You mean its response in the conical horns you are using with JBL's. Would you share the sim and photos of your horn please.
Also, I have got a hypex amp driving the tapped horn. I have a spare minidsp 2x4 as well. I can use the minidsp to equilize the tapped horn to play to 110 without too many problems.
Also, I have got a hypex amp driving the tapped horn. I have a spare minidsp 2x4 as well. I can use the minidsp to equilize the tapped horn to play to 110 without too many problems.
Last edited:
My FLH's are a bit overkill with dual horns, but using dual seems to smoothen out the response, extend them a bit lower and reduce floor cancellations.
This is how your supravox simulates in a single FLH similar to mine. 1pi
It seems like you would get your -6dB point (xover to TH) at 70hz. Going exponential or hyperbolic would probably smoothen out the response, but will be a much more complicated build
This is how your supravox simulates in a single FLH similar to mine. 1pi
It seems like you would get your -6dB point (xover to TH) at 70hz. Going exponential or hyperbolic would probably smoothen out the response, but will be a much more complicated build
Great looking system! I am sure it sounds good as well 🙂
Can you share the plans for your low mid flh's. 70hz is great for me to cross to my tapped horn, it flat to 440hz as well! This would work very nicely for me
Can you share the plans for your low mid flh's. 70hz is great for me to cross to my tapped horn, it flat to 440hz as well! This would work very nicely for me
Changing the flare to exponential seems to give a smoother acoustic HP and a generally flatter response. I have no electric HP on mine. Just a notch at 100hz to match a 6th order LR HP.
I dont have detailed plans, as we were improvising a lot when building.
The parameters for the conical horn that gave me the above response for your supravox is as follows:
Horn Throat: 400cm2
Horn mouth: 3000cm2 (tune the Dimensions to your likings. I have 40x72 approx)
Length of horn 87cm
Back Chamber 30L
Put the data into hornresp and experiment with the compression ratio (throat area) and back chamber. JBL 2220 seems to like a really small one, but the supravox did not agree on that. In Hornresp that is...
Im very happy with my system, but there is a lot of fine tuning left to do. I do not have the nerves to go five ways yet. I find it confusing enough to work with a fourway system.
The parameters for the conical horn that gave me the above response for your supravox is as follows:
Horn Throat: 400cm2
Horn mouth: 3000cm2 (tune the Dimensions to your likings. I have 40x72 approx)
Length of horn 87cm
Back Chamber 30L
Put the data into hornresp and experiment with the compression ratio (throat area) and back chamber. JBL 2220 seems to like a really small one, but the supravox did not agree on that. In Hornresp that is...
Im very happy with my system, but there is a lot of fine tuning left to do. I do not have the nerves to go five ways yet. I find it confusing enough to work with a fourway system.
Hi Johan,
Your system looks great!
Could you please share the details of the rest of the speakers (drivers, horns, crossover points, etc.).
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Your system looks great!
Could you please share the details of the rest of the speakers (drivers, horns, crossover points, etc.).
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Hi Peter! Remember we talked about the midrange conical horns?
System is as follows
Subhorns with eighteensound 21lw1400. Horn designed by Rune Skramstad. Xover 85hz
Double FLH 85-350 with JBL 2220A
JBL CMCD in custom Autotech horn designed by a friend with 4" throat 350-1700
JBL 2451SL and soon Truextent 1700-15k ish in JBL pt-h95hf
I love the sound of a large format driver in the treble. So effortless and open
System is as follows
Subhorns with eighteensound 21lw1400. Horn designed by Rune Skramstad. Xover 85hz
Double FLH 85-350 with JBL 2220A
JBL CMCD in custom Autotech horn designed by a friend with 4" throat 350-1700
JBL 2451SL and soon Truextent 1700-15k ish in JBL pt-h95hf
I love the sound of a large format driver in the treble. So effortless and open
Cool, thanks!
How big is the Seos horn (30"?)
Did you try out other drivers for the Seos horn than the JBL CMCD - and in case of 'yes', then how did they compare?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
How big is the Seos horn (30"?)
Did you try out other drivers for the Seos horn than the JBL CMCD - and in case of 'yes', then how did they compare?
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
The midrange horn is approx 30". We have not tried with other drivers yet, but I am sure there are a lot of suitable 8" and 10" for this kind of horn.
The Magic of the CMCD is the phasing plug and Integrated back chamber. I dont think it would be easy to extend a 8" or 10" this high up without a phasing plug.
