Hi Kevin,
After you posted about Dirac, I went ahead and downloaded it to give it a try. I have been using DRC for a long time. There was a thread in the Full Range forum about it, with nice scripts to run the processing. Wesayso's tower thread also has some good info on it. But I've always wanted to try Dirac.
In general, I found that Dirac overcorrects relative to the DRC correction I use. I did the 13 measurement set around the listening area and while the correction is very nice, it results in a dry sound. On some recordings, it sticks to the speakers too much. I would imagine that such a correction would work really well if you had surround speakers to add reflections from the sides.
Using DRC, you can zoom in on the speaker's response and leave the room out. I find this to be the right approach (with two speakers), except of course, in the modal region, where the room response is the true response. But above that, we want to correct the speakers response as much as possible while taking the room out. Then, you can use the room and create lateral and contra-lateral reflections to add spaciousness. With the 2380 horn, this works really well.
The really cool thing about the Dirac application is it is so easy to use. From measuring to processing to using the results, it is a really fast and easy process. I played with the target curve too and it is very effective. It worked right from the start, and it was very easy to use with my existing JRiver setup. No new hardware needed. They've done a really good job with that.
After you posted about Dirac, I went ahead and downloaded it to give it a try. I have been using DRC for a long time. There was a thread in the Full Range forum about it, with nice scripts to run the processing. Wesayso's tower thread also has some good info on it. But I've always wanted to try Dirac.
In general, I found that Dirac overcorrects relative to the DRC correction I use. I did the 13 measurement set around the listening area and while the correction is very nice, it results in a dry sound. On some recordings, it sticks to the speakers too much. I would imagine that such a correction would work really well if you had surround speakers to add reflections from the sides.
Using DRC, you can zoom in on the speaker's response and leave the room out. I find this to be the right approach (with two speakers), except of course, in the modal region, where the room response is the true response. But above that, we want to correct the speakers response as much as possible while taking the room out. Then, you can use the room and create lateral and contra-lateral reflections to add spaciousness. With the 2380 horn, this works really well.
The really cool thing about the Dirac application is it is so easy to use. From measuring to processing to using the results, it is a really fast and easy process. I played with the target curve too and it is very effective. It worked right from the start, and it was very easy to use with my existing JRiver setup. No new hardware needed. They've done a really good job with that.
The key to Dirac is not to use the target curve verbatim particularly with CD horns, (you can modify to your heart's content and save each iteration of target as well as individual projects - I do both) the second thing I have found is that it is important to not measure too closely to the listening position, except for the very first mic location which should be quite precise. The system inherently over corrects to some extent IMVLE, it's not as intuitive as it all appears at first glance.
When it sounds better unequalized you know you have screwed something up.. 😛
The SHD is a Dirac only device so I don't have an option to use something else, that said it is quite possible to get excellent results with Dirac once you climb the learning curve a bit.
Getting ready for the arrival of Henri here, lots of NWS alerts tonight. Might be knocked offline Sunday. I am 17ft above MSL and there is a tidal surge warning for my particular part of Boston Harbor, hope this is not the first time it gets this high.
When it sounds better unequalized you know you have screwed something up.. 😛
The SHD is a Dirac only device so I don't have an option to use something else, that said it is quite possible to get excellent results with Dirac once you climb the learning curve a bit.
Getting ready for the arrival of Henri here, lots of NWS alerts tonight. Might be knocked offline Sunday. I am 17ft above MSL and there is a tidal surge warning for my particular part of Boston Harbor, hope this is not the first time it gets this high.
I'm going to hold off for a bit before resuming the search for a better set of horns.
A friend has persuaded me to try a pair of Altec based 2 x 3 multi cells that he wants to build if he can find sufficient time to do so, we will see if this is the solution or I am still hankering after the A-290 or TH-4001.
I am really puzzled by the Strauss set up which apparently cross the 2380A well below 500Hz. These horns are only 9 inches deep and I would doubt they load the driver properly below 800Hz. I really did not like the results at 500Hz, no signs of audible distress from the 950 Neos, but the imaging kind of went to hell and I suppose that might be reflection of loss of directivity control in both horizontal and vertical planes. I'm currently crossing at 600Hz which I would somewhat surprisingly describe as an almost night and day difference.
A friend has persuaded me to try a pair of Altec based 2 x 3 multi cells that he wants to build if he can find sufficient time to do so, we will see if this is the solution or I am still hankering after the A-290 or TH-4001.
I am really puzzled by the Strauss set up which apparently cross the 2380A well below 500Hz. These horns are only 9 inches deep and I would doubt they load the driver properly below 800Hz. I really did not like the results at 500Hz, no signs of audible distress from the 950 Neos, but the imaging kind of went to hell and I suppose that might be reflection of loss of directivity control in both horizontal and vertical planes. I'm currently crossing at 600Hz which I would somewhat surprisingly describe as an almost night and day difference.
