Faital
I have had a love affair with the 5 inch Faital ever since I first spotted it.
I JUST KNEW it would be well suited to horn load, as it's too small a cone area to be used on a flat baffle and grip enough air for realistic lower mids.
Thanks for the tip on the 6PEV13 It looks good on paper, and evidently that isn't everything.
Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" Speakers - Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet. Faital Pro M5N8-80 80 watt 5" high efficiency of 99dB SPL for all midrange applications.
I have had a love affair with the 5 inch Faital ever since I first spotted it.
I JUST KNEW it would be well suited to horn load, as it's too small a cone area to be used on a flat baffle and grip enough air for realistic lower mids.
Thanks for the tip on the 6PEV13 It looks good on paper, and evidently that isn't everything.
Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" Speakers - Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet. Faital Pro M5N8-80 80 watt 5" high efficiency of 99dB SPL for all midrange applications.
I have the 6MDN44 and like it very much in a horn. From 200Hz to 3000hz sounds very nice. Good sensitivity.
Horn Driver Quest
When someone wants a horn loaded driver, this means that they are on a quest for high efficiency, low distortion, audio reproduction over no-more than about a decade of frequency band-width where the size of the horn will need to be comparable to the wavelength of the lowest frequency to be passed.
If an open frame driver is to be used, a phase plug will be required to get a decent compression ratio, which is key to obtaining the efficiency potential sought. The design rigor to do this right is well known, but well ignored by many as well.
Violate these concepts, take a trip down a path to sub-optimal performance that can be easily beat by a less expensive direct radiator with a much smaller enclosure footprint and related system cost.
If you know exactly what you want in an open frame driver to fill this mission, and your expectations and pocketbook match, then spec-out one of these to meet your requirements exactly.
Flex Units Loudspeaker Drivers
Regards,
WHG
When someone wants a horn loaded driver, this means that they are on a quest for high efficiency, low distortion, audio reproduction over no-more than about a decade of frequency band-width where the size of the horn will need to be comparable to the wavelength of the lowest frequency to be passed.
If an open frame driver is to be used, a phase plug will be required to get a decent compression ratio, which is key to obtaining the efficiency potential sought. The design rigor to do this right is well known, but well ignored by many as well.
Violate these concepts, take a trip down a path to sub-optimal performance that can be easily beat by a less expensive direct radiator with a much smaller enclosure footprint and related system cost.
If you know exactly what you want in an open frame driver to fill this mission, and your expectations and pocketbook match, then spec-out one of these to meet your requirements exactly.
Flex Units Loudspeaker Drivers
Regards,
WHG
Check.
- High efficiency to allow the use of 45 or 2A3 SET (for the midrange only).
- No-more than a decade: some where in the 350/500 to 2000/2500Hz range.
- Size of horn "comparable" to the wavelength of the lowest freq: depends on what comparable means. A 50cm wide horn would be ok, which equals the size of a 670Hz wavelength, or 72% of the WL at 500hz, or half the WL at 350Hz.
I don't know enough to spec one of those drivers. Won't be going down that route.
The options I'm considering are either a direct radiator, likely an 8", in a sealed box, or a horn-loaded cone.
From reading other threads I was under the impression you had demonstrated a horn-loaded cone midrange without a phase plug had lower distortion than a compression driver in a horn. Maybe I'm confused.
I guess the Faital M5N12-80 is open frame, hence your comment. And I welcome the heads up! Would placing that driver inside a sealed enclosure, and load it with a horn on the front solve the issue?
And if I didn't use a phase plug I would loose sensitivity, rather than raising distortion, right? So maybe I can't use a 2A3 there.
Could you point me somewhere where I can learn about phase plugs? I know zip about horns, but after doing some reading I'm thinking I could build something. Don't know about phase plugs, and would rather pick my battles.
Regards
I have the closed back chamber JBL 2169H (CMCD-82H) with the original JBL phase plug in a big Seos horn with 4" exit myself and it's the best midrange I have ever heard. Crossed over at 250Hz and 2200Hz.
I would not use a cone driver without closed rear chamber and phase plug in a horn. The FR would be very limited upwards, I would probably need to cross over closer to 1000Hz. There is not without reason JBL mounted both a back chamber and phase plug on the 165H driver in the CMCD-61H concept. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series/AM4200,95-WH.pdf
Thought I would like to try a 6.5" unit to extend the response to 3000Hz. The PHL Audio 1500Nd-SQ looks VERY interesting: PHL Audio: Products ?*6.5 inch in
I would not use a cone driver without closed rear chamber and phase plug in a horn. The FR would be very limited upwards, I would probably need to cross over closer to 1000Hz. There is not without reason JBL mounted both a back chamber and phase plug on the 165H driver in the CMCD-61H concept. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series/AM4200,95-WH.pdf
Thought I would like to try a 6.5" unit to extend the response to 3000Hz. The PHL Audio 1500Nd-SQ looks VERY interesting: PHL Audio: Products ?*6.5 inch in
Attachments
Last edited:
Notes & References
Given:
WL = Wave Length of Lowest Frequency to Be Passed (Say at one octave below the c/o frequency used)
And
noting that that the effective length of a horn extends out beyond the its physical length. (This extension can be approximated by using the reflex port length adjustment protocol.)
Then
Comparable Means:
Mouth Perimeter => WL
and
Effective Horn Length => WL/2
I have attached some articles that may be helpful.
Why not use David McBean's program to explore your options?