Usable frequency range of the CMCD in this horn is 220hz to 2000hz. That makes it really flexible regarding midbass solution and treble horn. There is a friend thats gonna test it out in a traxtrix 180hz.
Im quite eager to hear how it will behave in a more traditional horn
Many horn guys in Norway have been searching for a traditional compression driver that can be crossed as low as possible, but it seems that most conclude that below 600hz is cone driver Territory. It is probably very horn dependant, and I was quite happy with Altec/GPA crossed over at 400 in a JMLC 200T, but the size of that thing...
The Magic of the CMCD is the phasing plug and Integrated back chamber. I dont think it would be easy to extend a 8" or 10" this high up without a phasing plug.
Usable frequency range of the CMCD in this horn is 220hz to 2000hz. That makes it really flexible regarding midbass solution and treble horn. There is a friend thats gonna test it out in a traxtrix 180hz.
Im quite eager to hear how it will behave in a more traditional horn
Many horn guys in Norway have been searching for a traditional compression driver that can be crossed as low as possible, but it seems that most conclude that below 600hz is cone driver Territory. It is probably very horn dependant, and I was quite happy with Altec/GPA crossed over at 400 in a JMLC 200T, but the size of that thing...
Last edited:
kodomo,
I like your project !!! The Supravox is an excellent driver and very capable down to about 80hz. I would "bite the bullet " and put that driver into a larger horn ( rectangular if need be ) if at all possible. You will definitely have trouble in the 100hz - 110hz range if you run a tapped horn up that high. The " magic " practical number for to shoot for is 80hz to a max of 100hz. for a low end of a mid bass horn, as per Dr. Bruce. Of course bigger is better if room, wallet, and WAF are in agreement. There are options, like a very large bass horn that John Inlow uses which is WAY too big for all but a lucky few. You may get better bass integration results using a couple of sealed Beyma 12" or 15" woofers per channel using DSP but at the expense of less efficiency. The 80hz. to 400hz. frequency range is VERY critical and will make or break your speaker system. As a general rule, keep most tapped horns to a max of 80hz. Good luck.
I like your project !!! The Supravox is an excellent driver and very capable down to about 80hz. I would "bite the bullet " and put that driver into a larger horn ( rectangular if need be ) if at all possible. You will definitely have trouble in the 100hz - 110hz range if you run a tapped horn up that high. The " magic " practical number for to shoot for is 80hz to a max of 100hz. for a low end of a mid bass horn, as per Dr. Bruce. Of course bigger is better if room, wallet, and WAF are in agreement. There are options, like a very large bass horn that John Inlow uses which is WAY too big for all but a lucky few. You may get better bass integration results using a couple of sealed Beyma 12" or 15" woofers per channel using DSP but at the expense of less efficiency. The 80hz. to 400hz. frequency range is VERY critical and will make or break your speaker system. As a general rule, keep most tapped horns to a max of 80hz. Good luck.
After going all out, driving the midbass horn down to 80hz is not what I want to do. I actually started to think that 100cm tractrix with the Supravox should operate around 156hz to 622hz. This would solve the group delay problems with the 100cm horn. Its cf is 100hz, 156hz is good enough to be used.
Tapped horn: 20 hz -78 hz (a single one may suffice, and I have it)
Backloaded bass: 78 hz - 156 hz (two at least, scoop designs are easy to build, may go for four for efficiency) JBL 4530 scoop bins with JBL 2226h drivers
cf100 tractrix: 156 hz - 622 hz (supravox 285-2000 easily operates between these)
cf200 tractrix: 622 hz - 2489 hz (tad 4001 would be very flat and will have headroom in both sides of the frequency between 622 and 2489)
cf600 tractrix: 2489hz - 9956 hz (tad 2001 looks flat around these too)
fostex t500: 9956hz to its upper limit (above 10k is what fostex actually intended this unit to be used and its efficiency is higher in that region)
What do you guys think. I am going back and forth and in the end it ended like a Cessaro Gamma back again! People warned me about the back loaded, scoop kind of horn, but if it is good enough for cessaro may be it is good enough for me 🙂 And for 78hz-156hz only!