I hope you get to try the 2445 or 2446 drivers with the 2380 horn. I tried the uber-fancy BMS 4590 coaxial driver because I knew the 2445 is nothing but a series of resonances above 10 kHz. Even with a very similar response curve, the BMS 4590 sounded just plain awful. Nothing wrong with the tonal balance, it just doesn't sound like real musicians. I swapped back the 2445 and suddenly, it is wonderful again.
I did play around with Dirac a little. Tried a couple of sets of measurements and had to tweak the target curve. But the feeling of overcorrection remained. My two week trial expires this weekend... I would buy it just to keep horsing around, but it is a little steep.
Edit: yes, I'm puzzled by the use below 500 Hz. Which speaker is this? You have it right with the use above 600 Hz.
I did play around with Dirac a little. Tried a couple of sets of measurements and had to tweak the target curve. But the feeling of overcorrection remained. My two week trial expires this weekend... I would buy it just to keep horsing around, but it is a little steep.
Edit: yes, I'm puzzled by the use below 500 Hz. Which speaker is this? You have it right with the use above 600 Hz.
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Funny about the BMS. I have the 4590 (I think) running on those old Altec 803 horns you heard at my house years ago. Putting a 2" driver on a 1.4" horn is just so wrong, but that's what I've got - via an Eminence adapter. The top end FR is murdered by the mismatch and needs a lot of EQ.
That said, they sound damn good. The do sound like real musicians, at about 1.6X scale. 🙂 Space and placement are excellent and the musical lines are very easy to follow and understand. They make me happy. Of course they are playing in a 2200 seat amphitheater on the side of a mountain with wonderful acoustics, but other speakers have not sounded so good in this space. Perhaps it the elusive horn to driver match?
That said, they sound damn good. The do sound like real musicians, at about 1.6X scale. 🙂 Space and placement are excellent and the musical lines are very easy to follow and understand. They make me happy. Of course they are playing in a 2200 seat amphitheater on the side of a mountain with wonderful acoustics, but other speakers have not sounded so good in this space. Perhaps it the elusive horn to driver match?
Here's another horn option from Yamamoto: Wood Horn F280A / Yamamoto Sound Craft
The owner doesn't speak English and the website is poorly translated, but with some effort you can get the key info. Looks nicely executed, like every Yamamoto piece apparently - from owners's feedback. There's a distributor in Canada who can likely answer questions and tell more about the horn.
Recommended xo at 400Hz (280Hz cutoff), Macthing units: such as TAD4001, JBL2441 & 2445, 806mm W x 330H x 513D a bit bigger than you wanted. Looks pretty though 🙂
The owner doesn't speak English and the website is poorly translated, but with some effort you can get the key info. Looks nicely executed, like every Yamamoto piece apparently - from owners's feedback. There's a distributor in Canada who can likely answer questions and tell more about the horn.
Recommended xo at 400Hz (280Hz cutoff), Macthing units: such as TAD4001, JBL2441 & 2445, 806mm W x 330H x 513D a bit bigger than you wanted. Looks pretty though 🙂
Not a wooden horn but don't forget Martin Seddon's Le Cleach profile horns
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horn Loudspeakers
There was a Lynn Olson thread a while back about his journey with them.
I have the 340 Azurahorn with 1 inch throat to mate with my Khorn bass.
It was chosen because. amongst other things, of it full roll back at the mouth.
Anyway...Martin is a great source of horn knowledge and worth chatting to
tim
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horn Loudspeakers
There was a Lynn Olson thread a while back about his journey with them.
I have the 340 Azurahorn with 1 inch throat to mate with my Khorn bass.
It was chosen because. amongst other things, of it full roll back at the mouth.
Anyway...Martin is a great source of horn knowledge and worth chatting to
tim
I don't own or know how to use a 3D printer.. LOL
When the time comes I will buy a set of horns from one of the more reasonably priced suppliers most likely in the EU.
When the time comes I will buy a set of horns from one of the more reasonably priced suppliers most likely in the EU.
While a little reluctant to throw in an OT comment , looking at the room photo I just can't help wondering if a conical horn wouldn't be worth considering.
That woopty doo at 16khz is consistent I see....and the the low extension gets in trouble at distance
350hz elliptical tractrix at 36"
The magic of the Th-4001 must be in the horizontal dispersion and above 600hz
Attachments
Just going off what I think I know...You can start with the tapered line. Ok it might not be tapered but its a very low T for sure, before the slot.
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I had Edgar Horns here for a while, but didn't really like them, but - this was long before I had DSP for EQ, and I suspect that the problems were mostly in the frequency response domain, and they seemed rather "beamy" in this smallish room. I think they would work better in a bigger room. I don't have access to any conical horns now and I want to retain the Fostex T825 tweeters which are bi-radials. All that said the 2380A actually sounds fine and I am driven as much by curiosity about the Yuichi A-290 in particular as anything.
Loading for the driver itself is mostly set by the compression ratio, not so much the horn.
I'll try to find some more information.
Edit: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Edit: Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
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