Hi and happy new year to all.
After some time of following this thread i have pulled the trigger and ordered the parts for the Peerless version of the Manzanitas.
In order to squeeze some more Q out of the drivers i decided to invest in higher grade crossover parts.
L1 - Jantzen 20,00 mH C core coil Cu 1,4 (15AWG) Rdc 0,2? Ohm core R100
C1 - Clarity cap SA 5.5uF bypassed with Panasonic 0.47uF and Vishay 0.01uf
L2- Jantzen 2,000 mH cross foil coil +/-2% 14AWG Rdc 0,40 Ohm
Plus - 15uf clarity cap and 0.40mH 14AWG aircore coil for the bass trap
Plus - several pairs of superes resistors to experiment with the values for R2
All in all the cost of those parts equaled the cost of the drivers.
@ John,
Considering the low price of the used drivers (and knowing that their price/performance ratio is considerably high) from your perspective where the return on investment in higher quality crossover parts will start to diminish?
Kind regards,
Oliver
After some time of following this thread i have pulled the trigger and ordered the parts for the Peerless version of the Manzanitas.
In order to squeeze some more Q out of the drivers i decided to invest in higher grade crossover parts.
L1 - Jantzen 20,00 mH C core coil Cu 1,4 (15AWG) Rdc 0,2? Ohm core R100
C1 - Clarity cap SA 5.5uF bypassed with Panasonic 0.47uF and Vishay 0.01uf
L2- Jantzen 2,000 mH cross foil coil +/-2% 14AWG Rdc 0,40 Ohm
Plus - 15uf clarity cap and 0.40mH 14AWG aircore coil for the bass trap
Plus - several pairs of superes resistors to experiment with the values for R2
All in all the cost of those parts equaled the cost of the drivers.
@ John,
Considering the low price of the used drivers (and knowing that their price/performance ratio is considerably high) from your perspective where the return on investment in higher quality crossover parts will start to diminish?
Kind regards,
Oliver
The Manzanita, when correctly built, will reveal a lot about the crossover components you use. The better the components, the better the outcome. It comes down to what you can justify. I was careful about balancing cost vs. performance in keeping with the best bang for the buck goal on the original and subsequent versions.
Just for S & G's, I have used 14 ga. toroidal inductor(s) on the low pass and 12 ga air core inductors on the high pass & traps, plus Cressendo and other specialty caps. Could hear improvements as I added these high performance parts one at a time. But the wholesale cost got to around $500 per channel!! Part of the fun of the design, you can play to your hearts content! Please let us know what you learn from your trials! Best J
Just for S & G's, I have used 14 ga. toroidal inductor(s) on the low pass and 12 ga air core inductors on the high pass & traps, plus Cressendo and other specialty caps. Could hear improvements as I added these high performance parts one at a time. But the wholesale cost got to around $500 per channel!! Part of the fun of the design, you can play to your hearts content! Please let us know what you learn from your trials! Best J
Performance gains are possible with upgraded drivers. However, when you combine the major added driver cost along with the more complex crossover required to get the most from the updated drivers, you end up with a multi thousand dollar project of considerable complexity. It is difficult to categorize potential improvement in basic terms, say percentage or fraction.
But, a state of the art, cost close to "no object" IMHO is not justified. The basic Manzanita out resolves a lot of amplifiers and CD players as is. Few low cost speakers can to that as well as the Manzanita can. Many builder - owners have told me this over the years. And I believe it is a true statement. I have tried woofers from $10 - $600 and mid - tweeter from $3 - $450. A lot of combinations a lot of different ways.
But again, if one wants to experiment, it is easy to do. No real limits. Best J
But, a state of the art, cost close to "no object" IMHO is not justified. The basic Manzanita out resolves a lot of amplifiers and CD players as is. Few low cost speakers can to that as well as the Manzanita can. Many builder - owners have told me this over the years. And I believe it is a true statement. I have tried woofers from $10 - $600 and mid - tweeter from $3 - $450. A lot of combinations a lot of different ways.
But again, if one wants to experiment, it is easy to do. No real limits. Best J
IMO that would be a mistake. But it's not so much the "quality" of the crossover parts as it is getting the right values and topology. Get the values right and you are darn near there. A crossover can make or break a speaker.
