I was rereading the thread, and visually it is to me the most appealing option. I'm toying with various ideas for a new build to go beyond the open baffles I currently have. The Seas speaker has been on my radar for a while and I have one pair of the GRS 15" woofers already.
You can get the TC9 from Germany at same price, but without trouble with customs. Also, Hifitalo is selling TG9FD10-04 (well, that is 4 ohm) which is at least as good as TC9. They also have other Peerless fullrangers.
I can higly recommend miniDSP for cross-over & dipole/room corrections.
A bit different OB, inspired by Manzanita
Well, inexpensive this is not, but construction is easy.
First, I got hands on pair of Celestion TF1225CX coaxials, and was planning to build normal reflex box with them. But, living in small apartment with no woodworking tools available, had to change the design.
So, OB shall it be. Go to Bauhaus and buy 80x40cm (31" x 16") wood panels and a cheap jigsaw. Woofers, Eminence Delta 15LFA.
Xo is a hybrid: between woofer and coaxial done with minidsp 2x4HD, coaxial crossed to CD passively. The passive xo is a design by German magazine Klang&Ton, K+T Celeste was the speaker they designed.
Xo frequencies, woofer to coax: 250Hz, coax CD: 1900Hz.
Then the usual woodworking part... and after several multi-hour measurement & EQ adjustment sessions they start to play really well.
Frequency response is just flat, even within +/- 2.5dB 30Hz-18kHz. But that result is more depended of the placement of microphone and loudspeaker in the room, and how much you filter the FR. With the DSP it is very easy to correct the dipole response, and also room response to some extent.
Well, inexpensive this is not, but construction is easy.
First, I got hands on pair of Celestion TF1225CX coaxials, and was planning to build normal reflex box with them. But, living in small apartment with no woodworking tools available, had to change the design.
So, OB shall it be. Go to Bauhaus and buy 80x40cm (31" x 16") wood panels and a cheap jigsaw. Woofers, Eminence Delta 15LFA.
Xo is a hybrid: between woofer and coaxial done with minidsp 2x4HD, coaxial crossed to CD passively. The passive xo is a design by German magazine Klang&Ton, K+T Celeste was the speaker they designed.
Xo frequencies, woofer to coax: 250Hz, coax CD: 1900Hz.
Then the usual woodworking part... and after several multi-hour measurement & EQ adjustment sessions they start to play really well.
Frequency response is just flat, even within +/- 2.5dB 30Hz-18kHz. But that result is more depended of the placement of microphone and loudspeaker in the room, and how much you filter the FR. With the DSP it is very easy to correct the dipole response, and also room response to some extent.
Attachments
TG9FD10-04 VS. TC9FD18-08
Hello All
I did audition both of these drivers (plus 8 others) before settling on the TC9FD. There is quite a difference sonically between these two even though the specs are not all that different. The reason I went with the TC9FD was the rising, extended frequency response. All it needed was a simple inductor - resistor series trap to deliver usable high end extension to over 18K.
On the other hand, the TG9FD starts it's roll off in the 13K area with nothing much above 15K to speak of. To me, next to the TC9FD, it sounded dull and lacked any sort of air... sparkle.... And there is nothing you can do crossover wise to fix it.
Will either of these work, yes, but I feel that unless you add a super tweeter to the TG, the results will be a bit underwhelming.
Hello All
I did audition both of these drivers (plus 8 others) before settling on the TC9FD. There is quite a difference sonically between these two even though the specs are not all that different. The reason I went with the TC9FD was the rising, extended frequency response. All it needed was a simple inductor - resistor series trap to deliver usable high end extension to over 18K.
On the other hand, the TG9FD starts it's roll off in the 13K area with nothing much above 15K to speak of. To me, next to the TC9FD, it sounded dull and lacked any sort of air... sparkle.... And there is nothing you can do crossover wise to fix it.
Will either of these work, yes, but I feel that unless you add a super tweeter to the TG, the results will be a bit underwhelming.
The monacor unit is The closestes ican findto replicerer The GRS 15 unit. But i never Bears it
https://www.monacor.dk/produkter/15-3/pagetype/257/nc/1/vnr/103320/
TG9FD10-04 VS. TC9FD18-08
Okey good to know, thank you.
Do you suggest these more expensive drivers at all or should i just order the TC9FD from Germany? I don't mind the higher cost.
Peerless NE123W-08 4" or SCANSPEAK 10F/8414G10
Okey good to know, thank you.
Do you suggest these more expensive drivers at all or should i just order the TC9FD from Germany? I don't mind the higher cost.
Peerless NE123W-08 4" or SCANSPEAK 10F/8414G10
Risumies...The Tymphany - Peerless NE123W-08 (4") works quite well on the Manzanita or Manzanita Ultra. It is my favored driver on commercial versions. The crossover is not all that different, the main issues being the 4" is higher in efficiency and can play a bit lower. And of course the cost issue.
Although I did audition the Scan Speak 10F, I did not pursue it very far, being happy with the Peerless NE.
Both the Peerless and Scan Speak don't provide quite as much "air" compared to the TC9, but the overall mid range performance improvement(s) plus added dynamics I feel make up for that.
