jpak,
the Tad 4001 will go down cleanly to 400hz. in Cessaro's large midrange horn even though the factory spec's say 600hz is the low frequency cut off. Remember, these are heavy duty, pro compression drivers capable of being hammered day and night at high spl's but are be used in a home setting using just a few watts of power.
the Tad 4001 will go down cleanly to 400hz. in Cessaro's large midrange horn even though the factory spec's say 600hz is the low frequency cut off. Remember, these are heavy duty, pro compression drivers capable of being hammered day and night at high spl's but are be used in a home setting using just a few watts of power.
I will be using my Line Magnetic 219ia for lowmid and up and will be using a dsp digital amp for the bass. At least that is the plan for now.
I am wondering if I can ditch the HD15's as well, get the low-mid horn down to 110hz to cover the full lower voicing with the supravox. My friends who are doing PA's told me the same thing about them.
Maybe its really worth adding another driver and a horn like Gamma for the upper mids to get the alignment of the tweeters without the problems.
It is for sure I will be doing a lot of measuring to get these crossover points right. Thats ok, I will have the equipment and my studios control room for this. I won't build the passive crossover until I get this right.
The info I have from this thread up till now adds up to something like this. I am trying to make sure I get things as right as possible. The first step after this will be acquiring the drivers and then deciding to find a great builder for horns or buying them from vendors:
Bass 20hz - 100hz (I am still thinking tapped, as I will have two volvotreter 20hz th's in a few weeks with Eminence definimax 15" drivers)
Low mid - 100hz - 500hz with a Supravox 285-2000 and I am trying to find a suitable horn, that covers this range but as shallow as possible. It will have about 1 meter diameter, I can not escape from that, and that is ok, I love big horns.
Mid - 500hz - 4khz a horn like Jabo KH-53 A, cutoff 350hz, 2" throat with a TAD 4001
Treble - 4khz - 15khz a horn like Jabo KHL-30 cutoff 600hz, 1" throat with a TAD 2001 (I have this, so I can cross the tweeters higher. This would mean physical alignment for tweeter would be possible)
Super Treble - 15khz - 45khz with a milled le cleach for Tad ET703
I am wondering if I can ditch the HD15's as well, get the low-mid horn down to 110hz to cover the full lower voicing with the supravox. My friends who are doing PA's told me the same thing about them.
Maybe its really worth adding another driver and a horn like Gamma for the upper mids to get the alignment of the tweeters without the problems.
It is for sure I will be doing a lot of measuring to get these crossover points right. Thats ok, I will have the equipment and my studios control room for this. I won't build the passive crossover until I get this right.
The info I have from this thread up till now adds up to something like this. I am trying to make sure I get things as right as possible. The first step after this will be acquiring the drivers and then deciding to find a great builder for horns or buying them from vendors:
Bass 20hz - 100hz (I am still thinking tapped, as I will have two volvotreter 20hz th's in a few weeks with Eminence definimax 15" drivers)
Low mid - 100hz - 500hz with a Supravox 285-2000 and I am trying to find a suitable horn, that covers this range but as shallow as possible. It will have about 1 meter diameter, I can not escape from that, and that is ok, I love big horns.
Mid - 500hz - 4khz a horn like Jabo KH-53 A, cutoff 350hz, 2" throat with a TAD 4001
Treble - 4khz - 15khz a horn like Jabo KHL-30 cutoff 600hz, 1" throat with a TAD 2001 (I have this, so I can cross the tweeters higher. This would mean physical alignment for tweeter would be possible)
Super Treble - 15khz - 45khz with a milled le cleach for Tad ET703
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After reading some other forums, people recommend crossing 4001 and 2001 around 2khz rather 4khz. Anyone have any experience with this?
Also Jabo horns are shallower than autotech horns but look like they have similar profiles and cf's. How does Jabo do that?
The low mid horn is left to find out. To go down to 100hz, it will need to have a cf around 50hz! That would make a horn that would be too big! How did cessaro did what they did. Maybe they cross higher than 100, like 160hz and have the horn cf around 80hz?
Then how would the bass cope up with 80-160hz with the same clarity of the spherical horns?
Also Jabo horns are shallower than autotech horns but look like they have similar profiles and cf's. How does Jabo do that?
The low mid horn is left to find out. To go down to 100hz, it will need to have a cf around 50hz! That would make a horn that would be too big! How did cessaro did what they did. Maybe they cross higher than 100, like 160hz and have the horn cf around 80hz?
Then how would the bass cope up with 80-160hz with the same clarity of the spherical horns?
Hi Kodomo,
The reason for the difference in the horn is the curvature. Most of the circular horns from Autotech do either have a LeCleach or a Tractrix curvature (depending on the model), whereas the curvature of the Jabo horns is exponential.
Best regards
Peter
The reason for the difference in the horn is the curvature. Most of the circular horns from Autotech do either have a LeCleach or a Tractrix curvature (depending on the model), whereas the curvature of the Jabo horns is exponential.
Best regards
Peter
kodomo,
You are definitely on the right path.
The mid bass horn is essential and the most difficult. DO NOT SKIMP on this or your efficiency and dynamics will suffer big time !!!
Here is one possible diy solution for a square or rectangle mouth horn :
!. Consult hornsrep and get size of the front horn flare ( bigger is better ) