If I were stuck with a 12" driver for midbass, I'd go with the B&C 12MH32. This is a really good large midbass driver for many uses and it's cheap at just over $200. I do have these here and may just try them for giggles. Their midband distortion levels are very low.
Other great 12s are the Eminence KL3012HO and KL3012LF. Very lively and musical sounding. Their KL3012CX shares the same neo motor as the KL3012LF is one of the best 12" coax drivers available.
I'm unfortunately not very familiar with many pro sound 10s. They may be the more appropriate size for my needs here, as a 10 wouldn't have to work as hard as an 8 in the lower mids. JBL has been the most promising in this size category, just not that cheap or available.
Other great 12s are the Eminence KL3012HO and KL3012LF. Very lively and musical sounding. Their KL3012CX shares the same neo motor as the KL3012LF is one of the best 12" coax drivers available.
I'm unfortunately not very familiar with many pro sound 10s. They may be the more appropriate size for my needs here, as a 10 wouldn't have to work as hard as an 8 in the lower mids. JBL has been the most promising in this size category, just not that cheap or available.
Those are some impressive distortion numbers. I just wished they weren't so expensive or had those ugly surrounds. Likely the best hifi cone drivers available in terms of distortion and linearity. Unfortunately not sensitive enough either for my needs.
B&C have about 4 dealers in America:
https://bcspeakers.com/en/distributors
They even have a division in USA. I’m sure someone can get the 4 ohm version for you.
https://bcspeakers.com/en/distributors
They even have a division in USA. I’m sure someone can get the 4 ohm version for you.
As you write constructing a midrange horn is some work - but you don't have to cause this one exists: https://www.limmerhorns.de/042/
;-)
I know the smaller one and have the compression driver DE360 in my home cinema. These sound smooth and resonance free and can do loud.
You can also use these 2"/1" Coax drivers - also resonance free and smooth sound. B&C has a very big horn for their driver, can be crossed pretty low.
8" Midrange horn: https://www.limmerhorns.de/870/
These combinations are for sure significant better as the JBL speaker you heared! Esp. at high frequencies.
If you want direct radiating I would do a .5 System. Let one of the 8 or 10" run to the crossover frequency and use the 2nd one to double membrane area at lower frequencies. Gives you more SPL where you need it and no problem with vertical radiation.
And B74A - costs €350,-. That's not that expensive for what it can deliver and when crossed at 500-550Hz it should also be louder as the ATC 3".
Up to 550Hz you easily can use 1-2 10" with full piston movement. Maybe even a good 12".
I would not do experiements in that important frequency range. Save the time and costs and buy something you know will work.
;-)
I know the smaller one and have the compression driver DE360 in my home cinema. These sound smooth and resonance free and can do loud.
You can also use these 2"/1" Coax drivers - also resonance free and smooth sound. B&C has a very big horn for their driver, can be crossed pretty low.
8" Midrange horn: https://www.limmerhorns.de/870/
These combinations are for sure significant better as the JBL speaker you heared! Esp. at high frequencies.
If you want direct radiating I would do a .5 System. Let one of the 8 or 10" run to the crossover frequency and use the 2nd one to double membrane area at lower frequencies. Gives you more SPL where you need it and no problem with vertical radiation.
And B74A - costs €350,-. That's not that expensive for what it can deliver and when crossed at 500-550Hz it should also be louder as the ATC 3".
Up to 550Hz you easily can use 1-2 10" with full piston movement. Maybe even a good 12".
I would not do experiements in that important frequency range. Save the time and costs and buy something you know will work.
I had also suggested the Limmer 042 here before. But the thread creator did not go into the waveguide. I guess, too wide?
Many greetings,
Michael
Don't compare an Alpha 6MR or whatever JBL is useing here with the high tech drivers fitting the Limmer System!
I couldn't compare myself but people I trust told me that the sound difference between a Limmer 042 and the BMS 2"/1" coax is pretty small. And I know these BMS drivers well - midrange is done from a ring radiator with super leightweight membrane and open end dynamics. These are clean.
