Well the Zaph three way tower is back to the 6" bass units again. There are two of them, but that won't make it go any lower .
I will stress again, that if you really want better bass you need to go 8".
I guess the choice is yours. Build a slightly bigger speaker and get what you want sonically. Or build something a little more aesthetically pleasing, but live with the limitations that that will impose.
If you want to go the two way 6" route and maximise what that can offer then look no further than the standard two way version of the ZRT from Zaph. The SS woofer is very competent when it comes to bass and Zaph places it in a nice large ported box which maximises its extension.
Beyond that you need to use a bigger driver.
I will stress again, that if you really want better bass you need to go 8".
I guess the choice is yours. Build a slightly bigger speaker and get what you want sonically. Or build something a little more aesthetically pleasing, but live with the limitations that that will impose.
If you want to go the two way 6" route and maximise what that can offer then look no further than the standard two way version of the ZRT from Zaph. The SS woofer is very competent when it comes to bass and Zaph places it in a nice large ported box which maximises its extension.
Beyond that you need to use a bigger driver.
Meh, you'd be surprised. I've got 2 8" bass drivers and 4 10" subs in my room and it's only 4x3.5 meters.
The reason why people say you shouldn't have big speakers in small rooms is more to do with the fact that a larger speaker will go deeper. This in turn will let it excite more room modes as it digs deeper. The other reasons is that people tend to want to put speakers closer to walls the smaller room. If the loudspeakers have a decent amount of bafflestep compensation built in then this will make them seem over bearing.
How do you intend on positioning the loudspeakers you build?
The reason why people say you shouldn't have big speakers in small rooms is more to do with the fact that a larger speaker will go deeper. This in turn will let it excite more room modes as it digs deeper. The other reasons is that people tend to want to put speakers closer to walls the smaller room. If the loudspeakers have a decent amount of bafflestep compensation built in then this will make them seem over bearing.
How do you intend on positioning the loudspeakers you build?
My room is 14' square.
As I sit on my sofa, which is up against one wall in the centre, the my speakers are along the wall opposite, 10" from the back wall, 16" from side walls. Equipment sits in the middle. I had to play with the position a lot to get the imaging right. Tonal balance ain't brilliant but I can live with that to an extent. It's the stereo image that I need to be right for me to really enjoy music. I found slight changes in toe and proximity to the boundaries made a huge difference.
As I sit on my sofa, which is up against one wall in the centre, the my speakers are along the wall opposite, 10" from the back wall, 16" from side walls. Equipment sits in the middle. I had to play with the position a lot to get the imaging right. Tonal balance ain't brilliant but I can live with that to an extent. It's the stereo image that I need to be right for me to really enjoy music. I found slight changes in toe and proximity to the boundaries made a huge difference.
I think we are iterating towards something like a 3 way with a pair of 8" drivers, a reasonably efficient midrange plus tweeter in a chamfered baffle. Drivers from the standard range rather than the exotic range. Parts without wood to cost around £500.
Something like this although a fully worked out design has not been presented. Does that look about right?
I kind of am leaning in the same general direction as Greg, here.
My first, off the cuff, thought, would be the Econowave concept, as a bunch of us collectively came up with, on the AudioKarma board. A good, low-distortion, low-coloration, constant-dispersion horn flare, a good driver, and a good woofer, in a proper box, with a proven (in MANY iterations) basic crossover design, that's easily tweakable for good results.
What we've come to call the "Econowave Deluixe", using a QSC- derived 10x14" waveguide and either the B&C DE250 or equivalent horn driver (all available from Parts Express), and a good 10" or 12" woofer of your choice (as long as it can play cleanly and flat up to 2KHz), with the proper variation of the Econowave crossover design (one is for woofers equal or less to 95dB sensitivity, and one is for woofers greater than 95dB sensitivity)... build a suitable box, and you're in business.
With that varied of a musical taste (everything from Bjork to Miles Davis to Bad Religion), the material collectively is going to tax just about every aspect of speaker design, IME. Something like this certainly sounds like a good prospect, of at least having a chance of meeting all the goals stated...
Regards,
Gordon.
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This sounds good to me.
Those look really really cool. A shame there is no set in stone design though as they would be a good build. I could imagine those in my listening room spilling out awesomeness.
Budget seems to be exactly where I want to be too.
Hmmmm.
I am not familiar with most of the documented designs out there but I would expect the configuration to be reasonably popular. Perhaps others are aware of similar designs?
I know theses are back to a small mid woofer 2-way design but what are the thoughts on these?
The design is so nicely presented and looks well considered. It makes me feel confident that the product is a good one...
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Illumina-66.htm
The Ellam Flex 3W is seriously nice but the cost of the drivers is prohibitive. And I haven't even added up the crossover cost!
The design is so nicely presented and looks well considered. It makes me feel confident that the product is a good one...
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Illumina-66.htm
The Ellam Flex 3W is seriously nice but the cost of the drivers is prohibitive. And I haven't even added up the crossover cost!
This is way over your stated budget and you will end up with close to the same inadequate bass you currently have. Unless you revise your requirements it doesn't seem to make much sense.
This is not a wise approach and I suspect you know it. The designs on the site you linked to are not bad designs but quite a few are not particularly good value for money.
Just 'better' speakers is what I'm after. I think the thing is, my speakers are so 'meh' that pretty much anything would be an improvement.
I want clarity in vocals. I want to hear the subtle textures of a crunchy synth and the 'air' around a sax. Bit of punch would be nice too. It doesn't have to go uber deep or be able to produce huge SPL as I value my hearing a great deal and being 27 I'd like to have my hearing intact for a good many years to come.
I want clarity in vocals. I want to hear the subtle textures of a crunchy synth and the 'air' around a sax. Bit of punch would be nice too. It doesn't have to go uber deep or be able to produce huge SPL as I value my hearing a great deal and being 27 I'd like to have my hearing intact for a good many years to come.
Karl, I wonder if you could do a bit with those Epos M12i cabinets?
I don't quite know where I'm going on this, but if we knew the radius of the tweeter outer plates, and the dimensions of the cutout on the bass and the diameter of the fixing holes, it might be possible to change one or both drive units.
Peerless do that bass cutout shape. And tweeters are usually 94 or 104mm.
We had a look at the frequency response, and I do see the typical 4kHz cone resonance bump you would expect on a 6 or 8 inch polycone unit. But mainly I think a second or third order filter on the tweet would work much better. Not inconceivable you do a serial crossover either. Just indulge me and get some measurements here. 🙂
I don't quite know where I'm going on this, but if we knew the radius of the tweeter outer plates, and the dimensions of the cutout on the bass and the diameter of the fixing holes, it might be possible to change one or both drive units.
Peerless do that bass cutout shape. And tweeters are usually 94 or 104mm.
We had a look at the frequency response, and I do see the typical 4kHz cone resonance bump you would expect on a 6 or 8 inch polycone unit. But mainly I think a second or third order filter on the tweet would work much better. Not inconceivable you do a serial crossover either. Just indulge me and get some measurements here. 🙂
If you want good performance with a drivers+crossover budget of around £500 it would probably be wisest to pay little attention to designs using absurdly expensive drivers. A pair of standard range 8" woofers competently used are going to outperform exotic 6.5" midwoofers in the woofer range. A standard range 4"-5" midrange may well match an exotic 6.5" midwoofer in the midrange (pluses and minuses). And there are some very good £30-£40 standard range tweeters.
A 1" tweeter, 5" midrange with 2x8" woofers in a narrow baffle is a popular commercial design even at the higher end (e.g. Revel Studio 2, Sony SS-AR1,...). It seems odd to me that you are finding it hard to find a documented design using standard range drivers. Perhaps it is an opportunity.
A 1" tweeter, 5" midrange with 2x8" woofers in a narrow baffle is a popular commercial design even at the higher end (e.g. Revel Studio 2, Sony SS-AR1,...). It seems odd to me that you are finding it hard to find a documented design using standard range drivers. Perhaps it is an opportunity.
Hi KarlD,
Just taking a lunch break and read your thread. A number of years ago I wanted to do something similar and understand your plight. Make some better speakers and upgrade. Seems simple and there should be a straight forward kit I could build. Follow instructions and done!
Please tell me to get out of here if you already know the following, then sorry for the lame post!
Hopefully some background info will help with reasoning for some potential bad advice I'm about to pen. I don't listen to music loud as my location doesn't allow it. Physical space is around 16 feet by 16 feet, then opens up to another small space. My space places a large bump in frequency response at around 30hz and suckout at around 55Hz. I have to design my speakers to roll off quite early of 30hz for them to not sound boomy.
