My bad about the delay in all this. I have been also mixing my bands new music and that has been sucking up a lot of time.
But, here is the "progress" I have made. Well, more like continuing to shoot in the dark.
So, I got another measurement mic from my church, which unfortunately is the same exact mic. But I still got it to see if there was any difference. And, yes there was. Theirs is actually worse. Attachment below.
That same area where there is a problem, the churches mic is even worse just there. It is all very odd.
I am assuming that the DBX mic is not great at these frequencies and that the calibration file is not correct at all.
In that case, I do not know how to calibrate my own mic and from looking it up it seemed that most people just recommend to buy a new mic. Lots of people also recommend the Dayton mic that you linked, so pretty unfortunate that it is out of stock.
I also tried these tests on my Windows side with the same exact results. I re calibrated the sound card and SPL meter on both sides. Same stuff.
But, here is the "progress" I have made. Well, more like continuing to shoot in the dark.
So, I got another measurement mic from my church, which unfortunately is the same exact mic. But I still got it to see if there was any difference. And, yes there was. Theirs is actually worse. Attachment below.
That same area where there is a problem, the churches mic is even worse just there. It is all very odd.
I am assuming that the DBX mic is not great at these frequencies and that the calibration file is not correct at all.
In that case, I do not know how to calibrate my own mic and from looking it up it seemed that most people just recommend to buy a new mic. Lots of people also recommend the Dayton mic that you linked, so pretty unfortunate that it is out of stock.
I also tried these tests on my Windows side with the same exact results. I re calibrated the sound card and SPL meter on both sides. Same stuff.
Attachments
Seems to very well be the mic that is the problem.
I tried measuring with a SM57, picture attached below, just to see if I am getting the same effect as the other measurements. I know a '57 aint going to actually work for measurements, but still wanted to see if anything other than the DBX rta was the problem.
Sure enough, I do not have the same effect. So it very much seems like the mic is the problem and that for sure needs to be replaced.
It is a bummer how the Dayton mic is on backorder.
I tried measuring with a SM57, picture attached below, just to see if I am getting the same effect as the other measurements. I know a '57 aint going to actually work for measurements, but still wanted to see if anything other than the DBX rta was the problem.
Sure enough, I do not have the same effect. So it very much seems like the mic is the problem and that for sure needs to be replaced.
It is a bummer how the Dayton mic is on backorder.
Attachments
I would think a measurement mic wouldn't be a high demand item in that type of store. Therefore seeing them sitting on a little bit of stock wouldn't surprise me.
Bummer though that it looks like your mic is the problem. But if it is, it's actually kind of a good thing because that would mean the solution to the problem.
So I know you said you didn't want to buy a new mic right now, so I'm going to suggest that perhaps we try to work with what you are getting. Maybe it'll work and maybe it won't. But perhaps just quickly, take some farfield measurements of about a 1/2 dozen of the your drivers in their cabinets. Then I'll look at the results and compare them to the simmed results with Dayton's spec sheet measurements. If I can see a consistent difference between the 2 results, we can perhaps factor that into your measurements with the mic you already have, take the full slew of measurements required and then use your ears as the final arbiter as we work through the xo's.
Just a thought anyways.
Bummer though that it looks like your mic is the problem. But if it is, it's actually kind of a good thing because that would mean the solution to the problem.
So I know you said you didn't want to buy a new mic right now, so I'm going to suggest that perhaps we try to work with what you are getting. Maybe it'll work and maybe it won't. But perhaps just quickly, take some farfield measurements of about a 1/2 dozen of the your drivers in their cabinets. Then I'll look at the results and compare them to the simmed results with Dayton's spec sheet measurements. If I can see a consistent difference between the 2 results, we can perhaps factor that into your measurements with the mic you already have, take the full slew of measurements required and then use your ears as the final arbiter as we work through the xo's.
Just a thought anyways.
So I actually pulled the trigger and got the mic. With as much effort and investment I already put in this project. I dont want to skimp on this section of it all.
Also, though I am okay with using my ears to tune and tweak. I am not too confident and experienced in it with loudspeakers. So being able to actually measure accurately will give me better confidence in it.
Also, though I am okay with using my ears to tune and tweak. I am not too confident and experienced in it with loudspeakers. So being able to actually measure accurately will give me better confidence in it.
Excellent. That should make life a little easier. Hopefully.....
Just fyi, measurements are absolutely essential to getting the the best from your drivers, but a large part of designing the xo's is doing lots of listening, at least for me anyways. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the measurements say, if the speakers don't sound right to your own ears, then something is definitely wrong. But being able to measure, listen, tweak by ear (and with the help of a xo simulation program) and then measure again helps tremendously. So you are kind of combining both subjective and objective info to arrive at your final result.
Let me know when you're ready to start measuring again and I'll go over the list of everything you'll need.