Tapped horn: 20 hz -78 hz (a single one may suffice, and I have it)
Backloaded bass: 78 hz - 156 hz (two at least, scoop designs are easy to build, may go for four for efficiency) JBL 4530 scoop bins with JBL 2226h drivers
cf100 tractrix: 156 hz - 622 hz (supravox 285-2000 easily operates between these)
cf200 tractrix: 622 hz - 2489 hz (tad 4001 would be very flat and will have headroom in both sides of the frequency between 622 and 2489)
cf600 tractrix: 2489hz - 9956 hz (tad 2001 looks flat around these too)
fostex t500: 9956hz to its upper limit (above 10k is what fostex actually intended this unit to be used and its efficiency is higher in that region)
What do you guys think. I am going back and forth and in the end it ended like a Cessaro Gamma back again! People warned me about the back loaded, scoop kind of horn, but if it is good enough for cessaro may be it is good enough for me 🙂 And for 78hz-156hz only!
Last edited:
As I am going to operate the tractrix 200 between 622hz and 2489 hz, I can put a JMLC 270, and JMLC 600 instead of the tractrix 600. Do you think it JMLC profile would be better than tractrix in this application? Any experiences?
Last edited:
Dear kodomo
The scoop bins i have been curious about, but never heard. But in my humble opinion: Introducing yet another channel with more amplification, crossovers and DSP settings makes life quite complicated.
Covering the whole midbass area with one horn is in my opinion optimal and makes integration and time alignment with the rest of the horns much easier.
As I mentioned, the supravox simulates beautifully in a front horn with a usable frequencyrange from 80-600hz. That gives you a lot of freedom to choose the best crossover to your mid horn.
Group delay is very short according to Hornresp, and impulse response is Picture Perfect.
Edit: I was looking at some measurements of my front horns. Group delay is under 10ms at 80hz, and practically zero from 100hz and upwards
The scoop bins i have been curious about, but never heard. But in my humble opinion: Introducing yet another channel with more amplification, crossovers and DSP settings makes life quite complicated.
Covering the whole midbass area with one horn is in my opinion optimal and makes integration and time alignment with the rest of the horns much easier.
As I mentioned, the supravox simulates beautifully in a front horn with a usable frequencyrange from 80-600hz. That gives you a lot of freedom to choose the best crossover to your mid horn.
Group delay is very short according to Hornresp, and impulse response is Picture Perfect.
Edit: I was looking at some measurements of my front horns. Group delay is under 10ms at 80hz, and practically zero from 100hz and upwards
Last edited:
First of all, thank you Johan for all the experience you share with me 🙂 especially on the JMLC front!
The scoops and tapped horn will be the only ones driven by amplification with dsp. The rest (156hz onwards) will be on the passive crossover and fed by my set amp. Except for the tapped, I can physically align the rest of the system with measuring the impulse responses and moving them back and forth in the horizontal plane. The tapped is crossing so low that I don't think it will cause a problem because of the time alignment. I will place it closer to me than the rest of the system too...
Also I don't want to use the TD-2001 over 10k, as t500mkII is better at those frequincies and extends beyond 2001 (I hear/feel a positive difference in sound with supertweeters)
Yes it is becoming more channels and integration will be a thing to consider. I can align the scoops in the time domain but they will be off centre with the rest of the drivers. Still as they operate just above the localization limit of our ears and just for an octave it may not cause a problem. No one who heard cessaro gamma's told me anything about bass localisation problems...
I can not find a design that I feel comfortable that operates between 80-600hz. Either they are too big or they are deformed. The group delays and phase shift being one thing and the way they integrate visually is another... Also I don't want any distortion or problems because of circle to square transition at the mouth. I have that problem in the tractrix I built two weeks ago (still sounds very good though)
I will be sitting about 4,5meters away from the speakers. I think it will be enough for the system to sound integrated...
The scoops and tapped horn will be the only ones driven by amplification with dsp. The rest (156hz onwards) will be on the passive crossover and fed by my set amp. Except for the tapped, I can physically align the rest of the system with measuring the impulse responses and moving them back and forth in the horizontal plane. The tapped is crossing so low that I don't think it will cause a problem because of the time alignment. I will place it closer to me than the rest of the system too...
Also I don't want to use the TD-2001 over 10k, as t500mkII is better at those frequincies and extends beyond 2001 (I hear/feel a positive difference in sound with supertweeters)
Yes it is becoming more channels and integration will be a thing to consider. I can align the scoops in the time domain but they will be off centre with the rest of the drivers. Still as they operate just above the localization limit of our ears and just for an octave it may not cause a problem. No one who heard cessaro gamma's told me anything about bass localisation problems...