I'm assuming your room/listening position is such that the room does not excite the frequency ranges excessively below 80Hz or you would be saying your speakers sound slightly boomy. As others have commented, you need a design that models into 30s.
What does all the above have to do with a suggestion? Depending on how picky you are of bass quality, the bass of the speaker MUST be designed with the room on mind since you have a nice LP system and do not want to eq digitally.
Picking proven kits with good extension is a good place to start, but if you are picky about the lower bass registers, 300hz to 30hz (this is only a personal preference of mine) and I think maybe you are because we listen to much of the same music, then if possible:
Borrow a SUB (with known frequency response), buy a USB mic (they are relatively cheap) and run a couple of frequency sweeps of the sub in a few different locations with mic in the listening position. Post response to DIY audio then pick kit that gives you what you are looking for in terms of extension/reponse. I spent untold hours trying to get the 300-30hz right in my room. When that was solved, everything sounded better from bottom to top. Even though the top stayed the same it sounded like a new speaker.
I made a number of kits and non sounded like I wanted, not because of the speakers or design but because of my bad room. Small investment for a potentially better system?
Just taking a lunch break and read your thread. A number of years ago I wanted to do something similar and understand your plight. Make some better speakers and upgrade. Seems simple and there should be a straight forward kit I could build. Follow instructions and done!
Please tell me to get out of here if you already know the following, then sorry for the lame post!
Hopefully some background info will help with reasoning for some potential bad advice I'm about to pen. I don't listen to music loud as my location doesn't allow it. Physical space is around 16 feet by 16 feet, then opens up to another small space. My space places a large bump in frequency response at around 30hz and suckout at around 55Hz. I have to design my speakers to roll off quite early of 30hz for them to not sound boomy.
I'm assuming your room/listening position is such that the room does not excite the frequency ranges excessively below 80Hz or you would be saying your speakers sound slightly boomy. As others have commented, you need a design that models into 30s.
What does all the above have to do with a suggestion? Depending on how picky you are of bass quality, the bass of the speaker MUST be designed with the room on mind since you have a nice LP system and do not want to eq digitally.
Picking proven kits with good extension is a good place to start, but if you are picky about the lower bass registers, 300hz to 30hz (this is only a personal preference of mine) and I think maybe you are because we listen to much of the same music, then if possible:
Borrow a SUB (with known frequency response), buy a USB mic (they are relatively cheap) and run a couple of frequency sweeps of the sub in a few different locations with mic in the listening position. Post response to DIY audio then pick kit that gives you what you are looking for in terms of extension/reponse. I spent untold hours trying to get the 300-30hz right in my room. When that was solved, everything sounded better from bottom to top. Even though the top stayed the same it sounded like a new speaker.
I made a number of kits and non sounded like I wanted, not because of the speakers or design but because of my bad room. Small investment for a potentially better system?
A three-way is ace. But not easy to build IMO.
I'm listening to my old 8" bass Monitor Audio R300 with a mylar Visaton DT94 94mm tweeter at the moment. Thought I'd take a break from the cone tweeters.
Very simple filter, but very smooth indeed. Nice closed box bass. It's fun because you can fit almost any tweeter you like and it still works. 😎
I throw in some data for the similar Epos M12.2 which has unfiltered polycone bass and a 4.7uF cap on the metal tweeter, which is like what Karl his listening to right now.
I'm listening to my old 8" bass Monitor Audio R300 with a mylar Visaton DT94 94mm tweeter at the moment. Thought I'd take a break from the cone tweeters.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Very simple filter, but very smooth indeed. Nice closed box bass. It's fun because you can fit almost any tweeter you like and it still works. 😎
I throw in some data for the similar Epos M12.2 which has unfiltered polycone bass and a 4.7uF cap on the metal tweeter, which is like what Karl his listening to right now.
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By not easy to build do you mean to physically construct the cabinets? Because that is the only aspect of this whole thing I can actually do!
Perhaps I should let him speak for himself but I think he means it is more of a challenge to design and build. If you are following someone else's design then I cannot see it mattering much if it is a 2, 3, 4 or whatever way. My first DIY speaker followed a design in Wireless World and was a 3 way. My second was a 2 way to my own design and it was a lot more difficult.
If I could build a speaker of a format like that for £500 to maybe £800 from a documented design I would be laughing and start on the cabs tomorrow!
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