Just tried cranking things up a little..
Now bear in mind this measurement is with a naked horn just sitting on my desk in my study, not mounted, no damping on horn, able to vibrate all over the shop at 1m.
I am hopeful with it mounted in cabinet and with all the epoxy filler/mounting plates/woofers added, distortion will drop further (given your measurements when you added CLD to your trynergy.
Now bear in mind this measurement is with a naked horn just sitting on my desk in my study, not mounted, no damping on horn, able to vibrate all over the shop at 1m.
I am hopeful with it mounted in cabinet and with all the epoxy filler/mounting plates/woofers added, distortion will drop further (given your measurements when you added CLD to your trynergy.
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Excellent drawing and photo. I see what you mean now - the bezel wall angle needs to approximate an extension of throat tangent angle.
The 105dB case HD looks excellent actually. Very nice!
It must sound good - even when this loud with -50dB HD, it is clean and may actually not sound as loud as you think. Given this plot and if you think you can bring it down further with construction details that will be an amazing improvement as it is quite low already. I do not think there is a compression driver with -50dB HD over same range at 105dB.
Please tell us qualitatively what it sound like when playing music ?
Really looking forward to the addition of the woofers now.
Excellent progress again! Maybe at this rate there is some hope regarding woofer port cutouts this weekend? (One can always hope)
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Very good. I have some very high end speakers to compare it with, and although it is tricky with only one speaker and minimal bass extension, my first impressions are detail is up their with the best (and I am comparing to the likes of 12mu and volt vm752 mids......)
Really looking forward to the addition of the woofers now.
Excellent progress again! Maybe at this rate there is some hope regarding woofer port cutouts this weekend? (One can always hope)
LOL!
Sorry X, we are away this weekend so no progress for a few days now.
I kinda want to cogitate anyway on the woofer mounting. I want everything to be as perfect as I can make it. So I am going to do some more reading on the taps on synergies etc.
Have a good weekend all! 🙂
Things are shaping up quite nicely! Oh god, I hope adding the holes don't mess things up!
You're already covered down to 500 Hz...
You're already covered down to 500 Hz...
My experience on Trynergy is that port holes this far out to XO at 500Hz won't affect the WG hardly at all. I think this design is going to be a winner. 🙂
Faital Pro LTH142 as alternative to 18Sound XT1464
I'm really considering this waveguide as an alernative to XT1464. What do you guys think of the performance? Similar? The size is about a dead on match. Not sure if mounting the woofers will be easier or more difficult but there at least appears to be no ribs in place to get in the way. One big reason for me is that it is stock item at PE for $59.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1042-faitalpro-lth142-4-bolt-specifications.pdf
Here is response with HF146 comp driver:
The measured beamwidth looks pretty smooth:
Closeup of mounting flange area:
Let me know what you all think or should I just stick with XT1464 bia eBay? About same price really.
I'm really considering this waveguide as an alernative to XT1464. What do you guys think of the performance? Similar? The size is about a dead on match. Not sure if mounting the woofers will be easier or more difficult but there at least appears to be no ribs in place to get in the way. One big reason for me is that it is stock item at PE for $59.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-1042-faitalpro-lth142-4-bolt-specifications.pdf
Here is response with HF146 comp driver:
The measured beamwidth looks pretty smooth:
Closeup of mounting flange area:
Let me know what you all think or should I just stick with XT1464 bia eBay? About same price really.
xrk971,
Assuming Bushmeister is using the 18 Sound XR1464, the Faital Pro LH142 polars looks pretty similar, perhaps a tad smoother (though it also looks like more "smoothing" may have been applied), but the vertical pattern flip starts at a slightly higher frequency due to the smaller vertical dimension, dispersion has gone from around 50 degrees at 5kHz to 120 at 1kHz.
Although the "bookshelf" goal is understandable, going with a larger horn capable of vertical pattern control to 500 Hz (or at least 1000 Hz) would be preferable for reducing floor and ceiling reflections.
Back to the shop to try a new throat on the Maltese horns...
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Put extra magnets on do not mean we get stronger motor, then it is better to take one big neodyn magnet, the cone and voicecoil has to be strong also otherwise it wil be crushed.
Thanks sharing know how and experience and in shop remember limit at 800 watt : )
Synergizing a SEOS18?
You guys have got me thinking about synergizing the SEOS18s I've got sitting idle in my closet. Here is a picture of one with a 4FE35 sitting on top of it and a DNA360 CD on back. Its pretty easy to visualize 4 of the 4FE35's on the WG, two on top side by side and two on bottom firing into the rounded corners. I know from other work I've done that these mids will be good from about 1200 Hz down to 300 Hz in 2 PI space and 200 Hz in 1 PI space, hitting >=120 db SPL. Team them with separate 15" or 18" woofers on top and bottom for vertical pattern control and you've got, not a bookshelf synergy but a bookcase sized synergy🙂
You guys have got me thinking about synergizing the SEOS18s I've got sitting idle in my closet. Here is a picture of one with a 4FE35 sitting on top of it and a DNA360 CD on back. Its pretty easy to visualize 4 of the 4FE35's on the WG, two on top side by side and two on bottom firing into the rounded corners. I know from other work I've done that these mids will be good from about 1200 Hz down to 300 Hz in 2 PI space and 200 Hz in 1 PI space, hitting >=120 db SPL. Team them with separate 15" or 18" woofers on top and bottom for vertical pattern control and you've got, not a bookshelf synergy but a bookcase sized synergy🙂
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Weltersys likes to see the magic smoke emitted from a 30w driver pushed to 800w for fun. It's ony $10 a pop so not a big deal I guess.