I couldn't compare myself but people I trust told me that the sound difference between a Limmer 042 and the BMS 2"/1" coax is pretty small. And I know these BMS drivers well - midrange is done from a ring radiator with super leightweight membrane and open end dynamics. These are clean.
An Alpha 6MR is a low grade driver in my book. I dont like these sealed back mids, mainly due to all the chaos that gets trapped and recycled inside that small, underdampened back chamber. The bolt pattern happens to be the same as most eminence 6s, so I could swap in a Beta 6. That is however also a fairly mediocre driver.
I would use a 8PE21 if I were to go with a midbass horn. Its the best 8" pro driver for the cost. The other ones are the 8NDL51 and 8PS21. Both have very low distortion for the sub- $150 price.
The JBL 2261H looks like a winner for this project. The differential driver has much lower distortion than many other like drivers and JBL uses alot of stiffening to keep the cone pistonic where it needs to be. I would add Aquaplas to the cone for further dampening.
I would use a 8PE21 if I were to go with a midbass horn. Its the best 8" pro driver for the cost. The other ones are the 8NDL51 and 8PS21. Both have very low distortion for the sub- $150 price.
The JBL 2261H looks like a winner for this project. The differential driver has much lower distortion than many other like drivers and JBL uses alot of stiffening to keep the cone pistonic where it needs to be. I would add Aquaplas to the cone for further dampening.
PHL drivers are in the same pricerange (at least in Europe) and have significant lower THD, esp. at lower levels. Would be a better choice for monitoring and fine details. I measured a LOT of 8" drivers and PHL and Kartesian are the ones I went with.
For the price of the JBL 2261H you could buy a M74A and cross at 450Hz ... what would fit perfectly to the T34 you want to use. You can then build a 3way and save costs. A expensive driver is not always a expensive solution ;-)
For the price of the JBL 2261H you could buy a M74A and cross at 450Hz ... what would fit perfectly to the T34 you want to use. You can then build a 3way and save costs. A expensive driver is not always a expensive solution ;-)
I want to cross lower than 450hz and use a dedicated midbass. This frees up the LF driver to move lots of air without extra IMD in the lower mids at higher output levels. Crossing a 12" woofer that high requires very careful enclosure construction and dampening, so the mids don't spill out of the ports or excite resonances in them. The other issue is the abrupt change in radiating pattern from a large cone to much smaller diameter midrange. I appreciate your input and do think the M74A is a nice driver.
PHL Datasheets ... it's a pain. They really don't care about hobby users but it's fairly easy to get samples from them when you are a (serious) company.
The @1m frequency response of them is very strange in all of the chassis (notches at 400 and 800Hz) and the @25cm is missing. THD seems pretty good but not the best they can do. But madisound has an incredible price for them. Maybe use 2 in a .5 configuration.
I tested PHL 2460 and 2710. 2460 has very low THD values, the lowest I measured with these 8" drivers. 2710 has less sensitivity and a little higher THD but can go loud at low frequencies, lot's of Xmax for such a driver.
After a quick search - 2513NdS would be the driver you need. Not sure how to source that, maybe ask tlhp.
The @1m frequency response of them is very strange in all of the chassis (notches at 400 and 800Hz) and the @25cm is missing. THD seems pretty good but not the best they can do. But madisound has an incredible price for them. Maybe use 2 in a .5 configuration.
I tested PHL 2460 and 2710. 2460 has very low THD values, the lowest I measured with these 8" drivers. 2710 has less sensitivity and a little higher THD but can go loud at low frequencies, lot's of Xmax for such a driver.
After a quick search - 2513NdS would be the driver you need. Not sure how to source that, maybe ask tlhp.
Known to have a good midbass but just 90/2.83 : https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/u...parleur-audax-hm210c0-8-ohm-210-x-210-mm.html
PHL datasheets got a huge improvement in 21 or 22, including klippel measurements, but yes many of the transducer datasheets are miissing the new measurements still😒
And yes the old and new datashees has some wonky stuff going on in the 400-8/900 range.
