Jim that is a wonderful loudspeaker. If I ever get the itch to build another floor stander this will be on my list. The Neo8 is a wonderful driver (I was thinking of hooking it up to a pair of 8s and a RAAL). something like this
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/257165-active-3-way-monitor-project.html
BTW have you see this?
Neo 8 - Neo3PRDRW 3 Way
studiotech (member here) has used it in an OB as well (see pics)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...idbass-18-subwoofer-large-box-ob-imag0080.jpg
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...1d1402241147-ultimate-ob-gallery-imag1237.jpg
Having said all that the Neo8s are expensive, maybe they wont fit Karl's budget.
Karl did you see this one?
SB 240 - April 2013 - Loudspeakermagazine 2013 | Loudspeakerbuilding
Uses SB drivers like a few other designs linked to earlier.
SB 240 - April 2013 - Loudspeakermagazine 2013 | Loudspeakerbuilding
Uses SB drivers like a few other designs linked to earlier.
It is a good value option but, and there will always be a few buts so this is not intended to be dismissive, the SB woofers would prefer an even larger volume than 100 litres. For this type of narrow baffle speaker 100 litres is a bit big hence things like the tweeter being below the midrange. 60-80 litres looks a more comfortable size which was adopted by Daniel's SB 3 way using the same woofers. This is pretty much the sealed box size for these woofers and ports, if used, are probably best tuned to "help a bit" which is good for the transient response, extends the bass perhaps 10 Hz lower than sealed but the SPL below about 80 Hz takes a hit. A subwoofer may be needed.
Opting for a similarly priced but less efficient pair of woofer can restore the SPL below 80 Hz and work well in 60-80 litres perhaps even less in some cases. The cost is more power required to get that SPL and poorer midrange performance but the design is using a dedicated midrange anyway. Navin's Peridot speakers are more like this.
Not much point in posting US Dayton designs here is there? I didn't want to dismiss the SB Acoustics designs, but most of them are plain poor. Why would you use a 6" SB17 woofer as a mid in a three way? That's daft, unless you LIKE cone breakup. 😕
This one looks OK, though it misses a trick by not using the dedicated SB12 mid: 3 Vejs SB Acoustics
And Troels' design is just exquisite: 3-Way Classic
Sorry to rant. 😱
This one looks OK, though it misses a trick by not using the dedicated SB12 mid: 3 Vejs SB Acoustics
And Troels' design is just exquisite: 3-Way Classic
Sorry to rant. 😱
Despite the inflated price the RS225-8 is still well suited to a 2x8" woofer, 5" mid and 1" tweeter cabinet and is around the same price as equivalents from, say, SEAS. Mind you knowing the price is so much more here in Europe would make it hard to buy.
At a guess the 6" was chosen for efficiency. Crossing a 6.5" midwoofer to a 1" tweeter is not exactly an uncommon configuration but less so in 3 ways. The 4" SB mid looks a bit inefficient and would dictate a higher crossover.
Navin, hadn't seen that other B&G Neo project. Thanks. I still prefer the Amaroso (I like the extra attention to the mid and woofer enclosures) but yes I am afraid it may be outside the op's budget. Too bad it doesn't use a slightly less expensive tweeter......
andy, it's a shame we haven't established what Karl's criteria is for LF extension. In my mind, I've been thinking at least F3=40Hz. However, no matter which design he chooses, it might be wise to try to tune the speaker in his smallish room to avoid any bass bloat. Below is what one of Jeff B's programs suggest the room gain will look like in a 14' room. In which case, using a smaller Vb and/or tuning lower would probably be the smart way to go to get a flatter in room response.
andy, it's a shame we haven't established what Karl's criteria is for LF extension. In my mind, I've been thinking at least F3=40Hz. However, no matter which design he chooses, it might be wise to try to tune the speaker in his smallish room to avoid any bass bloat. Below is what one of Jeff B's programs suggest the room gain will look like in a 14' room. In which case, using a smaller Vb and/or tuning lower would probably be the smart way to go to get a flatter in room response.
Attachments
First of all the Troels illumina thingy is a waste of time, stupidly priced drivers, you can get better performance for less and his xover is far too high given the design.
But it seems that we are going round in circles.
Right at the start of the thread I recommended the Finalists. These are an 8" 5" 1" that fit your budget, they are fully documented and can be built as a floor standing loudspeaker. They are designed by a very well regarded designer who actively posts over on the HTguide forums, so if you have any questions about turning them into floor standers that would be the place to go.
The RS225 is an amazing 8" driver for the price, both this side and the other side of the pond. Do not discount the Dayton drivers just because they are more expensive from Europe Audio than PartsExpress.
I have the RS225s as the bottom of a three way and you'd have to spend stupid money to get any worthwhile improvement.
The chap who designed the Finalists designed the Statement series too and tons of people have built them and think they are amazing. The designer thinks that the Finalists are better than the Statements and as a result is making a 2nd version of the Statements that upgrades the mid range driver to the same one used in the Finalists. This should say something about how nice of a speaker they are. If you built them I do not think that you would be in any way disappointed.