Hornresp
Regards,
WHG
Given:
WL = Wave Length of Lowest Frequency to Be Passed (Say at one octave below the c/o frequency used)
And
noting that that the effective length of a horn extends out beyond the its physical length. (This extension can be approximated by using the reflex port length adjustment protocol.)
Then
Comparable Means:
Mouth Perimeter => WL
and
Effective Horn Length => WL/2
I have attached some articles that may be helpful.
Why not use David McBean's program to explore your options?
Hornresp
Regards,
WHG
Last edited:
Thanks for the input.
Where did you buy the CMCD-82H?
The PHL driver you suggest does have a rear chamber, but doesn't have a phase plug. How do you envision implementing it, in light of your statement saying you wouldn't use a cone in a horn without a phase plug?
Would making a small sealed enclosure behind a Faital M5N12-80 solve the rear chamber issue?
SEOS 24-4 ? OR larger ?? Looks like 30 inch unit
hello Jorg,
What is the exact SEOS model ? It appears to be much larger than 24 inches wide. Thanks !
hello Jorg,
What is the exact SEOS model ? It appears to be much larger than 24 inches wide. Thanks !
Thanks for the pdfs. I went through the Mysteries of Phase Plugs and didn't seem as complicated as I had thought. Maybe I would be willing to go into in. Need to look into the other two pdfs.
Unfortunately JBL Pro doesn't sell those in my country. I could buy them in the US and have them sent here, but seems quite cumbersome vs buying another good driver, such as the Faital, locally. Does the Faital M5N12-80 seem a good candidate to you for phase plug and horn loading?
Beyma 605Nd?
Would building a small sealed enclosure for the M5N12 solve the lack of back enclosure issue???
Having used the JBL CMCD 81 in my system within it's range it might be perfect for a 3 to 5 way home system. But outside of it's range forget about it. The cones I posted the response measurements all were without phase plug and without back chamber. Almost all of them can cover the same range as the CMCD and a couple of them I may actually prefer depending on the mating of the whole system. Back chambers in midrange horns really don't "annul the reactance" to the magnitude of a cone used lower. The PHL 6.5" drivers I have are IMO pour copies of the Audax PR170MO - I have a couple of pair of them buried around here some where and can probably get you the models I have. The break up and upper end in the PHL is far worse than the Audax - i was not impressed with them as direct radiators or horn drivers. A driver that is better than all the cones including the JBL is the Community M200 - it too is limited in bandwith but within it's 400- 3K window I see no reason to explore a cone midrange horn driver. YMMV 🙂
Added this - what you have to decide is what will you be crossing over to above (and below) the mid range horn? I always like a 1" compression driver and find they almost all can be crossed over 3K or lower so how high does the midrange horn need to operate? Most low mid horns or bass horns work well to 300-400 cycles so a mid horn that kicks butt between 400/500-2.5K should be perfect
The McBean program is GREAT for the bottom range of the horn but really doesn't indicate what the upper end of the response of the horn will really be..
Added this - what you have to decide is what will you be crossing over to above (and below) the mid range horn? I always like a 1" compression driver and find they almost all can be crossed over 3K or lower so how high does the midrange horn need to operate? Most low mid horns or bass horns work well to 300-400 cycles so a mid horn that kicks butt between 400/500-2.5K should be perfect
The McBean program is GREAT for the bottom range of the horn but really doesn't indicate what the upper end of the response of the horn will really be..
Last edited:
For your application I like the 'beef' of the Faital 8PR210, but nothing in an open frame driver is going to beat the pre-engineered JBL CMCD 8" Driver at its price point.
For DIY you will size the back box volume using David's program. As it should be lined with a thick (2+ cm) felt pad, you will need to increase the volume accordingly. I like to use a triangular box if possible to mitigate standing waves that otherwise form inside it.
Regards,
WHG
If he's building a hypex mid horn the back chamber can annul the throat reactance, tractrix, expo, or others is a no or crap shoot. Have you used the JBL CMCD? In what horn? What bandwith? They are pretty expensive at retail, I'm certain i could make a cone driver like the little 5" Faital out perform the CMCD 81, it actually is quite close with the edge going to the Faital in the top end with no phase plug or back chamber in a couple of my 4" horns.
A good seal is critical, and so I assume is not using soft fillers/cabinet resonances. This (hornresp) is how Jean-Michel suggests to do it, GD shown for interest as it seems to contribute to the 300+ crossover in this example. Romy suggests cabinet strength is the key.
Attachments
I bought them from a JBL Pro dealer in the US since my local JBL Pro dealer don't like to sell spare parts to private persons.
I would make a new phase plug or use/modify the CMCD-61H phase plugs for the PHL driver.
I don't know if it's a good idea to just build a small closed rear chamber to a driver. I think the driver's specs will tell you that. I am not an expert, but will assume that high Vas is prefered. A driver with high Vas is for example the JBL 2119. Maybe someone else can confirm this.
I have not tried the CMCD without phase plug myself, but a friend of me did and he had to cross over way lower than with a phase plug.
The horn is Seos 24-4 and can be found on Auto-Tech's web site: horn-diy.pl
Have you read their sample policy?
Tractrix horns cannot be annulled completely they are too short. I suppose the big mouth lip Lecleach are too short (depends on T - hypex will for sure) but never checked - not interested except maybe for treble. I use back chambers even if they don't let you tune to the flare/mouth because I don't like the back wave. These short horns don't load (turn on!) to the flare frequency that's why - too short - back chamber is sorta a waste
Last edited:
Nope, just tried to order 2pc from TeamAudio.
Somebody have to get some straight from PHL and measure them like a BOSS
Last edited: