There is NO 32A, EU works on 230V, so this amp will fall under the previous mentioned compliance.
Even more because the mains input is not even 32A compliant otherwise.
I have no idea why you keep repeating that and where it even comes from?
Also I am not here to discuss what those regulations mean.
So if you have never worked with them (I have, since it's my job), I would like to leave it there.
If you're unfamiliar with those things, I am happy to explain a thing or two.
Keep in mind that explaining is not defending.
So in other words, I am happy to discuss this matter with people who have worked and have experience with those regulations.
As well as OWN these documents.
They are hard to interpret sometimes and there are always exceptions.
But to make a long (and for some expensive) story short @mbrennwa .
ANY audio device above 70W HAS to comply with those regulations. That is not the discussion point here.
Or they need to have at least adequate prove that they don't, which practically comes down to the same thing.
Since this can only be determined by the same mandatory tests. (down by a third party "lab")
A part of this compliance is to have enough PFC and/or spit low enough harmonics back into the mains.
(in a nutshell)
Under normal conditions you WON'T pass this test with a regular Class-AB or a Class-D amplifier with a linear power supply above 70W.
A Class-A amplifier behaves a little different, since the constant current load is significantly higher, but at those powers, based also on my own experiences, I really doubt that would make any difference.
Anyhow, that even doesn't matter, since the amplifier is rated higher that 70W anyway, so Pass Labs still has the obligation to show prove that they are compliant. Aka; show that they went through the tests and got approval.
Even if their amplifier won't spit any additional harmonics back to the net or not is irrelevant.
A CE sticker is NOT sign of approval. In Europe companies carry the responsibility themselves.
Which in practice means that everyone can slap a CE sticker on his device.
And to wake you up from dreaming, I have been and worked for so many company.
Especially smaller companies don't do any of these tests and work on the good faith and basic (safety) knowledge of the engineers. If you say that's BS, I don't care, not to sound arrogant, but I think I have seen more with my own eyes.
For me that's NOT a discussion point anymore, so I won't even go into any discussion if that's true or not.
Before people draw totally the wrong conclusions (since they often do).
I am also absolutely NOT saying that this amplifier falls into that category.
I am only just asking questions.
You DO say those things...and there's nothing shameful in it.
There are two indication of FRAUD :
1: lower output power than declared which is debatable as neither the german engineer nor the Pass specs provide the frequency or range of frequencies those power measurements were done and also the equipment being 7 years old might have been defective, like having the filter capacitors dry or something...
If the output power is not ok in all audio range yet can be measured to be right at some frequencies on some loads...then it's the usual DECEPTION that almost all audio companies suffer for about 30 years now.When they say measurements don't count it means they don't count to them...
2.Unlawfull CE sticker which is not debatable.
The rest is "high end " propaganda 🙂
There are two indication of FRAUD :
1: lower output power than declared which is debatable as neither the german engineer nor the Pass specs provide the frequency or range of frequencies those power measurements were done and also the equipment being 7 years old might have been defective, like having the filter capacitors dry or something...
If the output power is not ok in all audio range yet can be measured to be right at some frequencies on some loads...then it's the usual DECEPTION that almost all audio companies suffer for about 30 years now.When they say measurements don't count it means they don't count to them...
2.Unlawfull CE sticker which is not debatable.
The rest is "high end " propaganda 🙂
I would never say that someone committed "fraud", which is a pretty strong word.
Extremely often things are done with the best intentions.
You can;t draw conclusions from things that haven't been fully proven.
Technically speaking there is even no warranty on this product anymore I think?
If that's true, it's automatically case closed.
Kudo's for companies still supporting such old products!!
As for the CE sticker, it's perfectly lawful to just put a sticker on a device.
That's just how it works in the EU. They have decided to prioritize development over strict regulations.
So it's not uncommon at all that some companies do the (expensive) testing afterwards or work with some kind of similarity principal. (we made this product in the past, and this is just a very small upgrade which isn't substantially different).
In the end these things only hold a legal value.
And things a legally valid, unless proven otherwise.
So no, I still don't draw any conclusions.
If a product is marketed as high-end or not, and what my opinion is about such products, is totally irrelevant.
There is nothing wrong with making a good quality product, whatever that is.
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I said what I said: indications of Fraud, and I also said which is debatable and which is not debatable according to the documents you posted.So I decline my responsability if your posts aren't professional.Make a choice! If you can't stick to your guns then maybe choosing a life of a monk would be better...
You've said that you're totally responsible for sticking that CE mark as a manufacturer, and you've also shawn that the equipment can't pass thè european predicaments because of the 70watts limit in the law.The law might be stupid...we have all sort of stupid laws in Europe, crossing it "the american way" is a right won after the D day 🙂 , yet when you put two indications of fraud together it is an indication of premeditated fraud.Ask any lawyer about it...The defence needs to destroy at least one of two indications, then there's no more premeditation...
Still...if I'd be NP , I'd do the same with the CE sticker, cause many of the EU laws are really stupid.
So it all relates to what's debatable or not and I think it's NOT debatable that there's a clear indication of premeditated fuzziness in specifying power parameters.Is fuzziness illegal? You know better than me 😉 Compare those specs to some amplifier specs from Kenwood , Yamaha, Rotel , Hitachi...etc made in the 80's and you'll see clearly the difference between high end and hi-fi specs .When the germans , probably unhappy with the results of D day event 🙂 did their DIN 45500 norms they probably did it to put an end to some fraudulent habits in the industry or just to indicate a clear way to manufacturers .Not sure about it .Japanese had their own even stricter standards.
The "high end" grey area brought back the real fraud in audio.
Here's one of the most iconic figure of "high end " market telling what he REALLY KNOWS about his designs:
I remember seeing a video with NP talking about his team so I wonder if he really designs his own amplifiers ...
You've said that you're totally responsible for sticking that CE mark as a manufacturer, and you've also shawn that the equipment can't pass thè european predicaments because of the 70watts limit in the law.The law might be stupid...we have all sort of stupid laws in Europe, crossing it "the american way" is a right won after the D day 🙂 , yet when you put two indications of fraud together it is an indication of premeditated fraud.Ask any lawyer about it...The defence needs to destroy at least one of two indications, then there's no more premeditation...
Still...if I'd be NP , I'd do the same with the CE sticker, cause many of the EU laws are really stupid.
So it all relates to what's debatable or not and I think it's NOT debatable that there's a clear indication of premeditated fuzziness in specifying power parameters.Is fuzziness illegal? You know better than me 😉 Compare those specs to some amplifier specs from Kenwood , Yamaha, Rotel , Hitachi...etc made in the 80's and you'll see clearly the difference between high end and hi-fi specs .When the germans , probably unhappy with the results of D day event 🙂 did their DIN 45500 norms they probably did it to put an end to some fraudulent habits in the industry or just to indicate a clear way to manufacturers .Not sure about it .Japanese had their own even stricter standards.
The "high end" grey area brought back the real fraud in audio.
Here's one of the most iconic figure of "high end " market telling what he REALLY KNOWS about his designs:
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This topic is an extreme one for this section...so everything posted here can only be extreme if it aims at being thoughtfull...
I don't think there's any shame to let younsters you've hired on your own money to design amplifiers for you even if you're not in your 70's ...
It's just that when there's enough demand , supply will comply and I don't see medium class europeans used to abide by those stupid laws buying top Pass Labs amplifiers, it will be the guys who can afford to cross most of the EU laws without consequence that will buy his products cause that is how they made their fortune in the first place!
So there's mutual understanding here...
Imagine you'd want to get to NP status!
What would be your chances if you follow the actual european rules! I'd say you have very little chances .
This is exactly the reason why Bruno P is actually dominating this ultraexpensive high end market with very cheap class D amplifiers , the European laws!
You can justify the sale of 50 watts class D amplifiers for 1500 euros only if you want to cover all the R&D and manufacturing expenses from the sales of your first 20 amplifiers...
The new "high end" class D trend is way more fraudulent in nature taking full advantage of stupid laws like indirectly imposing PFC in amplifiers more powerful than 70 watts.
