Its not a K-33, I have changed it with Crites woofer, with proper sealing, it goes down around 40ish hz. I have also a different crossover which works with the bassbins better.
This project is constantly being reconsidered while I experiment on different horns. I am now in the process of building a few different midrange horns...
A basshorn that operates below 100hz, unless folded seems a little fantastic to me. It seems the problems I have to solve having that outweighs the possible advantages....
I love my tapped horn, but I dont want to operate it up to 100hz. I am now using it up to 60's and with a smooth filter crossing to klipschorns, and its good. I dont want to go higher than that. This means I need a 30hz cf horn, which is a little unrealistic...
This project is constantly being reconsidered while I experiment on different horns. I am now in the process of building a few different midrange horns...
A basshorn that operates below 100hz, unless folded seems a little fantastic to me. It seems the problems I have to solve having that outweighs the possible advantages....
I love my tapped horn, but I dont want to operate it up to 100hz. I am now using it up to 60's and with a smooth filter crossing to klipschorns, and its good. I dont want to go higher than that. This means I need a 30hz cf horn, which is a little unrealistic...
OK, I will watch your project with interest since I have similar concept for years and left my K-horn bass bins in old house to wait until I find the space to use them. I changed the adapter plate in K-Horn from 3x13 to 6"x13 (I didn't need the supposed HF extension) and driver from K-33 to Altec 803A since I could not afford nor find Vitavox K15 driver. The K-33 family of drivers (and I guess that will include Bob's driver) are meant as a compromise between the bass and midbass/upperbass performance. Below the horn flare the woofer simply acts as a direct radiator and chokes the horn resulting in a boomy compromised sound .You don't need that since you're going to use K-horn only for narrow mid-bass channel . If you decide to go for big round (or square ) upper bass 100Hz horn like John Hasquin or Romy you may consider moving K-horns in opposite corners of the room if applicable in your space . It would free the front space and maybe even allow for time alignment of Midbass channel .You'd be effectively sitting in between the midbass and the rest of the system. Don't get hung up on round horns no matter what you read here. Once I took my 340hz Edgar tractrix with TAD TD4001 to a friends system with Altec 805 multicell and RCA big format driver . I was confident that TAD will simply instantly kill that old crap , boy - was I naive those days.
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limono - The multicells i've had/have all were unacceptable to me - i found they were too colored above like 1.5K and gave the sensation of the sound being projected in the room like little fingers lobing against each other - most people that listened to them agreed. it may have been because my room is only 26 feet deep and they were too close. For old large format horns i much prefer the big JBL radials or electro Voice HR horns - funny how people hear different things with different horns
Yes , it's all subjective to a degree . I lent the big "white whales " EV horns to my friend with multicells and he said after a while that he likes them better. The point is that round tractrix horn is not always the end and best solution in all applications with all drivers.
You might want to consider a University Classic which covers 60Hz to 500Hz with fantastic efficiency of about 103dB/watt with a good 15in driver. This should XO to your TH nicely.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/156597-university-classicdean-horn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/146927-the-rebirth-of-the-university-classics/
They can be flipped 90 deg to save some floor space:
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/156597-university-classicdean-horn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/146927-the-rebirth-of-the-university-classics/
They can be flipped 90 deg to save some floor space:
You know , it is a possibility . I really don't want to Crap Codomo's thread and only posted because it's so similar to what I wanted to do for many years . I still have horns ,drivers bits and pieces just lack the proper space (and probably dedication to do it) It is not a universal system for rental apartment.
Pooh "IF" , you would have to live with reasonably small folded square midbass horn 60/80-500Hz what would it be? I considered Edgar Show horn but never heard that and maybe it's true that direct 15" is simply better although pretty much every report of Living Voice Vox Olympian is extremely enthusiastic and it's pretty much refined (?) version of Vitavox thunderbolt PA box.
Pooh "IF" , you would have to live with reasonably small folded square midbass horn 60/80-500Hz what would it be? I considered Edgar Show horn but never heard that and maybe it's true that direct 15" is simply better although pretty much every report of Living Voice Vox Olympian is extremely enthusiastic and it's pretty much refined (?) version of Vitavox thunderbolt PA box.
The show horn with round curves and heavy multi-ply birch with something close to EVM12/15 would be fine - I find splitting the bass up like in this thread to a straight horn for 80-120 up and either corner basshorns the "tapped horns? (never built or heard any) or a multi driver direct radiator system - this all depends on the room and where you can place this monster system - is a better way to go than folding the horn ( I built show horn and liked enough to build another - sold em though to a friend ) and trying to squeeze out response below 80 cycles. To much compromise in the low midrange to go that high with folds in my experiance. I have built better folded midbass horns than the showhorn but it was for a fellow that only needed them to get to 250-300 cycles cleanly.
