Pioneer list the ET703 as available with a price. I will look into them.
Are you going TD4001 to ET703 if so where are you crossing them and with what slope?
jpak,
I hope you are right !!! I was trying to get away with using the Fostex t500amk2 which sounded excellent but came in second to the ET703. I was not happy paying $3k for the TAD's when I already had the Fostex tweeters.
I purchased my ET703's from Professional Audio Design in Mass. about 3 yrs. ago and as far as I know, were the only people selling TAD drivers in the USA at the time. Now their catalog does not show a listing for the ET703 along with some other TAD drivers which they used to carry.
My speaker system so far:
TAD ET703 from 8k on up
Field coil converted jbl 2441 with beryllium diaphragms from 400 hz. to 8k.in a Sierra Brooks 200hz. wood tractrix horns.
Dual Altec 515b's in a front loaded 75-80hz. hypex / exponential horn for 80hz-400hz.
Subwoofers are dual opposed TC Sounds LMS 5400's in 9 cu.ft. sealed box's to cover 16hz. to 80hz. powered by a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000 amps configured as mono blocks which have built in DSP.
The crossovers are all 6db designed by Dr. Bruce for 80hz on up. .
I also have a pair of TAD 2001's and 1000hz wood tractrix horns that have not yet been added to the system to cover about 4k to 8k. I am waiting for another pair of custom field coil drivers from Jeffrey Jackson to be used in place of the 2001's. Everything is subject to change as need be.
I have to say that the system sounds great as is---- without the 2001's, but what the hell !!!
I hope you are right !!! I was trying to get away with using the Fostex t500amk2 which sounded excellent but came in second to the ET703. I was not happy paying $3k for the TAD's when I already had the Fostex tweeters.
I purchased my ET703's from Professional Audio Design in Mass. about 3 yrs. ago and as far as I know, were the only people selling TAD drivers in the USA at the time. Now their catalog does not show a listing for the ET703 along with some other TAD drivers which they used to carry.
My speaker system so far:
TAD ET703 from 8k on up
Field coil converted jbl 2441 with beryllium diaphragms from 400 hz. to 8k.in a Sierra Brooks 200hz. wood tractrix horns.
Dual Altec 515b's in a front loaded 75-80hz. hypex / exponential horn for 80hz-400hz.
Subwoofers are dual opposed TC Sounds LMS 5400's in 9 cu.ft. sealed box's to cover 16hz. to 80hz. powered by a pair of Crown I-Tech 5000 amps configured as mono blocks which have built in DSP.
The crossovers are all 6db designed by Dr. Bruce for 80hz on up. .
I also have a pair of TAD 2001's and 1000hz wood tractrix horns that have not yet been added to the system to cover about 4k to 8k. I am waiting for another pair of custom field coil drivers from Jeffrey Jackson to be used in place of the 2001's. Everything is subject to change as need be.
I have to say that the system sounds great as is---- without the 2001's, but what the hell !!!
Wow hotattoo it all sounds great. Why not go the extra mile and change the sealed box subwoofer to horns as well. Have you tried tapped horns. I have been listening to a variety of subwoofers and I seem to enjoy the tapped horns. Mine are tuned to 20hz but go easily to 18hz with -1db. I used class d, 175watts hypex amp with dsp and it is more than enough. The only drawback maybe the size as mine is 2,50meters high and weighs over 100kg's.
Attachments
There are the ALE drivers to consider, people on Lansing Heritage and the Asylum have chosen the ALEs over the TADs. The only major issue is price, they are apparently a lot more than the TADs and importing them from Japan. If you have interest you try to contact Kevin Brooks in Utah, the last distibutor in the US for ALE.
Rgds,
Clashing
Rgds,
Clashing
What do you people think to match below the fostex t500amkII, around 4k to 10k?
If not TAD drivers and ALE is a strecth for me, what else?
I have BMS 4592nd-mid 16ohms right now. I am using them with a tractix tuned to 300/400hz. They are good but I am sure I can find better.
I am still set on Supravox between 80hz to 400/500hz
If not TAD drivers and ALE is a strecth for me, what else?
