Ooh, I just came up with a slightly different arrangement. One that allows a configuration where you can (1) set a long length for S1-S2 (see previous message for the benefit of doing that and stuffing it), and (2) setting very different lengths for S1-S2 and S4-S5 (allowing more ability to manipulate the response just above the passband to flatten it), and (3) the rest of the horn can be left as is.
See attached... 🙂
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Don't forget the KS's large frontal area, of which the mouth of the horn is but a small part. That's going to impact its response at higher frequencies as well, in ways that are not predicted by HornResp.
I think that the KS is likely an excellent design, based both on the creds of the designer and the feedback from those who built it. However, I also know that the closer I can sim my design with HornResp, the closer the HornResp sim's response will be to the response of my design, so I tend to stick to designs that can be sim'd very closely by Hornresp, 'specially when you consider that I really don't like spending a lot of time building boxes for testing purposes 🙂.
Wat if we make the design a bit deeper, 120cm or so. Maybe we can reduce width a bit this way. Also what if we turn around the First section, so going oposite direction. What if we close the front and exit to the top side. Large keystone exit
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Hi Art,
What modifications should be taken in this procedure if the crossovers are set to over or underlap each other?
Cheers,
Justin
Both speaker narrow bandpasd around crossover frequenty, take a kickdrum and listening that both align when put in delay, then setup your normal cross points for sub/top.
Hi Y'all,
All kinds of interesting suggestions. So many variables, so little time. 🙂
The large Keystone exit (Post #523) on the large box surface, or greater box depth are complete redesigns; also remember, Art arrived at the Keystone shape and size through a long series of tests, and so far nobody has reported any results of trying to rescale these dimensions (might well work, but...).
This box/driver combination likes the big mouth, so I'm going to keep that. Changing just S5 does not look like a positive change, but it will give a bump at the bottom of the passband while loosing in the middle. One change that improves the response through the upper passband is to shift the driver closer to the mouth. The big change comes from increasing L34 while using the Wizard to automatically decrease L45, it flattens things, and the filtered response improves nicely too. The resulting changes in L12 and L23 don't make much difference. So, I might give that a try. But, it takes quite a bit of time to move the whole horn path (which is required).
Another variable is 'how many boxes are being used at the same time', that again changes things a little. I think the above might be a good compromise.
Regards,
All kinds of interesting suggestions. So many variables, so little time. 🙂
The large Keystone exit (Post #523) on the large box surface, or greater box depth are complete redesigns; also remember, Art arrived at the Keystone shape and size through a long series of tests, and so far nobody has reported any results of trying to rescale these dimensions (might well work, but...).
This box/driver combination likes the big mouth, so I'm going to keep that. Changing just S5 does not look like a positive change, but it will give a bump at the bottom of the passband while loosing in the middle. One change that improves the response through the upper passband is to shift the driver closer to the mouth. The big change comes from increasing L34 while using the Wizard to automatically decrease L45, it flattens things, and the filtered response improves nicely too. The resulting changes in L12 and L23 don't make much difference. So, I might give that a try. But, it takes quite a bit of time to move the whole horn path (which is required).
Another variable is 'how many boxes are being used at the same time', that again changes things a little. I think the above might be a good compromise.
Regards,
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i agree, i was just thinking out loud. the last graph looks very promising. Bringing drivers more to outside also makes it easier for maintenance.
Hi Y'all,
From yesterday 01:30PM until today 07:15AM no electricity. And cold. Had to run the fireplace extra hard all night just to keep the inside from dropping below 55F, the outside got to ~12F. Now the sun is up, and it's still only 14F(-10C) outside, but the power is back on. Yeah! 🙂
Regards,
From yesterday 01:30PM until today 07:15AM no electricity. And cold. Had to run the fireplace extra hard all night just to keep the inside from dropping below 55F, the outside got to ~12F. Now the sun is up, and it's still only 14F(-10C) outside, but the power is back on. Yeah! 🙂
Regards,
Hi Y'all,
The improvements in Post #526 look too good to be true, so I went over the figures again, and sure enough the internal width I used in a spreadsheet to calculate the areas was wrong resulting in a bigger box. Sorry about that, but the direction of change seems to be correct, so back to the drawing board if I can stay awake.
