Thanks Galu - it's really helpful to converse with someone who speaks the lingo and understands what I am trying to describe.
The cam gear doesn't seem to engage at all with any levers when Auto is chosen so I'm assuming that this is seized up? Not sure which levers are involved in activating the cam gear from the control lever unit?
My main problem here is in trying to reconcile what I have with what is shown on page 34 of the Service Sheet - attached to Post #40 above.
The picture below is before extensive degreasing:-
As the cam assembly (35) is below the bridge sub assembly (36) I need to somehow gain access - lots of rivets but very few bolts?
The cam gear doesn't seem to engage at all with any levers when Auto is chosen so I'm assuming that this is seized up? Not sure which levers are involved in activating the cam gear from the control lever unit?
My main problem here is in trying to reconcile what I have with what is shown on page 34 of the Service Sheet - attached to Post #40 above.
The picture below is before extensive degreasing:-
As the cam assembly (35) is below the bridge sub assembly (36) I need to somehow gain access - lots of rivets but very few bolts?
In your underside view, I can see a hex nut (partially obscured by the black wires) which may be retaining the bottom of the cam gear shaft.
Can you locate the corresponding hex nut on the topside view which may be be retaining the top of the cam gear shaft?
If these do prove to be the shaft retaining nuts, then the post by A70BBen in the following link begins to make some sense:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=87116
Disclaimer: I am working more in the dark than you are - so ca' canny! 🤓
Can you locate the corresponding hex nut on the topside view which may be be retaining the top of the cam gear shaft?
If these do prove to be the shaft retaining nuts, then the post by A70BBen in the following link begins to make some sense:
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=87116
Disclaimer: I am working more in the dark than you are - so ca' canny! 🤓
Undid the shaft retaining nuts and heated the shaft with my hot air gun but it won't come out - it rotates and moves up and down a few clicks but that's it!
Thanks for the Vinyl Engine link - I may send a PM to A70BBen
Thanks for the Vinyl Engine link - I may send a PM to A70BBen
I presume the cam gear is rotating along with the shaft.
I've found this description (edited) of what to do after removing the hex nuts:
You may find at this point that that the shaft rotates along with the cam gear! Now, with a small propane torch, from the bottom of the chassis, heat the centre of the cam gear, with the shaft inside. When you get the shaft hot enough, you will be able to push it out from the top, perhaps needing to grip it from below with pliers and pull it out. It might even drop out of its own accord under gravity. The linkages and associated parts will keep the main gear/cam in position.
More information can be found in post #9 of this link: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64247
Note there is a presumption that the 210 cam gear arrangement is similar to that of the Type A described in the link(s).
Do keep us posted regarding your progress.
'I presume the cam gear is rotating along with the shaft.'
Well no - the shaft rotates independently of the cam gear - good/bad??
I can wiggle it about and it feels as if the thread of the shaft may be trapped by the cam gear/levers?
Well no - the shaft rotates independently of the cam gear - good/bad??
I can wiggle it about and it feels as if the thread of the shaft may be trapped by the cam gear/levers?
If the loosened shaft is rotating fully through 360 degrees and independently of the cam gear, I would interpret that as "good".
However, I'm not sure I understand your final sentence which implies that the shaft is trapped.
It's hard to diagnose from a distance. One has really got to study the workings of the mechanism first hand to see what it is trying to do and what it is not actually achieving. The way the cam gear assembly is intended to operate is described in the Garrard 210 Manual, a pdf of which I include here for anyone who would care to join in. https://www.kevinchant.com/uploads/7/1/0/8/7108231/garrard_210.pdf
However, I'm not sure I understand your final sentence which implies that the shaft is trapped.
It's hard to diagnose from a distance. One has really got to study the workings of the mechanism first hand to see what it is trying to do and what it is not actually achieving. The way the cam gear assembly is intended to operate is described in the Garrard 210 Manual, a pdf of which I include here for anyone who would care to join in. https://www.kevinchant.com/uploads/7/1/0/8/7108231/garrard_210.pdf
'However, I'm not sure I understand your final sentence which implies that the shaft is trapped.'