Although I did audition the Scan Speak 10F, I did not pursue it very far, being happy with the Peerless NE.
Both the Peerless and Scan Speak don't provide quite as much "air" compared to the TC9, but the overall mid range performance improvement(s) plus added dynamics I feel make up for that.
Citronix.... The Monacor SP-382-PA you reference is fairly close to the GRS 15 from an appearance and general performance perspective.
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The SP has about 25% lower Volume of Displacement (VD) compared to the GRS 15, and incorporates a corrugated cloth surround. The GRS uses a half roll treated foam surround.
I am suspect of the stated PA efficiency down where you would use it below 500 Hz. 94 db/W sensitivity is claimed. Calculated true efficiency, assuming the specs provided are indeed representative, is about 88 db/W. For reference, the GRS efficiency calculates out to 87 db/W.
The PA, assuming pricing in the 35-50 euro area is about as good as I have seen to date. It can work, but will not play as loud. Thanks for posting.
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The SP has about 25% lower Volume of Displacement (VD) compared to the GRS 15, and incorporates a corrugated cloth surround. The GRS uses a half roll treated foam surround.
I am suspect of the stated PA efficiency down where you would use it below 500 Hz. 94 db/W sensitivity is claimed. Calculated true efficiency, assuming the specs provided are indeed representative, is about 88 db/W. For reference, the GRS efficiency calculates out to 87 db/W.
The PA, assuming pricing in the 35-50 euro area is about as good as I have seen to date. It can work, but will not play as loud. Thanks for posting.
Sonidos The Ultra design is fine with symmetrical wings, top to bottom. Just keep the depth behind the baffle plate to no more than 4".
I did use tapered wings on the early Manzanita that was based around the Peerless 12" woofer. It was a way of minimizing the bass peak the system had around 50 Hz or so.
The GRS with it's lower FS and much higher QTS' creates it's peak in the high 30's (depending on wing depth). This is good as the speaker is starting its baffle size induced roll off. So the peak ends up providing some free bass extension.
John
I did use tapered wings on the early Manzanita that was based around the Peerless 12" woofer. It was a way of minimizing the bass peak the system had around 50 Hz or so.
The GRS with it's lower FS and much higher QTS' creates it's peak in the high 30's (depending on wing depth). This is good as the speaker is starting its baffle size induced roll off. So the peak ends up providing some free bass extension.
John
John, I really appreciate the quick feedback. Here's back at ya - over a year ago I was looking for a speaker project. Member udailey had been to LSAF and I mentioned that I was searching for a good diy project to retire my speakers I've had since the 80's. He said to check out this thread and he said that he can't think of a better speaker than yours that he heard at LSAF. It blew him away.
I've also been experimenting with the FaitalPro 3 and 4 inch drivers, and like them a lot. Have not yet integrated on into A Mazanita, but they should work well with a little more attenuation than the Vifa TC9FD
Just another option if the Peerless NE123W is difficult to get or expensive where you are.
Just another option if the Peerless NE123W is difficult to get or expensive where you are.
Sonidos..... Thanks for the positive LSAF feedback! I always bring something different every year, so don't know which exact speaker udailey may be referring to. Still great to get positive feed back.
Working on this years group of speakers for LSAF. Hope to have one fairly large 3 way OB and a couple of small but interesting 2 way boxes. Got to get hustling, the 1st weekend in May will be here soon!
Working on this years group of speakers for LSAF. Hope to have one fairly large 3 way OB and a couple of small but interesting 2 way boxes. Got to get hustling, the 1st weekend in May will be here soon!
The wing issue is an interesting one... and as I have said before, the nice thing about OB is that it is so easy to experiment. To be honest, early on, and I think I have said this before several times, I just experimented using heavy card board. S. Linkwitz, I think, did the same thing. Just play empirically and see what gives you what! Unlike Mr. Linkwitz, I do not have the mathematic abilities to translate what happens into formula. Genius, and well documented fellow. We must thank him for sharing his expertise when ever we can!
As for the 15 degree toe out, it may be helpful. Using the traditional woofer to mid OB crossover in the 150-300 Hz area, any rear wing depth under the 4-6 inch (from the rear of the baffle plate) limitation does not seem to exhibit prohibitive effects, as in audible cavity resonances.
I retained the 90 degree construction in the name of simplicity. Convenience for the DIY builder in a limited wood working situation, if you will. Wing manipulation can provide significant efficiency improvements, but at the cost of contruction complexity.
As for the 15 degree toe out, it may be helpful. Using the traditional woofer to mid OB crossover in the 150-300 Hz area, any rear wing depth under the 4-6 inch (from the rear of the baffle plate) limitation does not seem to exhibit prohibitive effects, as in audible cavity resonances.
I retained the 90 degree construction in the name of simplicity. Convenience for the DIY builder in a limited wood working situation, if you will. Wing manipulation can provide significant efficiency improvements, but at the cost of contruction complexity.
Thanks for the encouragement. When I was actively building speakers they were tapered columns with no parallel internal panels, usually Bailey style TL, or sealed. I do have some 15" drivers around, a pair of 12", several 10"...but no current TC9 type mid high drivers. Fortunately they are something even I can afford. And plenty of iron core chokes to gang up for the 20 mh low pass.