Regards,
The improvements in Post #526 look too good to be true, so I went over the figures again, and sure enough the internal width I used in a spreadsheet to calculate the areas was wrong resulting in a bigger box. Sorry about that, but the direction of change seems to be correct, so back to the drawing board if I can stay awake.
Regards,
Glad you survived the cold!
I have no issues with the box being little bit deeper...
Go big or go home 😉
I have no issues with the box being little bit deeper...
Go big or go home 😉
Hi Y'all,
Here is the version w/ the reduced L45, and associated changes. This would be what I'd go w/ if I were to build this kind of double TH for the 18TBW100. Within the range of TRY_3 (Post #518) and this one the simulation seems to be quite stable.
There are still a lot of little things to be worked out, like the bracing, and possible suggestion for filling around the driver/throat, but this is pretty much it. I think it goes without sayin, that the suggested 3/4" plywood is a little on the light side, 1" Baltic birch would be better (and heavier...); maybe top and bottom from 1", and the rest from 3/4"?
Regards,
Here is the version w/ the reduced L45, and associated changes. This would be what I'd go w/ if I were to build this kind of double TH for the 18TBW100. Within the range of TRY_3 (Post #518) and this one the simulation seems to be quite stable.
There are still a lot of little things to be worked out, like the bracing, and possible suggestion for filling around the driver/throat, but this is pretty much it. I think it goes without sayin, that the suggested 3/4" plywood is a little on the light side, 1" Baltic birch would be better (and heavier...); maybe top and bottom from 1", and the rest from 3/4"?
Regards,
Attachments
Hi Y'all,
Here is the version w/ the reduced L45, and associated changes. This would be what I'd go w/ if I were to build this kind of double TH for the 18TBW100. Within the range of TRY_3 (Post #518) and this one the simulation seems to be quite stable.
There are still a lot of little things to be worked out, like the bracing, and possible suggestion for filling around the driver/throat, but this is pretty much it. I think it goes without sayin, that the suggested 3/4" plywood is a little on the light side, 1" Baltic birch would be better (and heavier...); maybe top and bottom from 1", and the rest from 3/4"?
Regards,
Nice Oliver! Love looking at new designs like this.
This cab would look really cool in a dance stack like funktion one.
The most brutal bass I've felt was a 8-stack cluster of funktion1 218 cabs (tho it was a total of 24 over the whole stage but I pretty much put up camp in front of that stack all festival 🙂
Would a similar clustered TH stack behave in a similar manner when clustered many together? The f1 cabs are rather poor sounding to my ears when in small stacks but this was absolutely beautiful. I've got the impression that many THs clustered gets quite a bump down low while this is the natural environment for the FLH stack.
Included the image from the festivalrig, when you got out in the middle-row of subs it was like there was no sub at all compared to infront of the stacks
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Its nothing at all like the F1 F218. It is a FLH design like all other short path horns, the added photo looks more like the F221 but i can be wrong. It is just one bend design, the same like turbosound TSW etc. Some have reversed drivers inside but the design is pretty standard. If you want to compare the TH218SC to others. the closest is something like the (yes them again) DSL TH221. Although I do not know the internals of that beast.
Thanks Oliver, I am going to sim a couple of other drivers in it to see how well it keeps up. I will post the sims here.
Thanks Oliver, I am going to sim a couple of other drivers in it to see how well it keeps up. I will post the sims here.
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I simmed a couple of more drivers. I will not show all but most of the below list are suitable drivers for this design. Both budget friendly or High end drivers.