It's very natural in a class D amplifier to have class D SMPS and PFC...so of course that, if the european market gives a financial advantage to amplifiers that takes less than 70 watts , that class d amps naturally populated with smps and pfc's will prevale.
You can't sync a class A amp with its smps and pfc switching frequency unless you like the sound of your SMPS...
But then you get this paradox of selling class D amplifiers made for less than 100 bucks for more than 1500 bucks and blame it on the R&D expenses, and "with all our enormous efforts to please the clients we're not there just yet"...and all the new propaganda surrounding the more efficient class D amps. Then when the hell are those class D amps going to be "there", when they hit 100k $ per 100W/4ohm class D amplifiers?
I get they are efficient, I get they comply with the 70w CE mark, I get they are very low distortions, I don't get the "minimum " 1500 bucks price to justify 10...15 years old R&D paid already by Texas Instruments when you were their chief designer...
I think that the real fraud lies today in the class D area and those efforts to make class D amplifiers have less and less distortions comes from the fact that this is just about the only way to controll distortions in class D amplifiers, to make them as low as possible.You can't get class D amplifiers with the type of H2 distortion class A amp exhibit and class T is the property of Tripath not Hypex...You can hardly get class D amps to be as fast as properly designed clas B or AB amps are and here's where the EU regulations comes at rescuing new "high end" class D amps full of 3 years warranty capacitors populating smps and PFC's....
So I stick to my old guns myself and copy Class B or AB Kenwood's designs from the 80's where they advertised amplifiers with higher distortions than what refurbishing guys on HIFIDO Japan measured 30 years later before recapping...and they were spec'd both thd and imd up to 20khz already in the 80's below the 0.003% mark at 100....400 watts/4 ohms while JC'S Parasound amplifiers in 2015 could only comply with the 0.1% mark they conceeded to THX standard...
I don't think there's any shame to let younsters you've hired on your own money to design amplifiers for you even if you're not in your 70's ...
It's just that when there's enough demand , supply will comply and I don't see medium class europeans used to abide by those stupid laws buying top Pass Labs amplifiers, it will be the guys who can afford to cross most of the EU laws without consequence that will buy his products cause that is how they made their fortune in the first place!
So there's mutual understanding here...
Imagine you'd want to get to NP status!
What would be your chances if you follow the actual european rules! I'd say you have very little chances .
This is exactly the reason why Bruno P is actually dominating this ultraexpensive high end market with very cheap class D amplifiers , the European laws!
You can justify the sale of 50 watts class D amplifiers for 1500 euros only if you want to cover all the R&D and manufacturing expenses from the sales of your first 20 amplifiers...
The new "high end" class D trend is way more fraudulent in nature taking full advantage of stupid laws like indirectly imposing PFC in amplifiers more powerful than 70 watts.
It's very natural in a class D amplifier to have class D SMPS and PFC...so of course that, if the european market gives a financial advantage to amplifiers that takes less than 70 watts , that class d amps naturally populated with smps and pfc's will prevale.
You can't sync a class A amp with its smps and pfc switching frequency unless you like the sound of your SMPS...
But then you get this paradox of selling class D amplifiers made for less than 100 bucks for more than 1500 bucks and blame it on the R&D expenses, and "with all our enormous efforts to please the clients we're not there just yet"...and all the new propaganda surrounding the more efficient class D amps. Then when the hell are those class D amps going to be "there", when they hit 100k $ per 100W/4ohm class D amplifiers?
I get they are efficient, I get they comply with the 70w CE mark, I get they are very low distortions, I don't get the "minimum " 1500 bucks price to justify 10...15 years old R&D paid already by Texas Instruments when you were their chief designer...
I think that the real fraud lies today in the class D area and those efforts to make class D amplifiers have less and less distortions comes from the fact that this is just about the only way to controll distortions in class D amplifiers, to make them as low as possible.You can't get class D amplifiers with the type of H2 distortion class A amp exhibit and class T is the property of Tripath not Hypex...You can hardly get class D amps to be as fast as properly designed clas B or AB amps are and here's where the EU regulations comes at rescuing new "high end" class D amps full of 3 years warranty capacitors populating smps and PFC's....