I can not find a design that I feel comfortable that operates between 80-600hz. Either they are too big or they are deformed. The group delays and phase shift being one thing and the way they integrate visually is another... Also I don't want any distortion or problems because of circle to square transition at the mouth. I have that problem in the tractrix I built two weeks ago (still sounds very good though)
I will be sitting about 4,5meters away from the speakers. I think it will be enough for the system to sound integrated...
Last edited:
Being comfortable with the design is the most important criteria in this planning stage!
It is a very ambitious project you are planning, and it will be very exiting to follow this process. It is a rare thing with a massive DIY horn project of this scale.
Good Luck!
It is a very ambitious project you are planning, and it will be very exiting to follow this process. It is a rare thing with a massive DIY horn project of this scale.
Good Luck!
It is a very big project! So, I wont rush and try to plan a lot. I will go exchanging piece by piece with my system as well. I already have the tapped horn, its dedicated hypex amp and the super tweeters. I have my set amp for the rest of the system as well.
Next I will buy the JMLC 270 horns and TAD drivers. Take off my tractrix and BMS.
In the meantime I will be building the scoops and getting the Supravox drivers, and the hypex psc2.400.
After that will be the bigger move, buying the 110tractrix and JMLC 600. At that point I will be needing to have the new crossover too. I will keep on exchanging pieces with my system, so I can continue to listen to music at my main room and familiarise with each of the components. Hearing and measuring their strength and weaknesses...
Next I will buy the JMLC 270 horns and TAD drivers. Take off my tractrix and BMS.
In the meantime I will be building the scoops and getting the Supravox drivers, and the hypex psc2.400.
After that will be the bigger move, buying the 110tractrix and JMLC 600. At that point I will be needing to have the new crossover too. I will keep on exchanging pieces with my system, so I can continue to listen to music at my main room and familiarise with each of the components. Hearing and measuring their strength and weaknesses...
Last edited:
JMLC270 and Tad4001 is a great match. If you have a hard time finding a pair of 4001 in good shape , JBL2445,2446 and 2450 With Truextent (Be) diagraphms could be a very good alternative. It will be significantly cheaper as well, and you know that your new diaphragms never took abuse in a PA system
Just one question: You know that your SET amp is quiet enough for compression drivers? I had to ditch my 845 SET when going down the long and windy horn road.
Just one question: You know that your SET amp is quiet enough for compression drivers? I had to ditch my 845 SET when going down the long and windy horn road.
Last edited:
I am not buying TAD's second hand so I won;t worry about the PA beating 🙂
Well, I don't know if my perception about my amp would change but it is really really good and I am very satisfied. I have a Line Magnetic 219ia. My system is already 103+ db efficient and I have no problems with noise. I use it with Western Electric 300b and 845's. For preamp I have nos Telefunkens on them now (I have a few good nos tubes for my system, rca's from 50's etc) This amp is the best set amp I heard regardless of its price.
When I listen to DSD's and bypass its preamp it is absolutely silent. I have Purepower APS 2000+ conditioner/ups as well. My transrotor phono 8mc is very very silent phono preamp too. Its the two chassis one, one for power and one for pre. I had a shootout at my place with a lot of phono preamps and this was the most silent one.
What I can do further about noise is buying a Music First Audio Baby Reference preamp and bypass the LM219 preamp forever. The only noise I get is from the preamp section of LM219ia when used (for phono, reel to reel etc).
Well, I don't know if my perception about my amp would change but it is really really good and I am very satisfied. I have a Line Magnetic 219ia. My system is already 103+ db efficient and I have no problems with noise. I use it with Western Electric 300b and 845's. For preamp I have nos Telefunkens on them now (I have a few good nos tubes for my system, rca's from 50's etc) This amp is the best set amp I heard regardless of its price.
When I listen to DSD's and bypass its preamp it is absolutely silent. I have Purepower APS 2000+ conditioner/ups as well. My transrotor phono 8mc is very very silent phono preamp too. Its the two chassis one, one for power and one for pre. I had a shootout at my place with a lot of phono preamps and this was the most silent one.
What I can do further about noise is buying a Music First Audio Baby Reference preamp and bypass the LM219 preamp forever. The only noise I get is from the preamp section of LM219ia when used (for phono, reel to reel etc).
- Status
- Not open for further replies.