That does not appear elsewhere ususally.
Yup the 2460 is the nicest one of the bunch of the older generation of drivers, as i mentioned in the first page.
Klang & Ton Germany, is the place to look for PHL measurements as they have done a bunch of them, like the 2460 i linked below.
They do have a few transducers that has some rather bad resonances in they're bandwidth, so confirm measurements before you buy.
As for the 2513NDS i added it below from they're web.
@profiguy
The best PHL sources in Europe, that most likely can get you what you need from there is:
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/
https://lsv-achenbach.de/
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I guess it is wasted to post this one.
But since you liked the 18S 10NMB420, if looking for a midrange this variation is a very interesting contraption, that few know exists.
Using a smaller 2" ISV-sandwich voice coil, higher quality cure linear paper cone, higher efficiency/ less xmax.
Borrowing technology from the 12nmb , using a copper sleeved gap for inductance control, and the single alu demodulation ring.
For the price of 120$ ish you are hard pressed to find anything with the same features.
I have not seen the measurements though, of this specific version.
They rarely become available for purchases in singles.
You can order them anytime, but in min. batches of 30? i believe for around 3000🙄
https://www.lean-business.co.uk/esh...-p-2227.html?zenid=kc0qtpr4caqoeb2i88vl0787d2
But since you liked the 18S 10NMB420, if looking for a midrange this variation is a very interesting contraption, that few know exists.
Using a smaller 2" ISV-sandwich voice coil, higher quality cure linear paper cone, higher efficiency/ less xmax.
Borrowing technology from the 12nmb , using a copper sleeved gap for inductance control, and the single alu demodulation ring.
For the price of 120$ ish you are hard pressed to find anything with the same features.
I have not seen the measurements though, of this specific version.
They rarely become available for purchases in singles.
You can order them anytime, but in min. batches of 30? i believe for around 3000🙄
https://www.lean-business.co.uk/esh...-p-2227.html?zenid=kc0qtpr4caqoeb2i88vl0787d2
PHL is certainly a good choice in 10" size. The ancient range was known to be good there for cut-offs and cone size that are not usual in home environment, i.e. to perform till a part of the midrange but for PA loudspeaker. But they made 10" woofer too -if you look for a more usual 80/100 hz up to 500/1000 hz. Btw I would have a look at HIFIHOMEMADE projects like the Galactica with such PHLs.
If the 8" you are looking for is overlapping mid-bass and mid as talked in the original post to perform good till 900 hz and say the under 100 hz range is cover by a bigger driver, I would have a look though for the aerogel line according what you planned with your 110 db peaks -but the mess of the baffle step for that frequency range. Below 300 hz the Audax carbon winn but above the Aerogel are unique (but too thin sound in the said midbass range 80 to 300 hz circa. Now the Z10 can go a little lowish (not experienced that myself but read it) than its 600 hz advised cut off. Certainly performs good enough at 400 hz with stiffer slope filter, and its 99 circa db sensivity helps for the BS compensation. Certainly a wider overlapp from the bass driver could helps too if a wide 15" or a 12".
My very 2 cents as I surmise you know those drivers already. Are the JBLs drivers so expensive in USA ?
Sorry for the edits : Faital seems to have one or two good 10" for what you're looking for, but certainly too much expensive VS rest of good production in USA : JBL and more easily avaliable drivers: No good PRVs in your part of the world ?
If the 8" you are looking for is overlapping mid-bass and mid as talked in the original post to perform good till 900 hz and say the under 100 hz range is cover by a bigger driver, I would have a look though for the aerogel line according what you planned with your 110 db peaks -but the mess of the baffle step for that frequency range. Below 300 hz the Audax carbon winn but above the Aerogel are unique (but too thin sound in the said midbass range 80 to 300 hz circa. Now the Z10 can go a little lowish (not experienced that myself but read it) than its 600 hz advised cut off. Certainly performs good enough at 400 hz with stiffer slope filter, and its 99 circa db sensivity helps for the BS compensation. Certainly a wider overlapp from the bass driver could helps too if a wide 15" or a 12".