I wonder if the whole smooth throat and damping pad trick that Bushmeister did with the SB65 and a 1.4in throat can work on a 3.5in driver and a 2in throat?
Interesting idea to use a larger SEOS 18. It only has a 1in throat so not sure of a 2.5in driver like SB65 can be used - but maybe a 1in or 1.5in full range cone driver might work.
The Faitals are pretty nice, I have been working on a similar thing with four 3FE32's and they can get down to maybe 200Hz with bass reflex action added to the mix, and only 350Hz or so without. The sensitivity is great though with around 97dB in series parallel for four units.
I wonder if this can be stuffed successfully into a 1in throat with nice roundovers etc.? Tymphany PLS 50F25AL01.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1180--tymphany-pls-50f25al01-spec-sheet.pdf
Or a Peerless NE65W-4?
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1046--tymphany-ne65w-04-spec-sheet.pdf
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RS225P-8 is another woofer possibility
The RS225P-8 (paper cone) has a nice high sensitivity and low distortion motor and alloy basket. Price is reasonable and the sims show that the thermal limit will put out about 112dB (at 24v) with an f3 of 100Hz. This is very workable and may be an alternative over the SB23NSRXS45's which cost substantially more here in the US. Sensitivity is about 94dB at 2.83v.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-367--rs225p-8-spec-sheet.pdf
Thermal limited SPL (cone displacement is only 4.5mm of 7mm xmax):
Sensitivity at 2.83v:
The RS225P-8 (paper cone) has a nice high sensitivity and low distortion motor and alloy basket. Price is reasonable and the sims show that the thermal limit will put out about 112dB (at 24v) with an f3 of 100Hz. This is very workable and may be an alternative over the SB23NSRXS45's which cost substantially more here in the US. Sensitivity is about 94dB at 2.83v.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-367--rs225p-8-spec-sheet.pdf
Thermal limited SPL (cone displacement is only 4.5mm of 7mm xmax):
Sensitivity at 2.83v:
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Can I ask what kind of HD plots you get with your compression drivers in your WG? Say at 95dB or 105dB and 1m? The full range drivers are achieving -50dB at 105dB. I have compression drivers in horns too and they just do not sound this clean, ever.
The low HD and the ability to XO at circa 500Hz relieves the need to place the band pass injection ports so close to the throat, thereby reducing the impact of the holes on the polars of the WG for HF's.
If you like the sound of compression drivers and horns and it seems you were already making a synergy with that and four cone drivers, that is fine too - as it is more of a standard unity/synergy.
The magic here is the use of a full range driver for the mid/tweet. And what Bushmeister has managed to accomplish with elbow grease and damping pads is nothing short of amazing.
Think about what it means to be able to use a $32 cone driver with 2.5mm of xmax and fs of 120Hz to push 400Hz to 20kHz in a horn, and do it with low distortion and controlled directivity with circa 94dB sensitivity. For typical home use or hifi use, the upper limit of 110dB to 116dB is sufficient.
I am really glad that this project appears to be on track for a great build with excellent performance. Whether or not we can call it a "bookshelf" size remains to be seen but it sure if more compact that a traditional synergy.
My HD results aren't any different than any one elses. What you are doing here with a full range driver is indeed impressive; ....makes me wonder what the downside is.
I think it can't help but beam in the HF and that makes it a non-starter for me in the room I'm designing for. I need a sweet spot that is as nearly as wide as my couch and no spot on that couch is on axis.
I'd be willing to try a 2" driver, perhaps the Aura NSW2, on a SEOS12 for my office. It might just do the trick there nearfield and aimed dead on where beaming and low sensitivity won't be an issue. One should be able to make a 2" to 1" transition with a 90 degree Vbit cutting a hole through 1/2" material. Now that I think of it, I'd much rather practice on the inexpensive SEOS12s before cutting into the 18's.
I think it can't help but beam in the HF and that makes it a non-starter for me in the room I'm designing for. I need a sweet spot that is as nearly as wide as my couch and no spot on that couch is on axis.
I'd be willing to try a 2" driver, perhaps the Aura NSW2, on a SEOS12 for my office. It might just do the trick there nearfield and aimed dead on where beaming and low sensitivity won't be an issue. One should be able to make a 2" to 1" transition with a 90 degree Vbit cutting a hole through 1/2" material. Now that I think of it, I'd much rather practice on the inexpensive SEOS12s before cutting into the 18's.
This is before Bushmeister fixed the cancellation dip, the polars appear to track the advertised performance of the XT1464 waveguide:
I don't think the cone driver makes it "beam" any more than the compression driver as the directivity is really a function of the WG profile.
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1464.PDF
Here are the extracted polar plots and directivity map from the pdf above:
I don't think the cone driver makes it "beam" any more than the compression driver as the directivity is really a function of the WG profile.
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1464.PDF
Here are the extracted polar plots and directivity map from the pdf above:
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The Fountek FR58EX is a driver that I have worked with on several projects. It sounds really good and has no ringing despite being an aluminum cone. It may have just the right low profile bezel that could adapt the throat of one of these WG's with an adpater or epoxy putty. An adapter could be 3d printed easily. The 15w thermal max is a concern though. I like the Qts, 2.9mm of xmax, and fact it is a stiff aluminum cone.
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/296-725-fountek-fr58ex-specifications.PDF
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/296-725-fountek-fr58ex-specifications.PDF