I have BMS 4592nd-mid 16ohms right now. I am using them with a tractix tuned to 300/400hz. They are good but I am sure I can find better.
I am still set on Supravox between 80hz to 400/500hz
Kodomo,
Thanks. I considered tapped horns but it would interfere with the movie screen in the ceiling. My subs as 4' high and weigh 400lbs each which allows the movie screen to comes down to the top of them. I would do horn subwoofers but would need to buy a new gigantic house which is out of the question. I am very happy with what I have so far.
I would check ebay for a pair of tad 4001's-- be patient and get a nice pair for not outrageous money. The TAD's are hard to beat. Another good choice might be used JBL 2441 drivers which can be upgraded to Tru-Extent beryllium diaphragms. These drivers sound excellent and don't cost too much.
You can't go wrong Supravox, they are excellent. Cessaro uses them for good reason !!!
Clashing,
I have listened to GOTO and Cogent field coil drivers over the last couple of years and they all sounded great. I have not listened to any Ale drivers but I am sure they are excellent, judging by the positive comments in some forums--but crazy expensive. I like my field coil drives both for the sound and it allows minor tuning of the driver Q which can help get a better blend with the other drivers. I guess when you are at this level of driver the differences are quite small and very subjective. You are also putting a microscope on your entire electronics chain so everything before the speakers must be up to the task.
Thanks. I considered tapped horns but it would interfere with the movie screen in the ceiling. My subs as 4' high and weigh 400lbs each which allows the movie screen to comes down to the top of them. I would do horn subwoofers but would need to buy a new gigantic house which is out of the question. I am very happy with what I have so far.
I would check ebay for a pair of tad 4001's-- be patient and get a nice pair for not outrageous money. The TAD's are hard to beat. Another good choice might be used JBL 2441 drivers which can be upgraded to Tru-Extent beryllium diaphragms. These drivers sound excellent and don't cost too much.
You can't go wrong Supravox, they are excellent. Cessaro uses them for good reason !!!
Clashing,
I have listened to GOTO and Cogent field coil drivers over the last couple of years and they all sounded great. I have not listened to any Ale drivers but I am sure they are excellent, judging by the positive comments in some forums--but crazy expensive. I like my field coil drives both for the sound and it allows minor tuning of the driver Q which can help get a better blend with the other drivers. I guess when you are at this level of driver the differences are quite small and very subjective. You are also putting a microscope on your entire electronics chain so everything before the speakers must be up to the task.
hottattoo that sounds like a great system.
I have a question about the Cessaro full horn systems, do you feel the Supravox 285-2000 is able to cover the lower midrange adequately? With their large horn the driver is also lower than ear level.
I have been thinking about this and have considered using another driver to cover ~300/400 to 700/800 (above that TD4001). POOH has been using JBL CMCD. I'm going to Tokyo next January so I'm going to look into some of the Japanese compression drivers as well.
I have a question about the Cessaro full horn systems, do you feel the Supravox 285-2000 is able to cover the lower midrange adequately? With their large horn the driver is also lower than ear level.
I have been thinking about this and have considered using another driver to cover ~300/400 to 700/800 (above that TD4001). POOH has been using JBL CMCD. I'm going to Tokyo next January so I'm going to look into some of the Japanese compression drivers as well.
jpak,
The Supravox 285-2000 is a great driver. Ralph (Cessaro) has tested every possible driver to cover the required frequency range and uses that driver--that should tell you something. I would not waste my time / money trying to reinvent the wheel !!!
Remember, if you listen to a big horn system like Cessaro you must sit back at least 16' to 18' listening distance so you will definitely be in the mid bass / low midrange soundfield of the horn.
Before you think about buying some "exotic" drivers from Japan make sure you can get parts if needed--as some are not produced in large numbers because they are basically hand made / matched.
However, if you like there is an option for a G.I P. field coil woofer for big $$$$$ if your pockets are deep enough !!! I have no experience with these exotic field coils.
The Supravox 285-2000 is a great driver. Ralph (Cessaro) has tested every possible driver to cover the required frequency range and uses that driver--that should tell you something. I would not waste my time / money trying to reinvent the wheel !!!
Remember, if you listen to a big horn system like Cessaro you must sit back at least 16' to 18' listening distance so you will definitely be in the mid bass / low midrange soundfield of the horn.
Before you think about buying some "exotic" drivers from Japan make sure you can get parts if needed--as some are not produced in large numbers because they are basically hand made / matched.
However, if you like there is an option for a G.I P. field coil woofer for big $$$$$ if your pockets are deep enough !!! I have no experience with these exotic field coils.
Ok, I have been thinking about this again and again! Here is the latest I could come up with. It may ease up the construction!
Eminence Tapped horns - Eminence 3015lf - 20hz - 100hz
Stereo-Lab 100hz spherical horn 10" 110cm mouth - Supravox 285-2000 - 100hz - 380hz
Stereo-Lab 190hz spherical horn 4" 58cm mouth- TAD-4001 - 380hz-8khz
Fostex t500amkII - 8khz-45khz
I have the tapped horns and the supertweeters at hand. I also have amps with crossovers for tapped horns by hypex. However I will need a very good passive crossover and I think of having a pro build it for me. I dont think I need to go active as the drivers will be aligned and all are close in efficiency. I will just need to pad down the midrange TAD's around 7db to 9db's. Supravox is 101db and Fostex are 103db in efficiency.
Getting the Supravox does not present a problem as well, as I have business with France and can import them easily. However the stereo-lab horns are a big question! The cost is quite high and they are also hard to import. I wish I could build them but that is beyond me. I do not know any carpenter skilled enough to build them too. If I had exact plans and an explanation I may find some carpenters but it seems there is no step by step instruction for this ...
Eminence Tapped horns - Eminence 3015lf - 20hz - 100hz
Stereo-Lab 100hz spherical horn 10" 110cm mouth - Supravox 285-2000 - 100hz - 380hz
Stereo-Lab 190hz spherical horn 4" 58cm mouth- TAD-4001 - 380hz-8khz
Fostex t500amkII - 8khz-45khz
I have the tapped horns and the supertweeters at hand. I also have amps with crossovers for tapped horns by hypex. However I will need a very good passive crossover and I think of having a pro build it for me. I dont think I need to go active as the drivers will be aligned and all are close in efficiency. I will just need to pad down the midrange TAD's around 7db to 9db's. Supravox is 101db and Fostex are 103db in efficiency.
Getting the Supravox does not present a problem as well, as I have business with France and can import them easily. However the stereo-lab horns are a big question! The cost is quite high and they are also hard to import. I wish I could build them but that is beyond me. I do not know any carpenter skilled enough to build them too. If I had exact plans and an explanation I may find some carpenters but it seems there is no step by step instruction for this ...
It should be a fantastic system!
Concerning the two mids horns, you may consider the Autotech horns from Polen instead:
Horns
They are cheaper and lighter and therefore easier to ship.
For the TAD I would probably go for a JMLC curvature instead of a tractrix. Autotech sells these as well.
Best regards
Peter
Concerning the two mids horns, you may consider the Autotech horns from Polen instead:
Horns
They are cheaper and lighter and therefore easier to ship.
For the TAD I would probably go for a JMLC curvature instead of a tractrix. Autotech sells these as well.
Best regards
Peter
The 190Hz tractrix will have a narrow directivity above 3kHz.
Ideally, as far as directivity is concerned, you should add a 600Hz tractrix to handle the 3kHz-9kHz range with a 1" driver.
That would get you an almost constant ~60° directivity between 1kHz and 9kHz (don't know about the directivity of the fostex...)
Ideally, as far as directivity is concerned, you should add a 600Hz tractrix to handle the 3kHz-9kHz range with a 1" driver.
That would get you an almost constant ~60° directivity between 1kHz and 9kHz (don't know about the directivity of the fostex...)
I have my modified klipschorn system that I am happy with but I am looking forward to having a full range 5 way (very little compromise) horn speaker
This is just a fantasy now, but as it would cost a lot, I thought why not plan ahead as much as possible. Here is my initial sketch and thoughts on it. It's been obviously inspired by Cessaro speakers. Not a specific model but something in between their Gamma, Beta and Beethoven...
20hz - 60hz - Tapped Horn with 15" driver, this tapped horn will also be the structure that carries the tractrix horns and the bullet tweeter.
60hz - 160hz - 3 of Speakerplans HD15 with 15" drivers. I am very concerned about this range and have little real experience, I want it to be as clear and as high quality as possible. My candidate was HD15's with good quality 15" drivers.
160hz - 600hz - somehting close to 110hz Tractrix horn with special 11" mouth (I need suggestions here) with Supravox 285-2000 (the one cessaro uses in midbass) This is a very important range so I wanted the best quality driver possible in this range. Centre of this channel is about 56cms from the ground.I heard good stuff about Fane 8m but it is out of production and I don't want to deal with that.
600hz - 8000hz - 200hz autotech Tractrix horn with 1" Tad 2001. Updated to 2" TAD 4001 I heard and really like this driver better than my BMS 4592nd-mids. Centre of this channel is 141 cm's from the ground, it may be tilted downwards a little. I can have an adjustment system there.
8000hz - 35.000hz - Fostex t500amkII bullet supertweeter. Centre of this channel is about 101 cm's from the ground. Good height, about ear height when sitting.
I will be utilising a 2 in 10 out active crossover system, and tune the speaker with measurements. I have umik-1 mic coming up, have multichannel external sound-card and rew.
What do you think of this fantasy? Do you think it is worth investing in? Does anyone have recommendations or things I got wrong... I don't have a time limit and I most probably will be spending a lot of my hard earned money on this dream!
Preface: I'm not a DIY'er so you can pretty much discount anything I have to say!
That said, I remain a bit confused.
(I am going to presume you want to make straight horns verses folded?)
What I don't get is, why are you seemingly pursuing the goal of more ways verses fewer?
I have an all horn setup.
I can get down to 15/20hz with pretty good authority (Danley DTS-10)
Although my main speaker will evidently go down to 28hz with some eq'ing, let's call it 45 on up.
It's a 2-way and very very very very coherent.
Folded bass horn, two 12" drivers and on top, a modified tractrix horn that is carrying a TAD-4002
Crossover points are (haven't yet figured out the sub-woofers) around 380/400 from the bass bin to the TAD and the TAD goes all the way out.
For home use, this system will pound you into deafness if you want. It will slay any weird dreams you may have about Marie Osmond or Justin Bieber...
So in a 3-way actively crossed system, you can cover the bandwidth that you're pushing for 5 ways.
Seems to me that the fewer crossovers, the higher the intelligibility and the simpler the crossing over issues will be, no?
My system already covers from 18hz to 45khz. I have tapped horn, klipschorn bassbin, tractrix with bms4592nd-mid and a fostex supertweeter on top
This system I am going to build is a different approach hence a different sound. I like to hear different type of midbass than mine. I want to have different crossover points. Round horns rather than my rectangular mouth tractrix and folded horn etc. Covering full range spectrum with relatively flat amplitude is not the end for me. I already have that. I want higher resolution, more depth, wider sweet spot...
Folded bass horn goes below 11"supravox with 110cm 100hz round horn, the Tad is over supravox one with a 4 inch 58cm 190hz horn
That sounds a lot less compromised with the low mid horn. of the TAD drivers I use the 4002 without the throat adapter straight into a small 350 flare Edgar round tractrix crossed in around 900 Hz sounded best. Probably as good as it gets without an extra tweeter horn. In a much bigger horn (180 flare) too much beaming
The difference comes mainly from type of upper midrange/tweeter driver you're going to use below super tweeter. If it's a TAD than ET-703 is a driver of choice if it is any other driver then there is a toss and I (and many other people) preferred Fostex 500MKII.
TD4001 and TD2001 don't compliment each other very well and it's a mistake to use them together.
That's one of the reasons Cesarro horns tend to get such poor opinion from show-goers. Besides the importer and his friends it's actually hard to find any positive
or enthusiastic recommendation while Living Voice Vox Olympian which also uses TAD drivers in tweeter/ super tweeter position receives universal praise and admiration.
Most probably it's due to much more musical and dimensional midrange channel with bi-radial horn and Vitavox S2 driver.
Tad 4001 is very forward sounding while small format drivers 2001/2002 have dept of image similar to old JBL drivers , they don't mix well and 4001 is sounding rather poor in Tractrix horn . Putting Truextent BE into JBL24XX series driver is a half way solution to at least have the same type of sound but it doesn't transform JBL driver into TAD . The resulting driver is less efficient ,it appears to lack the dynamics and lower mid firmness of TAD but it is more dimensional. I tried it on Edgar 270hz horn (Sierra Brooks) and it's kind of lifeless.
Changing slot horn on ET-7003 to LeCleach only make sense if you cross rather low to big format driver (7-12khz max) if you plan on using small format 1" TAD and cross at 15Hhz it does nothing and it may not sound so good.
Using big round 100-500 hz tractrix horn makes little sense to me in 5 way system since you're crossing low to big format driver with tractrix horn. It just takes up valuable vertical space and adds mainly "visual " appeal (important in commercial product like Cesarro). If you have to have tractrix why not make it rectangular? And than if you simply have to have TD4001 buy TH4001 , about the only horn which works with that driver and add Lecleach or Tractrix tweeter /super tweeter.
Rgrds, L
TD4001 and TD2001 don't compliment each other very well and it's a mistake to use them together.
That's one of the reasons Cesarro horns tend to get such poor opinion from show-goers. Besides the importer and his friends it's actually hard to find any positive
or enthusiastic recommendation while Living Voice Vox Olympian which also uses TAD drivers in tweeter/ super tweeter position receives universal praise and admiration.
Most probably it's due to much more musical and dimensional midrange channel with bi-radial horn and Vitavox S2 driver.
Tad 4001 is very forward sounding while small format drivers 2001/2002 have dept of image similar to old JBL drivers , they don't mix well and 4001 is sounding rather poor in Tractrix horn . Putting Truextent BE into JBL24XX series driver is a half way solution to at least have the same type of sound but it doesn't transform JBL driver into TAD . The resulting driver is less efficient ,it appears to lack the dynamics and lower mid firmness of TAD but it is more dimensional. I tried it on Edgar 270hz horn (Sierra Brooks) and it's kind of lifeless.
Changing slot horn on ET-7003 to LeCleach only make sense if you cross rather low to big format driver (7-12khz max) if you plan on using small format 1" TAD and cross at 15Hhz it does nothing and it may not sound so good.
Using big round 100-500 hz tractrix horn makes little sense to me in 5 way system since you're crossing low to big format driver with tractrix horn. It just takes up valuable vertical space and adds mainly "visual " appeal (important in commercial product like Cesarro). If you have to have tractrix why not make it rectangular? And than if you simply have to have TD4001 buy TH4001 , about the only horn which works with that driver and add Lecleach or Tractrix tweeter /super tweeter.
Rgrds, L
My system already covers from 18hz to 45khz. I have tapped horn, klipschorn bassbin, tractrix with bms4592nd-mid and a fostex supertweeter on top
This system I am going to build is a different approach hence a different sound. I like to hear different type of midbass than mine. I want to have different crossover points. Round horns rather than my rectangular mouth tractrix and folded horn etc. Covering full range spectrum with relatively flat amplitude is not the end for me. I already have that. I want higher resolution, more depth, wider sweet spot...
What driver do you have in K-Horn ? If it's default K-33E than you didn't hear what kind of midbass Klipschorn is capable off. Unless you build proper and huge straight 50Hz horn good luck getting similar results. Tapped horn and 100hz round Tractrix won't get you there .
I would keep K-horn bass bins and get proper horn driver with 50-60hz FS and paper roll suspension , not 25 hz bass driver . Than add adjacent channels to your liking .Even 100Hz tractrix if you're so inclined which you can cross at 200hz and have a reference upper midbass.
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