My very 2 cents as I surmise you know those drivers already. Are the JBLs drivers so expensive in USA ?
Sorry for the edits : Faital seems to have one or two good 10" for what you're looking for, but certainly too much expensive VS rest of good production in USA : JBL and more easily avaliable drivers: No good PRVs in your part of the world ?
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I use FANE SOVEREIG 8-225 is a 8", 97 db/w/m as a mid woofer from 200-2000Hz in a closed cabin of 15 liters with very good results
https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-8-225
https://www.fane-international.com/view-product/SOVEREIGN-8-225
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Which high tech drivers proposed in the Limmer 042 "system" is so superior to JBL's options?
Looking away from the Compressionn drivers, i do not really see a benefi
First off the 195H or 196H, is not the pinnacle in transducer design indeed.
It was the original driver for the PRX835, now the 2107H is used.
There is also the 2106H. And the 165H which is close to the Audax PR17's.
The "highest tech" driver suggested for the Limmer 042 is the Beyma 6MCF which might do well, im not familiar with it but along with PHL 1660/70-SQ it is one of the more interesting closed back drivers around.
The 18s 6ND410, while mfg. datasheets looks good, it is a problematic driver due to several issues, apparent in measurements like:
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...ound-6nd410-8-mid-range-6-8-ohm-480-wmax.html
The Ciare 6MR is decent very light weight untreated papaer cone, but good behaviour 200-2k, needs a notch above depending on use.
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...ciare-pndi6-38mr-mid-range-6-8-ohm-300-w.html
And the proposed PHL 1050/60's again have linearity/response issues from resonances already at 1k.
JBL has spent a lot of money and R&D into they're CMCD horn drivers, using phase plugs and 4" exits.
The 2169H as mentioned is a really nice driver, can be bought with phaseplug and assembly, at reasonable prices used.
There is also the open backed "brother" the 2168H differential driver one, but i am not familiar with it.
Then there is the original 2250H/PL which has some serious engineering to it, and very well suited to horn loading with the high upper corner frequency, it is also the only "closed back" driver i am aware of that used to come with the removeable back enclose".
The 2169H/CMCD 81 is incredibly well performing in it's intended range really, As you have mentioned distortion, they do quite well in that regard, remember when reading JBL distortion sheets, to read the fine print (+20db usually) and the power level it is done at which is rarely ever 1w.
There is also several options for waveguides, and dispersion patterns.
Except for JBL's horns, there is the option for a wider dispersion setup with the Seos 24-4 from Poland., designed for the 2169H.
http://horns-diy.pl/horns/seos/seos-24-4/
The 165H is what was used in the CMCD 61H using a 6,5" with a more traditional phaseplug, and using an external enclosure around the transducer.
There is also the mentioned PRX series Wg's and the single and double ones from the cinema series 90x50, the 3730 one being a natural partner for those that love the 2384/2374 horns.
The AM range also has a few versions.
While the M74's are nice drivers, they are a more natural partner for the T25's in general imo.
Crossing them at 450 hz, they will sistort badly, before the T34 will run out of SPL🙄
You will need a mtm to be able to keep up, or cross them high 700+, and then it's ideal range will be very limited.
Might i ask your take on the PRX Waveguide itself?
That one and the 30" wide Larger Cinema WG from the 3730s etc. are interesting as they will fit other drivers.
I assume it was used with either the 195H or 196 H, from your driver description.
I also assume you have had experience with one of the PT's 95 or 64 with the 2169H's before, or similar to compare.
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In Germany you can get this one for 31 euro
http://www.hth-lautsprecher.de/fadt8015.gif
A and D Audio T8015
+- 5.5mm cone travel
All data measured by Mr Herget not by the company
http://www.hth-lautsprecher.de/fadt8015.gif
A and D Audio T8015
+- 5.5mm cone travel
All data measured by Mr Herget not by the company
