever they sound the best in the room. The reason i'm running dual TD12s per side on the three ways is to have the woofer at least 5-6 db louder than the midrange per John's advice a AE. If if am near field listening and the TD12s are overloading the room I can always just unhook one of the woofers and just use a pair but; if I go to a larger room or like the sound of both woofers per side in fine. Like I said to me the dayton Rss does a better job from say 20hz to 60-70hz than the TD12s. To me the TD12s has more speed, output, cleaner sound, more slam that's way my goal was to have them do all the bass & mid bass work and let the TD6m midrange do it's job with the mids up to 2500hz where the audax is really musical and flat all the way out. Then when I do build a crossover it should be easier getting the phase correct in a three way design as opposed to a 4 way. The subs crossover, EQ, phase, REW etc... would be handled by the minidsp 4X10HD with the plug-in and mic. Is this the way in general it's supposed to work? Thanks again. Basically it would be an Avalon Isis with better drivers and a pair of dual subs to handle the really low frequencies so that the TD12s will stay clean without the strain of trying to play to low just super clean bass slam. Opinions please!
I have the tweeter and mid working together now. The mid is low crossed at 300hz and high crossed at 2500hz to the audax tweeter and it sounds great. I've tried a lot of crossover points and this sounded the most natural and imaged the best. This design kept me from having a crossover point in the critical midrange frequencies 300-2500hz. My understanding is that you don't want any crossover in this range. Isn't this the whole idea? Now my main concern is the bass and phase. My understanding is that it's a lot tougher to get the phase right in a 4 way rather than a 3 way is this correct? I thought that maybe it would make since to low cross the pair of TD12s woofers per side at say 40-70hz for the slam factor and let the pair of dayton audio rss315hfa-8's per side handle the 40-70hz and down frequencies due to their heavier cone mass. This way I would have a three way with pair of dual subs that I can place wherever they sound the best in the room. The reason i'm running dual TD12s per side on the three ways is to have the woofer at least 5-6 db louder than the midrange per John's advice a AE. If if am near field listening and the TD12s are overloading the room I can always just unhook one of the woofers and just use a pair but; if I go to a larger room or like the sound of both woofers per side in fine. Like I said to me the dayton Rss does a better job from say 20hz to 60-70hz than the TD12s. To me the TD12s has more speed, output, cleaner sound, more slam that's way my goal was to have them do all the bass & mid bass work and let the TD6m midrange do it's job with the mids up to 2500hz where the audax is really musical and flat all the way out. Then when I do build a crossover it should be easier getting the phase correct in a three way design as opposed to a 4 way. The subs crossover, EQ, phase, REW etc... would be handled by the minidsp 4X10HD with the plug-in and mic. Is this the way in general it's supposed to work? Thanks again. Basically it would be an Avalon Isis with better drivers and a pair of dual subs to handle the really low frequencies so that the TD12s will stay clean without the strain of trying to play to low just super clean bass slam. Opinions please!
Fine tunning
Hello, has anyone come up with some suggestions that may improve the project. I would like to get a good deal on a pair of ATC sm75/150 8ohm version, or something that is a little better than the AE TD6m in which by my account there's not a lot if any better. I've tried the Faital Pro W6N8-120 good but not as dynamic, the PHL 1120 about the same as the Faital but more expensive, etc...I just need to be sure before I start cutting. Feel free to voice your suggestions and experiences. Keep in mind the woofers are AE and the mids are AE. I went this route for synergy reasons. If we all put our heads together we might come up with something that makes a lot of since or decide that what I have is the best for my goal. Also I am looking for someone to do my crossover when I ready. Thanks again.
Hello, has anyone come up with some suggestions that may improve the project. I would like to get a good deal on a pair of ATC sm75/150 8ohm version, or something that is a little better than the AE TD6m in which by my account there's not a lot if any better. I've tried the Faital Pro W6N8-120 good but not as dynamic, the PHL 1120 about the same as the Faital but more expensive, etc...I just need to be sure before I start cutting. Feel free to voice your suggestions and experiences. Keep in mind the woofers are AE and the mids are AE. I went this route for synergy reasons. If we all put our heads together we might come up with something that makes a lot of since or decide that what I have is the best for my goal. Also I am looking for someone to do my crossover when I ready. Thanks again.
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Back seat driver comments.....
If you are using a minidsp 4x10HD digital crossover, it should be simple to experiment with the TD6M LR4 at 400Hz and 1900Hz. The polar plot for the TD6M that I have downloaded favors this frequency range.... after a few hours of break-in. My plot also shows a SPL dip around 750Hz from reflections.
If you are using a minidsp 4x10HD digital crossover, it should be simple to experiment with the TD6M LR4 at 400Hz and 1900Hz. The polar plot for the TD6M that I have downloaded favors this frequency range.... after a few hours of break-in. My plot also shows a SPL dip around 750Hz from reflections.
Dip in the 700 hz range
Per John the dip can be fixed by using roxul for the back wave. Now my question is do you deal with the x-over upper end for td6m with the minidsp or do you use a 4" cone mid or a 2-3" dome mid to compensate for the upper mid frequencies. At this point we would back to a 4 way or go with a different mid all together. Give best options. I really like 3 way for ease of phase issues. But let's here your thoughts. Thanks
Per John the dip can be fixed by using roxul for the back wave. Now my question is do you deal with the x-over upper end for td6m with the minidsp or do you use a 4" cone mid or a 2-3" dome mid to compensate for the upper mid frequencies. At this point we would back to a 4 way or go with a different mid all together. Give best options. I really like 3 way for ease of phase issues. But let's here your thoughts. Thanks
I am also looking at the Audax HM100Z0 4" Aerogel Midrange to match my Audax TW025A20 tweeter. This may be the best match for a mid to tweeter combo since I have a pair of Will Vincent dyna MKIII tube amps just sitting here begging to be used. I could cross from the TD12s to the TD6m at 250hz then cross to the Audax HM100Z0 at about 700-800hz then on to the TW025A20 at 2500-3000hz. What do you think? Should I stay with a 3 way or go to a 4 way using the format listed above? Please chime in.
ATC sm75/150
Since the TD12s will play up into the 800hz range should I just sell the TD6ms and buy the ATC 75/150 for a 3 way and be done with it or go for a 4 way with something less cost wise since in a 4 way there is less need for super high end drivers do the drivers having less frequencies to cover?
The technical information you need for a TD6M/TD12S design is in this thread.
Select a box design! Several threads on best box construction methods.
MAINs: TW025A20 butted above TD6M a few inches above TD12M in a clever, low diffraction, sealed box.
WOOFERS(20-60Hz) Dayton RSS315HFA, positioned to control room effects.
-TW025A20 should be directly butted to the TD6M since DSP cannot fix lobing
-For the best sonics, you want both the TD6M and TD12S in SEALED boxes with the same Qtc
---Post #4 has TD12S TD6M Qtc sim data for different SEALED box volumes
-----Perform critical listening with different box volumes to understand Qtc effects, and decide upon favorite transient response.
---The C-to-C between the TD6M and TD12S should not be much greater than 14" (quarter wavelength of 250Hz)... but floor bounce also needs attention.
Select a box design!
Measure and tune.
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