The Olympian sounded excellent with smooth audiophile music at Munich. Not something I'd personally want to recreate the sound of for my taste. Though the room and seating plays such a big factor that it's hard to take much of anything away from there. The WE room was the one I enjoyed the most from a purely musical, non-audiophile sense.
I use a similar solution in my bass horn as the vox olympian, The horn is just slightly bigger. What makes the difference is the Vitavox AK157. Its a wonderful bass horn driver, with amazing transients.
That's why recommended Altec 803A , probably Altec 515 with phenolic spider rolled paper
suspension is even better. Those drivers are well recognized and fetch high prices for a reason. Romy da Cat did not discover anything as brilliant as he might be regarding the pedigree of worthy speaker drivers.
I would rather follow Living Voice because I own their "cheap" Avatar auditorium speaker and it's a CRACKER. It's something I can relate to, while I could never get TAD 4001 to work to my liking in any tractrix horn. (but I have not heard it in 180hz grand Sierra/Brooks horns). Living Voice Olympian may be pedestrian looking topology but it's a personality statement while Cesarro just stick in the most expensive commercially available bits in typically German fashion. That's all there is to it
suspension is even better. Those drivers are well recognized and fetch high prices for a reason. Romy da Cat did not discover anything as brilliant as he might be regarding the pedigree of worthy speaker drivers.
I would rather follow Living Voice because I own their "cheap" Avatar auditorium speaker and it's a CRACKER. It's something I can relate to, while I could never get TAD 4001 to work to my liking in any tractrix horn. (but I have not heard it in 180hz grand Sierra/Brooks horns). Living Voice Olympian may be pedestrian looking topology but it's a personality statement while Cesarro just stick in the most expensive commercially available bits in typically German fashion. That's all there is to it
i use two Altec 803A in a line array configuration with my basshorn. The altecs are wonderful. Fast and soft at the same time. I am fully happy with them. Romy the Cat is still in the stone age era in regard of audio. Wondering why someone still mentions him...... his ideas should belong to the waste bin. A TAD 4001 in a 180hz tractrix horn would sound aweful as well. I made experiments with Radian 950pb, and Line Magnetic 555 in my lower midrange horn, and did not get good results out of it. The TAD 4001 sounds agressive and hard to my ears. Heard it several times. Even in the original TAD speakers, they sound harsh. I could never become friend with it.
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Ok ,lets drop Romy , he would not be happy that I drag his name all over DIY audio anyway. But to set the record straight to me he lives in a year of 2500 while most of us still in 1980 ghetto blaster era .😀
Kevin Brooks told me that actually TAD 4001 in his huge 180hz wooden horns sounded wonderful crossed very,very low but I never heard it used that way.
Angelo, I also never heard Vitavox S2. Is there any chance that very old recharged Altec 288c with some sort of new diaphragm (GPA , or symbiotic ) would be remotely comparable in 500-5K Hz band pass to S2?
I have become a advocate of NO horns specially in the mid range region. I have experimented for many years with all kind of drivers ( altec 802, 288-16G, BMS4592nd, Radian 950pb, Coral M100, Vitavox S2, Line magnetic 555 ) The appraisal of Vitavox S2 is justified, its a very good sounding driver, but Radian 950pb came very close. It had just a littlebit more coloration. And after TPL150 arrived, and i made direct comparisons, i was shocked to perceive how colored actually horns sound. You don't perceive that much, when you don't compare. But in direct A/B comparison, the picture becomes clear immediately. The only drawback might be, that you lose a littlebit dynamics, but thats little to what you gain: naturalness, timbre, holographic image through bipole configuration, and specially NO agressiveness, but really smooth reproduction of the whole frequency range all the way up. The fact that you can employ it in two way configuration is the cream on the cake...... The amt i had here that works from 150hz up was sounding even softer, so i think there might come up products based on amt technology which will top the Beyma. Specially a fullrange amt. If someone brings that out on the market, then i certainly will replace my cone driver.
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I have the Sierra Brooks 180 horns with TAD 4002 (sold the 4001s) sitting here collecting dust. They beam too much for me when used full range and need a tweeter that is always too far away to blend in. Multi way can be a bit better if the horns aren't too far apart and they get aligned precisely - then you still have a pretty tight listening area. Lots of work most people will never get it right - A full range horn system is kinda like having a rhino as a pet.
Yes. They have a "reverberant" sort of sound like you would hear in a plate reverb used in recording old albums. Quite musical and non fatiguing. They also benefited from being in a very large listening room, most other rooms were small.
IMHO Cessaro drivers are less dear than the Olympian. For example retail price on TAD CD are cheaper than the Vitavox S2, and there are always loads of TAD drivers on the second hand market (where I bought mine and could resell without much loss). And the Supravox field coils are about 1900 Euro a pair, also significantly cheaper than Vitavox K15.
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Ok. As I have said before, I want to experiment with as many horns as possible. I started building a cf 190hz tractrix horn with rectangular mouth.
I have a cf 260hz rectangular mouth tractrix on top of my klipschorns. I cross it around 380hz. I had a problem (though no one but me seems to care) with phase shift close to crossover point. I built this one I want to see if I can get rid of that. I also wanted to see what difference it will make with a bigger horn but with the same crossover points.
I have a cf 260hz rectangular mouth tractrix on top of my klipschorns. I cross it around 380hz. I had a problem (though no one but me seems to care) with phase shift close to crossover point. I built this one I want to see if I can get rid of that. I also wanted to see what difference it will make with a bigger horn but with the same crossover points.
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I printed the template on a paper. Cut it out of 10mm marine plywood. Then built the jig to hold them on the right incline. While holding them, I used the bendable plywood to build the side walls. I sanded roughly. Next step is more sending, primers and then paint.
I am also going to build the mouth transition piece from round to square. I calculated it as well. So it will be a gradual transition roughly fitting the tractrix curve...
I am also going to build the mouth transition piece from round to square. I calculated it as well. So it will be a gradual transition roughly fitting the tractrix curve...
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Ok! I have been building and listening to midrange horns. Next week I plan on buying a 200 tractrix from Gpoint audio. If it sounds like I anticipate, all hell will break loose and I will buy 4 more horns from these guys.
The crossover point have been set now for the 5 way. Here it goes with relevant drivers and horns, I am not sure with the tapped horn to low midbass horn, I think there might be some problems around 90-110hz... The tapped shouldn't go that high (irregularities over 100hz). The 110cf shouldn't play that low (phasing, group delay) However with gentle 6db slopes they may integrate, I will need to hear for sure. I am open to suggestions based on similar experiences.
Here is the latest iteration of the project!
28hz - 110hz - Eminence 3015lf with Eminence Tapped Horn (volvotreter.de)
110hz - 440hz - Supravox 285-2000 with 110cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
440hz - 1760hz - Tad 4001 or 4003 with 200cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
1760hz - 7040hz - Tad 2001 with 600cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
7040hz - 35000hz - Fostex T500amkII
People recommend tad 703 tweetr but I already have the Fostex, and I don't think there would be too much of a difference to go into that road!
The crossover point have been set now for the 5 way. Here it goes with relevant drivers and horns, I am not sure with the tapped horn to low midbass horn, I think there might be some problems around 90-110hz... The tapped shouldn't go that high (irregularities over 100hz). The 110cf shouldn't play that low (phasing, group delay) However with gentle 6db slopes they may integrate, I will need to hear for sure. I am open to suggestions based on similar experiences.
Here is the latest iteration of the project!
28hz - 110hz - Eminence 3015lf with Eminence Tapped Horn (volvotreter.de)
110hz - 440hz - Supravox 285-2000 with 110cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
440hz - 1760hz - Tad 4001 or 4003 with 200cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
1760hz - 7040hz - Tad 2001 with 600cf Round tractrix (gpoint)
7040hz - 35000hz - Fostex T500amkII
People recommend tad 703 tweetr but I already have the Fostex, and I don't think there would be too much of a difference to go into that road!
Some opinions based on my own system and systems I have listened to:
Regarding the tapped horn: There will be no such thing as a gentle 6dB slope crossed that high. You will have a quite severe resonance somewhere between 100 and 110hz that needs to be tamed in a DSP if you going to cross over anywhere near it. The crossover slope needs to be quite steep.
I cross my Subhorns at 85hz to a pair of conical midbasshorns with JBL2220A approximately 85cm long with a 3000cm2 mouth. I have to notch down the resonance in the TH with approximately 10dB to get a fairly smooth 4th order LR crossover
Regarding the tapped horn: There will be no such thing as a gentle 6dB slope crossed that high. You will have a quite severe resonance somewhere between 100 and 110hz that needs to be tamed in a DSP if you going to cross over anywhere near it. The crossover slope needs to be quite steep.
I cross my Subhorns at 85hz to a pair of conical midbasshorns with JBL2220A approximately 85cm long with a 3000cm2 mouth. I have to notch down the resonance in the TH with approximately 10dB to get a fairly smooth 4th order LR crossover
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