If you really do want two 8" drivers (over kill unless you want to hit very high SPLs), then wait for the Statement mark 2 to be released and build that.
Perhaps I should let Karl speak for himself but we know that he does not want subwoofers and considers bass from his 6.5" midwoofer inadequate. If you were to ask him what F3 he requires my guess is that he would be rather uncertain. Unsurprisingly there is also less than full agreement from the posters about the required size for the bass driver. Setting aside 5" sealed recommendations, is a 1 x 8" (2 x 6.5") sufficient or is a 2 x 8" required? My view is that clean peak bass is going to be a bit borderline with a single 8" in mid sized rooms. My view on F3 is that it only matters if the configuration can deliver it. For most types of music mid 30s is fine, mid 40s is not much of an issue but mid 50s from sealed cabinets is starting to need subwoofers. Films are different.
We do know that Karl has not responded with much enthusiasm for 3 way monitors preferring narrow baffle floor standing speakers with chamfered baffles. He has a budget aligned with using standard drivers and sensible crossover components. Despite being a popular commercial configuration from modest home theatre speakers to expensive audiophile speakers there doesn't seem to be many documented DIY designs around. It prompted me to rough out a configuration and I am now pondering whether to commit to the much larger task of sorting out the details.
The issue with my current speakers is not so much the lack of bass as such (though it is lacking) but more the quality of the bass. It lacks control and 'definition'.
But bass isnt the main ingredient for me. To be honest I could probably live with a stand mount if it had a bit of punch as long as it did a really good job of the midrange. I remember once being properly impressed with a pair of Dynaudio Focus 140. They were an exciting listen but had a nice clean and defined sound.
But the argument for separate drivers for mid and bass holds it's own and a 3 way looks the way to go. 2x8" woofers in a cab I really worry would be too much when you consider the room size and I don't like listening loud - for some reason when you reach certain levels it causes my left ear to sort of 'flutter' inside.
Narrow baffle towers are very nice in my opinion and I think they tend to look 'right'. They are my favourite. They can be as tall as you like and I think they look good. How I would love a pair of narrow, deep 1.5m tall obelisks in my front room...
^ like that but with drivers on the narrow face lol
But saying that, the 3 way classic that system7 has posted is a good looking design - some people's builds are very good looking.
I don't want to be struggling with importing drivers if it can be avoided. SEAS look incredibly easy to get hold of and they seem to do some popular drivers.
But bass isnt the main ingredient for me. To be honest I could probably live with a stand mount if it had a bit of punch as long as it did a really good job of the midrange. I remember once being properly impressed with a pair of Dynaudio Focus 140. They were an exciting listen but had a nice clean and defined sound.
But the argument for separate drivers for mid and bass holds it's own and a 3 way looks the way to go. 2x8" woofers in a cab I really worry would be too much when you consider the room size and I don't like listening loud - for some reason when you reach certain levels it causes my left ear to sort of 'flutter' inside.
Narrow baffle towers are very nice in my opinion and I think they tend to look 'right'. They are my favourite. They can be as tall as you like and I think they look good. How I would love a pair of narrow, deep 1.5m tall obelisks in my front room...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
^ like that but with drivers on the narrow face lol
But saying that, the 3 way classic that system7 has posted is a good looking design - some people's builds are very good looking.
I don't want to be struggling with importing drivers if it can be avoided. SEAS look incredibly easy to get hold of and they seem to do some popular drivers.
Really, 10" wide, 16" deep and maybe 50" tall (1.5m was a bit extreme lol) would be a comfortable physical size for my room. WAF doesn't come into it! Ear height when seated is 32".
And I don't believe what his software is predicting.
5db/octave over the octave from 40Hz down to 20Hz, is not possible unless the room is sealed AND rigid.
This can be the speaker but it can also be the room or source and receiver location if one or both are near a wall. Moving the speaker and listening position around should help gather information on the likely culprit/s.
2x8" is sized for clean transients when listening at 85dB average levels at around 3m in a medium sized room. This is the sound level in a cinema and is roughly the sound level that recorded music needs to be replayed if it is to be tonally balanced. Quieter than this and the bass and treble will be perceived as lacking. It would be able to play a fair bit louder but would not do so cleanly. To some extent hi-fi enthusiasts seem to have become accustomed to overly small speakers that do not play cleanly at standard levels. When they hear professional speakers they tend to call them "dynamic" or something similarly positive rather than just normal.
This can be achieved by putting the woofer in the side and crossing a bit lower. Alternatively using a 4 x 6.5" woofers, 2 x 3"-4" midrange and 1 tweeter in a WWMTMWW arrangement although this may struggle with bass SPL.
Without firm guidance on what you want you are likely to get wide ranging suggestions about what others want you to want.