So I stick to my old guns myself and copy Class B or AB Kenwood's designs from the 80's where they advertised amplifiers with higher distortions than what refurbishing guys on HIFIDO Japan measured 30 years later before recapping...and they were spec'd both thd and imd up to 20khz already in the 80's below the 0.003% mark at 100....400 watts/4 ohms while JC'S Parasound amplifiers in 2015 could only comply with the 0.1% mark they conceeded to THX standard...
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Wikipedia mentioned about "The manufacturer of a product affixes the CE marking to it but has to take certain obligatory steps before the product can bear CE marking. The manufacturer must carry out a conformity assessment, set up a technical file, and sign a Declaration stipulated by the leading legislation for the product. The documentation has to be made available to authorities on request."
I suggest you establish your credential as an authority and ask for documentation in question through proper channel. You do not even show a real name or address in this forum, why should a manufacturer respond to you? In addition to that CE compliance is not applicable to 93+% of world population, there is no point for the rest of us to care for such irrelevant trivia.
even sparrows here in Papaland know that Pa is designing amps for PL and FW, while Wayne is designing preamps ........ and doing all those thing younger ones are tasked to do
(not to mention repairing Porsches and Enterprise Main Console, when needed)
this thread did become ridiculous, from first station
Then you just made NP responsible for false power specs according to the OP, an alleged german engineer we don't know and for false declaration of CE compliance according to @bforce...
It's not that I give a s**t anyway...I can't afford being NP's client anyway and If I'd afford that and wanted his amps I wouldn't probably give a s**t on specs and compliance to EU laws either ...
It's not that I give a s**t anyway...I can't afford being NP's client anyway and If I'd afford that and wanted his amps I wouldn't probably give a s**t on specs and compliance to EU laws either ...
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He has its own company offering design services that has to comply with several regulations , the CE ones being amongst them, so he's probably just envious for not having its company established in the US and having reached a cult status that can break any laws 🙂 I bet Von Leyden and the likes goes to parties where Pass labs amps are used and wears emeral necklesses made in Russia with embargo'ed brazilian stones. The CE laws are made for the rest of us...
Let's just not forget the initial blame on the lack of power which might be a real thing if proven to new amplifiers though...We can easily cut through all the fuzzyness here.Power is power.If the amp is not defective and that's pretty hard to believe in the case of two identical monoaural amplifiers , then this is a real thing.
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The case was lack of power under 1% THD which most probably caused by intentional bias reduction by previous owner, not lack of power per se.
as I said, ridiculous
for ooomhteenth time, instead of starting with and establishing "dunno is there a problem with my amps or with particular test conducted by esteemed service gentleman", it became " PL amp is cheatingly declared to have more watts at 1% than it is having"
.....ridiculous
anyway, Pass and Wayne and rest of Team are in this business eons already, and will stay
as one local Celeb said to Journo, regarding interview - "Write whatever you want, I don't care, just put biiig picture in it"
for ooomhteenth time, instead of starting with and establishing "dunno is there a problem with my amps or with particular test conducted by esteemed service gentleman", it became " PL amp is cheatingly declared to have more watts at 1% than it is having"
.....ridiculous
anyway, Pass and Wayne and rest of Team are in this business eons already, and will stay
as one local Celeb said to Journo, regarding interview - "Write whatever you want, I don't care, just put biiig picture in it"
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call me biased
I'll always take PL's Fraud, and leave Verity of majority of HiEndFiFi producers to Preacher believing Suckers
main thing Pa is doing all these years hanging with Greedy Boyz is teaching them (us) one thing: "Use your brain"
and man like that is having any need to boost data of his own amp?
Because the 32A is listed in the Pass Labs spec sheet as rated output. Also because a very early box in the decision tree for choosing whether the standard applies shows that anything equal to or above 16A does not fit within this standard. At least that's the way I read it, but once again, as admitted, I do not know. That's why I asked. I am curious.
Much appreciated
Good
Then you're going to have a pretty limited audience in this forum, most likely, but if those are your wishes, I'll cease to ask further questions. Others may not.
Such is the nature of the regulatory / compliance world.
Thanks for your time.
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