Just fyi, measurements are absolutely essential to getting the the best from your drivers, but a large part of designing the xo's is doing lots of listening, at least for me anyways. In the end, it doesn't really matter what the measurements say, if the speakers don't sound right to your own ears, then something is definitely wrong. But being able to measure, listen, tweak by ear (and with the help of a xo simulation program) and then measure again helps tremendously. So you are kind of combining both subjective and objective info to arrive at your final result.
Let me know when you're ready to start measuring again and I'll go over the list of everything you'll need.
Yeah that is very true! I guess what I meant to say is that I am good with listening and being able to hear certain things that I do or do not like. Yet I would not be totally confident with just my ears. I don't quite have that tuned ear yet haha. Being able to see the measurements results helps me either define my reasoning or help me listen for something specific.
Like I said I haven't done it with loudspeaker yet, mostly just with mixing and looking at tracks with an FFT.
But yeah sounds great! Again, I appreciate this as always!
Like I said I haven't done it with loudspeaker yet, mostly just with mixing and looking at tracks with an FFT.
But yeah sounds great! Again, I appreciate this as always!
Just got an email that the mic was out of stock, so I got a refund.
Welp, it might be on to either waiting or doing what you suggested before.
Welp, it might be on to either waiting or doing what you suggested before.
Darn, I am sorry to hear that. I just looked at Solen here in Canada and they are out too. Seems USB mics are hard to come by right now.
Can't hurt to take a few more measurements while you're waiting and I'll see if maybe I can make some use of them.
Can't hurt to take a few more measurements while you're waiting and I'll see if maybe I can make some use of them.
Unfortunately I had to take apart the testing area in the basement for now since we have family coming over this weekend.
But, in the mean time. I will do more research on any other mics I can get. DO you have any suggestions?
But, in the mean time. I will do more research on any other mics I can get. DO you have any suggestions?
Im also looking around. But should I only look into usb mics and try to stay away from xlr mics?
Just to cut out the interface variable
Just to cut out the interface variable
An XLR mic & 2-channel interface let you loop the second channel for electrical timing reference. This makes it easier to capture phase accurately for XO work.
You can find threads about how to determine the timing with USB mics as well, but you're still dealing with 2 different sound cards. Strikes me as more variables to keep straight, not fewer.
You can find threads about how to determine the timing with USB mics as well, but you're still dealing with 2 different sound cards. Strikes me as more variables to keep straight, not fewer.
Actually, that USB mic was the only one I could find that was available. Even here in my neck of the woods, all of Solen's measurement mics are on back order. But considering the problems we've had identifying the source of the inaccuracies, yes I was thinking that removing the interface might help.
It is true however that that will remove a measuring procedure that accurately measures phase as well as the FR. But I wasn't taking you down that road to start off with anyways. Trying to keep things simple and all that. But more to the point, when you take NF and FF measurements and then either splice or blend them together, the process creates a new FR and since phase is a function of the FR, then you need to extract the new phase information from the new FR anyways.
It is true however that that will remove a measuring procedure that accurately measures phase as well as the FR. But I wasn't taking you down that road to start off with anyways. Trying to keep things simple and all that. But more to the point, when you take NF and FF measurements and then either splice or blend them together, the process creates a new FR and since phase is a function of the FR, then you need to extract the new phase information from the new FR anyways.
Yeah I was thinking about that since I have the loop back with the second channel of the interface. So seems like a USB mic might be a good option, yet the DBX is just not doing well at all.
What you think about this or this
The first is cheaper, which dont know if that necessarily the way to go for quality measurements. But it has a calibration software that makes a custom calibration file for you. So, seems pretty legit.
What you think about this or this
The first is cheaper, which dont know if that necessarily the way to go for quality measurements. But it has a calibration software that makes a custom calibration file for you. So, seems pretty legit.
Seems better to me to simplify your setup by taking the Focusrite out of the chain. So I would go with a USB mic. I would hate to see you buy 1 of the 2 mics above and then still end up with some measurement anomalies afterwards. I'm not saying that's going to happen, I just see the possibility still there.
This is true, but also remember when I sent that screen capture of me measuring with my SM57? It had no anomalies like the DBX in the high range. Which made me believe that it was purely the mic, right?
Also, I do need that loopback for timing reference, so I need the focusrite in there already. I have also been able to borrow the 3rd gen 2i2 from a friend of mine, so I can try that out as well.
But it says from the first mic that it makes it own calibration file. So I can literally get it to be as accurate as it can be. Also, it comes with a software of theirs that can measure the FR as well on its own. Idk about phase response, but I'm going to call Sweetwater about it. Also see if I can get a 14 day trial on it, like if it still is doing the same as before then I can return it.
Id like to go with the USB mic, but at the same time itll be a while until those are back.
Also, I do need that loopback for timing reference, so I need the focusrite in there already. I have also been able to borrow the 3rd gen 2i2 from a friend of mine, so I can try that out as well.
But it says from the first mic that it makes it own calibration file. So I can literally get it to be as accurate as it can be. Also, it comes with a software of theirs that can measure the FR as well on its own. Idk about phase response, but I'm going to call Sweetwater about it. Also see if I can get a 14 day trial on it, like if it still is doing the same as before then I can return it.