I've never met anyone better at taking normal drivers and getting them to work well together than John. He's almost unnaturally good at it. He chooses the drivers to work well together then makes it all gel with clever, and often simple, crossover design. That's a big part of what makes the Manzanita work - smart driver choices connected to skilled crossover design.
I've never met anyone better at taking normal drivers and getting them to work well together than John. He's almost unnaturally good at it. He chooses the drivers to work well together then makes it all gel with clever, and often simple, crossover design. That's a big part of what makes the Manzanita work - smart driver choices connected to skilled crossover design.
I need to backtrack and seek another design. Something I should have done first, is show my wife. She is not happy with the aesthetics of the large and wide baffles of the Manzanita. Still need something that will work at low SPL. She is ok with floorstanders, width of 10" when viewed from the front would be ok. Are there any designs aside from OB that are more likely to results in a less "boxy" sound?
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Not uncommon for the gals not to like an OB's appearance.
The best advise I can give is to consider a two sealed box design. 8" or 10" woofer with a well worked out crossover. I will look around and see if there are any potentials in the DIY and or Freeware realms. Know there are a few in the commercial world. Best J
The best advise I can give is to consider a two sealed box design. 8" or 10" woofer with a well worked out crossover. I will look around and see if there are any potentials in the DIY and or Freeware realms. Know there are a few in the commercial world. Best J
Sorry for hijacking the thread but there's been a mention of box speakers already ...
If you are going to a standard 8" or 10" woofer and tweeter in a box then I'll suggest something from Pi Speakers.
A 2 Pi or 2 Pi Tower from Pi Speakers is a good sounding choice, and if you build the cabinets, they go for very little money.
They sound different than the Ultra and the Manzanita but are better than their modest price would suggest. Just like the Manzi's and the Ultra's are better than their price suggests.
The big thing here is they look just like regular box speakers and are designed to be placed right up against the wall. It might make them an easier sell visually than even a standard box speaker. It gets them out of the way.
The guy who runs Pi Speakers, Wayne Parham, is also a regular at The Lone Star Audio Fest. Both he and John have been doing speaker design all their lives and are very talented. They both have a very strong following at the Lone Star fest and they both have great sounding rooms.
It's just another flavor of speaker but it might be easier to sneak into the house.
Good luck.
If you are going to a standard 8" or 10" woofer and tweeter in a box then I'll suggest something from Pi Speakers.
A 2 Pi or 2 Pi Tower from Pi Speakers is a good sounding choice, and if you build the cabinets, they go for very little money.
They sound different than the Ultra and the Manzanita but are better than their modest price would suggest. Just like the Manzi's and the Ultra's are better than their price suggests.
The big thing here is they look just like regular box speakers and are designed to be placed right up against the wall. It might make them an easier sell visually than even a standard box speaker. It gets them out of the way.
The guy who runs Pi Speakers, Wayne Parham, is also a regular at The Lone Star Audio Fest. Both he and John have been doing speaker design all their lives and are very talented. They both have a very strong following at the Lone Star fest and they both have great sounding rooms.
It's just another flavor of speaker but it might be easier to sneak into the house.
Good luck.
John and Pano,
Thanks for the input. Sounds like some gains can be had on purchasing better quality components. I plan on adding the bass trap and upgrading the caps. My buddy had some polyester caps rated at 4.8 uF which I paralleled with a 1uF Dayton Audio cap. I am thinking Clarity Cap instead of those polyester caps. On the inductors, I better wait. Those big ones are $$$$.
Thanks for the input. Sounds like some gains can be had on purchasing better quality components. I plan on adding the bass trap and upgrading the caps. My buddy had some polyester caps rated at 4.8 uF which I paralleled with a 1uF Dayton Audio cap. I am thinking Clarity Cap instead of those polyester caps. On the inductors, I better wait. Those big ones are $$$$.
Manzanita Altra Plus OB speaker system
Built that combo for a number of years.... The Seas FR8 will require a pad. Great home theater as well as a very good audiophile speaker with the proper crossover. A pic from 2013. Not in production at this time. So basically a concept picture.
Built that combo for a number of years.... The Seas FR8 will require a pad. Great home theater as well as a very good audiophile speaker with the proper crossover. A pic from 2013. Not in production at this time. So basically a concept picture.
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