If you are referring to purchasing Dayton drivers from Germany or Holland then it is no more difficult than purchasing from a UK supplier. Ordering from the US would be a bigger task. Having said that at least one of the continental suppliers has a patchy track record and a couple of the UK suppliers have good long track records.
EuropeAudio isn't exactly like importing can be, tax is paid on purchase (at a lower rate then here too!) postage is often less than you can pay when buying from in the UK and the parts tend to arrive very quickly if they are in stock. There's nothing complicated or difficult about it.
I think the only speaker I have heard with drivers in the side were Bosendorfer VC7.
In the US they are but you also need to include postage from the continent which can be free in the UK. Standard range 8" drivers from the main suppliers do not vary greatly in price, sitting in the range of perhaps £50-£70, making it more a case of which is better suited for the intended use in terms of efficiency, box size, power handling and the like.
Well, I do.
However my next question was going to ask how well the room is sealed (doors left closed or open) and if we are looking at something like drywall or concrete walls? The graph posted was a guestimate using 60% room losses but it could well be that that is too low. My main points were that the smaller room is going to affect room gain and that the optimal course of action is to tune the speaker to that specific room. This was to suggest that the SB23NRXS's (as well as possibly other drivers) might actually be well suited in a smaller than optimal box in this situation (or more accurately, tuned with a more drooping response than usual).
Yes, I would tend to agree. And that was the 1st speaker that came to mind for me as well after Karl's original post.
I think part of the problem here may be that the project's design criteria or goals haven't been fully defined yet. Here's how I'm looking at it so far and probably in order of importance:
Budget - £500 to £800
Sound Quality - Clarity, detail, imaging, openness, and soundstaging all seem to be high on your list. I would suggest you need to buy the best mid and tweeter within your budget to achieve these. So that means low harmonic distortion and low resonant drivers that also get good subjective reviews. You also want to build a very solid and well braced cabinet. And because you mentioned the Martin Logans, an open back speaker (like the Sunflowers) or a speaker with some form of open back mid (like the Finalists, the Statement Monitors or the Amarosos) should be strongly considered.
F3 - For music, 40Hz is usually fine although, depending on what you listen to, there can be musical content below that. For movies that's a different story. But whatever you choose, I suggest playing around with the tuning to suit your room (that will mean trying different port lengths and maybe different box volumes). If this seems like it will be over your head, don't worry - any number of people here can walk you through different box tunings.
SPL - ???? This is where confusion is reigning. Do you need max SPL's of 90dB 1W/1m? 95dB? 100dB? Pretty typical is around 100-105dB 1W/m but you say you can't handle too much volume and you are not really trying to fill a big space with sound. If you had an SPL meter and could measure what the max levels are at which you currently listen, that would be helpful.
Because for eg, if you are normally listening at 75-80dB with peaks of 10-15dB, then a 2-way speaker like the Kairos will be perfect for you. But if you are more like 85dB with 10-15dB peaks then you need to move to a speaker with more and/or bigger drivers. And here is 1 of the trade-offs involved in that - with a 2-way, you have to buy less drivers so you can spend more per driver and therefore should be able to get a better quality driver for your money. But with more drivers per speaker, the amount you can spend per driver goes down and so you are making something of a compromise usually in terms of driver quality. And you have to buy more xo parts as well. But 1 of the other trade-off is that with multiple drivers, each driver is operating within its comfortable range, so performance might be improved. Speaker building is all about the trade-offs.
Impedance - 4ohm or 8ohm nominal will be fine with your amp.
Size - standmount or tall and somewhat narrow. You seem fairly flexible here. One thing to note in terms of placement is that open back speakers tend to work best when they are placed out from the front wall. I would say at least 3', maybe a bit more. You'll need to decide if that works for you or not. I'll also second the suggestion that you move your listening position out a foot or 2 from the back wall. Bass should improve as a result.
Your sitting position also might be considered a little lower than typical. Usually tweeter height is the same as ear height although you have wiggle room here but just watch out that a tall floorstander doesn't have the tweeter height above 40" or something.
Karl, if you can correct any mistakes here or fill in any of the blanks, I think that would be helpful. Also, if you have any specific questions about any of the builds or drivers or anything mentioned goes over your head, I encourage you to just ask. You may find that easier/faster than trying to find the answers on your own. Maybe... 😀
How far away is Karl sitting?
Some music contains 25dB peaks, 20dB is a typical overhead used in recording, 15dB is defensible on practical grounds but 10dB would clip many of the overly compressed modern pop recordings.
83dBC average is the standard sound level for films. There is no standard level for the music industry but playback levels are normally around this level. It is hard to see this as anything but a minimum requirement for high fidelity speakers. So in round numbers: 85dB average, +15dB peaks and +10 dB for sitting 3 metres away gives a 110dB as a rough minimum which is about what you get with 2x8" woofers, an efficient 5" midrange and a reasonable 1" tweeter.
Now there is room gain but there are also cancellations due to the room modes. How best to account for those?
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