18Sound 18LW2400
B&C18TBW100 (default driver)
B&C18SW100
B&C18SW115
BMS 18N850v2
Oberton 18XB1500
PD 1850
18Sound 18LW2400
B&C18TBW100 (default driver)
B&C18SW100
B&C18SW115
BMS 18N850v2
Oberton 18XB1500
PD 1850
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Hi Osse,
I'll attach a simulation and SPL graph for a cluster of 4 boxes (8x 18" woofer), this will give you an idea. I used the B&C 18SW115 for this simulation, and a nominal power of 2kW into each driver. The efficiency is quite nice. 🙂
Don't park yourself too close to monster speaker stacks of any kind, use ear plugs and muffs at concerts. Please! Some of the damage I have done to my hearing I could have prevented very easily, luckily it's not too bad, but so unnecessary.
Hi USRFobiwan,
I'm sure you are aware of this, but, others may not be: the general recommendations that Art (weltersys) has in his Keystone thread should apply to this box too. Basically, I like drivers w/ strong magnet structures, e.g.: the 18SW115 would be great in this. The simulation responds well to some filling in the throat, and around the driver (L12 and a bit of L23), this will need some experimentation, and can be omitted for PA only use.
Regards,
I'll attach a simulation and SPL graph for a cluster of 4 boxes (8x 18" woofer), this will give you an idea. I used the B&C 18SW115 for this simulation, and a nominal power of 2kW into each driver. The efficiency is quite nice. 🙂
Don't park yourself too close to monster speaker stacks of any kind, use ear plugs and muffs at concerts. Please! Some of the damage I have done to my hearing I could have prevented very easily, luckily it's not too bad, but so unnecessary.
Hi USRFobiwan,
I'm sure you are aware of this, but, others may not be: the general recommendations that Art (weltersys) has in his Keystone thread should apply to this box too. Basically, I like drivers w/ strong magnet structures, e.g.: the 18SW115 would be great in this. The simulation responds well to some filling in the throat, and around the driver (L12 and a bit of L23), this will need some experimentation, and can be omitted for PA only use.
Regards,
Attachments
Wow that efficiency numbers are very impressive! Not seen that high numbers ever before in a stack.
Will a total of 16k nominal result in a continuous 3k9?
Did not realise just how big this guy was, close to 1000 liters.. Nice!
Would not the driver orientation reduce vibrations effectively? It does in the kling & freitag b10, a 2x18 ported bandpass horn, you can put an empty beer can on it for the whole night without it vibrating down.
Osse, I let you know when I have build the prototype 😉
Yes the efficiency is staggering. If all of this is true then these boxes will last a long time if you let them work at 'acceptable' levels.
Oliver, I am aware but I needed to sim to for the sake of it.
Protecting ears is mandatory for me the last 15 years, I have 3 different tinnitus rings, 24/7/365. Funny thing is, they move sometimes from the left to the right side in my head or visa versa. My ear test are pretty normal for a 45 year old but i have less hearing in the speech area and not hear anything above 13Khz.
Yes the efficiency is staggering. If all of this is true then these boxes will last a long time if you let them work at 'acceptable' levels.
Oliver, I am aware but I needed to sim to for the sake of it.
Protecting ears is mandatory for me the last 15 years, I have 3 different tinnitus rings, 24/7/365. Funny thing is, they move sometimes from the left to the right side in my head or visa versa. My ear test are pretty normal for a 45 year old but i have less hearing in the speech area and not hear anything above 13Khz.
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Thanks for the concern regarding hearing, it was amazing to be able to stand at that stack for 8 straight hours without any ear fatigue but when Jeff mills went on he pushed another 10 dB it felt like and the earplugs went in.
29 years old and a few thousand hours infront of good and horrible sound systems I'm glad to say my hearing is rather good! No tinitus. I can hear 17k (at least last I tried) and probably a few db down in speech area. Now days I always bring molded earplugs and use most of the time.
Looking forward to hear your reports on the prototype! I wonder what the efficiency of the keystone is, I have two which I really enjoy.
29 years old and a few thousand hours infront of good and horrible sound systems I'm glad to say my hearing is rather good! No tinitus. I can hear 17k (at least last I tried) and probably a few db down in speech area. Now days I always bring molded earplugs and use most of the time.
Looking forward to hear your reports on the prototype! I wonder what the efficiency of the keystone is, I have two which I really enjoy.
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