Id like to go with the USB mic, but at the same time itll be a while until those are back.
So that was in post #202 and although it didn't demonstrate the rising FR above 8kHz, it still had other problems so I am not quite convinced that a problem somewhere else can't be ruled out.
I'm not sure what you mean here. The measurement method I've suggested to you does not use a timing reference. Phase is derived after the NF and FF measurements after they have been blended. But if you can use a different interface with a XLR mic, well that could be helpful to getting more accurate measurements. So to be clear, with a USB mic, you won't need the focusrite to do the FR measurements but you will need it I think to do the impedance measurements.
I could be wrong here, but I think you may be misinterpreting what that description says. The mic looks to me like it is primarily intended to measure live sound systems after which you can calibrate/eq the system to suit the room it's in. I think that's what they mean by "calibrates your monitoring system" and not calibrating the mic. Instead the mic comes with 2 separate calibration files - one intended for the matching software program and one intended for other programs, like REW for eg. So it does appear that it will work with REW and something like the focusrite as long as the focusrite isn't also producing any inaccuracies, which I don't think can be completely ruled out yet. Could be the case but I'm not 100% sure at this point.
Not sure how much that helps you. I also thought that Madisound had that USB mic available? But if not, maybe 1 of those 2 mics you found at Sweetwater will be your best option moving forward.
Sorry for the extremely delayed response. A lot has been going on around here and the speaker have been put on hold for now since it also seems like I will wait until that Dayton Audio mic is back in stock.
That post from #202 had different problems because I the Shure SM57 does not have a flat response. Thats why it looked all over the place.
Im confused about the method you said you've suggested to me. Sorry if I did not read that right. I was understanding that with REW you need a electrical timing reference loop from the output into the computer, so like with the use of the Focusrite input for that. Idk where I can use just the mic to get the results. Maybe I can use the Dayton Audio software for measurements, but Ill look into that. Idk if the software comes with the mic.
Also yeah that mic that "makes its own calibration file" was a bust. The mic was a reasonable price, but you have to buy the software for it which is really expensive. But you are right, it is used more for tuning like your monitor speakers and other applications. But not what we need it for.
That post from #202 had different problems because I the Shure SM57 does not have a flat response. Thats why it looked all over the place.
Im confused about the method you said you've suggested to me. Sorry if I did not read that right. I was understanding that with REW you need a electrical timing reference loop from the output into the computer, so like with the use of the Focusrite input for that. Idk where I can use just the mic to get the results. Maybe I can use the Dayton Audio software for measurements, but Ill look into that. Idk if the software comes with the mic.
Also yeah that mic that "makes its own calibration file" was a bust. The mic was a reasonable price, but you have to buy the software for it which is really expensive. But you are right, it is used more for tuning like your monitor speakers and other applications. But not what we need it for.
Yeah waiting till the end of May for the mic will be tough. But I also found this mic, the Dayton Audio EMM-6 which is yeah a USB mic. But there are reviews saying it works great with REW. It also has a unique calibration file from Dayton for each mic.
Idk I'm still not convinced that the Focusrite is the issue tbh. I have found no where that the 2i2 has any internal EQ. Plus it is a very very popular interface for recording music and I've read thread where people use it for measurements as well just fine. It would shock me if they have any internal EQ. Yah know, I will actually email or try to call them. I'm too curious.
UPDATE:
I just called them and confirmed that the Scarlett 2i2 has no internal EQ or compression. It is optimized for a flat response. So, to me it feels like we can rule that out right?
There is the possibility that when I plugged in my computer to the bad power strip and I heard sparking while doing the impedance tests, that could have very well screwed up my 2i2. Since that even also blew my right side speakers on my Mac.
I know my Mac has no problems with the ports or anything because I borrowed one of my family members Mac, downloaded REW, and I had the exact same results.
In my mind, if I am able to get that EMM-6 and use the 2i2 gen3 that I am borrowing then that would be very ideal.
Thoughts?
Idk I'm still not convinced that the Focusrite is the issue tbh. I have found no where that the 2i2 has any internal EQ. Plus it is a very very popular interface for recording music and I've read thread where people use it for measurements as well just fine. It would shock me if they have any internal EQ. Yah know, I will actually email or try to call them. I'm too curious.
UPDATE:
I just called them and confirmed that the Scarlett 2i2 has no internal EQ or compression. It is optimized for a flat response. So, to me it feels like we can rule that out right?
There is the possibility that when I plugged in my computer to the bad power strip and I heard sparking while doing the impedance tests, that could have very well screwed up my 2i2. Since that even also blew my right side speakers on my Mac.
I know my Mac has no problems with the ports or anything because I borrowed one of my family members Mac, downloaded REW, and I had the exact same results.
In my mind, if I am able to get that EMM-6 and use the 2i2 gen3 that I am borrowing then that would be very ideal.
Thoughts?
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