The shaft rotates a full 360 degrees but only moves up and down by about 1-2 mm - that's what I meant by 'trapped'.
This afternoon I'm going to attack the cam gear shaft once again with my hot air de-soldering station at 400 degrees - it has a small nozzle that should be able to get between the levers. Failing that I'm going to try Brake and Clutch Cleaner which I've used previously in other projects to remove oil, grease and dust!
The shaft rotates a full 360 degrees but only moves up and down by about 1-2 mm - that's what I meant by 'trapped'.
This afternoon I'm going to attack the cam gear shaft once again with my hot air de-soldering station at 400 degrees - it has a small nozzle that should be able to get between the levers. Failing that I'm going to try Brake and Clutch Cleaner which I've used previously in other projects to remove oil, grease and dust!
Provided I am interpreting the information correctly, if the shaft is rotating independently of the cam gear then the cam is not seized to the shaft. In that case, wouldn't the problem lie elsewhere? As I said, difficult to diagnose at a distance.
Through extensive and repeated application of hot air and grease remover we have finally managed to free up the cam gear and have partial success with the auto-changer mechanism - hurrah! Everything has been reassembled with new ball bearings and a light application of moly grease around the bearing thrust washers, plastic washer and ball cage.
I do, however, need to alter the stylus drop down position but I know how that adjustment is made.
More importantly I appear to be experiencing problems with records dropping! The record overarm is free and its vertical shaft has been lubricated with sewing machine oil but the the spindle pawl appears to be quite sticky and doesn't spring back when pushed? The release lever on the underside of the spindle assembly is free and does move the spindle pawl although it doesn't spring back? The Garrard Service Sheet (No. 209 p.21) states advises:-
I've been extremely careful when working on the underside of the changer having it temporarily mounted across an empty wooden wine crate which supports it at three corners. There is no sign of the spindle being bent or damaged (?) but the spindle pawl appears to be a problem? I'm hoping that this is just some stray oil, grease or dust and wondered if the spindle pawl could be removed and flushed out using IPA or similar?
I do, however, need to alter the stylus drop down position but I know how that adjustment is made.
More importantly I appear to be experiencing problems with records dropping! The record overarm is free and its vertical shaft has been lubricated with sewing machine oil but the the spindle pawl appears to be quite sticky and doesn't spring back when pushed? The release lever on the underside of the spindle assembly is free and does move the spindle pawl although it doesn't spring back? The Garrard Service Sheet (No. 209 p.21) states advises:-
I've been extremely careful when working on the underside of the changer having it temporarily mounted across an empty wooden wine crate which supports it at three corners. There is no sign of the spindle being bent or damaged (?) but the spindle pawl appears to be a problem? I'm hoping that this is just some stray oil, grease or dust and wondered if the spindle pawl could be removed and flushed out using IPA or similar?
I assume that you pushed the long changer spindle in fully until you heard it snap in place?
Is the notch in the spindle facing in the correct direction?
Is the notch in the spindle facing in the correct direction?
This may be the first and last Garrard auto-changer I ever restore!
I flushed out the spindle pawl and left it soaking in IPA overnight. Thoroughly cleaned and dried the next day and I am now having success with records dropping and with the auto-changer mechanism going through it's whole cycle including turning it off when the tonearm returns to it's rest.
So what's the problem now?
After refitting the turntable platter to the spindle the groove for the retaining clip is still below the level of the platter so I can't refit the clip? This tends to imply that the spindle retaining screws aren't in the correct position, but they are. If I adjust the retaining screws so that the groove for the retaining clip is exposed then the base of the record pushing pawl is not in contact with the spring device underneath, so records don't drop!
I flushed out the spindle pawl and left it soaking in IPA overnight. Thoroughly cleaned and dried the next day and I am now having success with records dropping and with the auto-changer mechanism going through it's whole cycle including turning it off when the tonearm returns to it's rest.
