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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

synergy.....Take #7
synergy.....Take #7
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Old 25th April 2020, 09:41 PM   #41
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyuser2010 View Post
Mark, great work, 47 pounds... now imagine if you made the entire horn out of foam with glass skins!
Thx!

And no kidding about glassing....
It's blowing my mind, the opportunities
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Old 25th April 2020, 09:59 PM   #42
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
Nice! I've never heard a Synergy horn that big.
Thx Bill,

Size matters, i have to admit Lol
Low mids, upper bass, whatever the term ... really do benefit from lower pattern control.


I'm hoping to take bigger horn experiments ever lower.
This syn has the primary wood flares square cut to allow different XPS foam to 'bolt on' easily.
I could very easily make the primary flare really huge, and then add a second foamboard flare using your great speadsheet for angles.
See pict for how the foamboard flare mount to primary wood flare...

The funny thing to me has been how different the 60x40 and 90x60, with the same size mouth have sounded. Much to sort out still...

flare cut.jpg
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Old 26th April 2020, 01:29 AM   #43
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyuser2010 View Post
now imagine if you made the entire horn out of foam with glass skins!
There is [was?] a major prosound manufacturer making horns and bass bins this way, though IIRC the 'skin' isn't traditional fiberglass layups if I understood the rather cryptic response I got some years ago.

GM
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Last edited by GM; 26th April 2020 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 26th April 2020, 02:51 AM   #44
diyuser2010 is offline diyuser2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
There is [was?] a major prosound manufacturer making horns and bass bins this way, though IIRC the 'skin' isn't traditional fiberglass layups if I understood the rather cryptic response I got some years ago.

GM

Klipsch built the KP-600 systems out of hand laid fiberglass, the enclosures had aluminum reinforcements, and balsa in a few spots on the long panels.



Klipsch KP-600 Eye Candy - Klipsch Pro Audio - The Klipsch Audio Community
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Old 26th April 2020, 01:44 PM   #45
nc535 is offline nc535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Yep, you know, i think we put too much emphasis into polars, because of all of the Harman literature.
Not that i think it's wrong, on the contrary i think it's right.
Right as in a best fit for whatever the room.
It's just....we still have these damn rooms to contend with...and each room has it's own particular best solution.
Sometimes bad directivity might fix/fit the room ????

Which btw, your work and sims on your line array thread continue to blow me away..
I've started to post so many times in the thread.
I've decided you are going to figure out the perfect indoor speaker...
so i just watch and learn, wondering if you will finally compel me in to the world of sims, and maybe another line array ...
I don't think bad directivity would often be the solution. I think its the case that if you have a high ratio of direct to reflected energy and are sitting in the main beam, then imperfections in the polar response don't matter as much.

As to line arrays, I'm learning as much or more than anyone else by doing those simulations. This morning I presented what I think is a compelling case for shading even a floor to ceiling line array, which until now hasn't been considered necessarys. Shading makes a good line array better. If you do frequency dependent shading, you don't need to lose any SPL at the low end.

I think perhaps a perfect line array could be a perfect indoor speaker IFF you had the perfect room for it. The same could be said of a synergy but it would want a different room. Both work well in corners but I can't help thinking large horns need a dedicated room. Well done line arrays at least have a chance of being tolerated in a living or family room... but there will need to be some treatment unless its a really large room.
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Last edited by nc535; 26th April 2020 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:28 PM   #46
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
Update:

Finished detachable flares, and ........a second syn7!
It's the first stereo I've listened to in almost a year, since going down the synergy development hole.

Final weight with flares on, is 52lbs. So foam flares and hardware added only 5 lbs, yay!

Like said, the goal was to be 90x60 conical for the first 2/3's, and as tractrix-like as possible for the last 1/3.
Here's a pict with just the horiz flares attached.
syn7 horiz frame only.jpg



I can move them around from indoors to outdoors, even with the flares attached.
Portability, has been a huge part of the design goal; the flares go on and off pretty easily and quickly. But it's been a pleasant surprise to find I can move them around attached.
That said, their sheer size does make moving them a little awkward, but with each move from place to place, I've been gaining the muscle and logistic memory how to make it easier. So goal met !
Here's a pict from the bottom.

syn7 bottom.jpg



Sound wise....hey, hey, hey...happy camper here
Great imaging, outstanding transients and SPL.
(Lowest SPL box I've built yet lol...single box should be good for >128dB.)

Both running in room.
syn7 pair.jpg

Surprisingly, the added flares and lower pattern control, appear to have made this the first speaker that almost sounds tonally neutral without any downward tilt in frequency response.

I'd post measurements, but all I have so far is on-axis, tuned to on-axis......which basically always look close to ideal given I use 4-way discrete FIR tuning and just bang out spot on tuning.
So, I'll wait to post polars which no doubt will then show plenty of anomalies.

But since both indoors and outdoors are sounding simply super, ....and portability as well as SPL goals are satisfied, ....polars probably aren't going to matter much to me.

Thx for looking...
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:41 PM   #47
GM is offline GM  United States
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Old 19th May 2020, 09:23 PM   #48
ErnieM is offline ErnieM  United States
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We need a like button...

What are your current crossover points and slopes? Thanks.
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Old 19th May 2020, 09:41 PM   #49
tmuikku is offline tmuikku  Finland
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The looks is great as well! Very good job!
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Old 19th May 2020, 10:53 PM   #50
Nissep is offline Nissep  Sweden
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If you start messing with fiberglass, take a look at what can be done with stretched fabric over a frame. The entire horn could potentially be made by making a box with shelves that one cut the desired shapes in. Then you stretch the fabric over the top and press down with a 1” rod or 3D-printed horn throat shape of choice. The fabric will take the shape of the cuts in the shelves and the pushrod.

Then cover the fabric in epoxy and let it cure. The hardened horn is not rigid enough but holds the desired shape. To increase the rigidity put fiberglass on the inside. To increase damping of an all fiberglass horn one can experiment with constrained layer damping. Looking from the outside we have the epoxy/fabric then fiberglass then fabric with soft polyurethane rubber brushed on it, and the last layer is fiberglass. Hard skin, soft viscoelastic center.

Last edited by Nissep; 19th May 2020 at 10:56 PM.
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