So what's the problem now?
After refitting the turntable platter to the spindle the groove for the retaining clip is still below the level of the platter so I can't refit the clip? This tends to imply that the spindle retaining screws aren't in the correct position, but they are. If I adjust the retaining screws so that the groove for the retaining clip is exposed then the base of the record pushing pawl is not in contact with the spring device underneath, so records don't drop!
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Och weel, Donald, you could always dispense with the platter retaining clip - unless you plan on transporting the stereogram upside down!
I know how you feel though - you're so near that you want to get it just right. Hopefully it'll take just a wee bit more fettling!
Could your servicing of the ball race bearing have introduced a dimensional error?
Long shot, but I presume the platter is fully seated on the platter spindle taper - no fouling there?
I know how you feel though - you're so near that you want to get it just right. Hopefully it'll take just a wee bit more fettling!
Could your servicing of the ball race bearing have introduced a dimensional error?
Long shot, but I presume the platter is fully seated on the platter spindle taper - no fouling there?
Thanks Galu for your ongoing support and encouragement.
Not meaning to detract in any way from your excellent advice and guidance I do wonder where all the Garrard auto-changer users are lurking?
'Could your servicing of the ball race bearing have introduced a dimensional error?'
When reassembling the ball race bearing the only change I made was to use moly grease as it helps keep the ball bearings in place. Maybe I'll strip it out again and just use sewing machine oil. Perhaps I could do away with the plastic washer?
'Long shot, but I presume the platter is fully seated on the platter spindle taper - no fouling there?'
The platter and platter spindle taper are perfectly flush so I don't think there is an issue there?
Not meaning to detract in any way from your excellent advice and guidance I do wonder where all the Garrard auto-changer users are lurking?
'Could your servicing of the ball race bearing have introduced a dimensional error?'
When reassembling the ball race bearing the only change I made was to use moly grease as it helps keep the ball bearings in place. Maybe I'll strip it out again and just use sewing machine oil. Perhaps I could do away with the plastic washer?
'Long shot, but I presume the platter is fully seated on the platter spindle taper - no fouling there?'
The platter and platter spindle taper are perfectly flush so I don't think there is an issue there?
Those of us who have restored old record changers tend to force the memories out of our minds, like the aftermath of seeing violence. No good can come from remembering...
All good fortune,
Chris
All good fortune,
Chris
The plastic washer may be incorporated to provide a slight cushioning effect.
How thick is it?
P.S. Garrard recommends light oil rather than grease for the ball race bearing in my Garrard SP25 MKII.
A replacement ball bearing? Of the correct diameter of course? Just another straw to clutch! 😉
'A replacement ball bearing? Of the correct diameter of course?' - hopefully the ball bearings I ordered are indeed 3/32" but I will of course check with my micrometer!
Apart from the minor irritation of the 'groove for the retaining clip' issue everything now appears to be up and working!
I've adjusted both the stylus drop down point and pressure and have checked the turntable speed with my iPhone RPM app - 45 and 33 both on the money! I have a proper stroboscope so will check that later.
One final point (hopefully) is that the stylus/cartridge is very slightly off the vertical so is there an adjustment for this?
Apart from the minor irritation of the 'groove for the retaining clip' issue everything now appears to be up and working!
I've adjusted both the stylus drop down point and pressure and have checked the turntable speed with my iPhone RPM app - 45 and 33 both on the money! I have a proper stroboscope so will check that later.
One final point (hopefully) is that the stylus/cartridge is very slightly off the vertical so is there an adjustment for this?
Re retaining clip: Can you reduce the thickness of the plastic washer? (You didn't tell me how thick it is.)
Re azimuth adjustment: Can the removable headshell be twisted/rotated slightly in order to get the stylus vertical?
The alternative is to fit a paper shim between the cartridge and the headshell.
Re azimuth adjustment: Can the removable headshell be twisted/rotated slightly in order to get the stylus vertical?
The alternative is to fit a paper shim between the cartridge and the headshell.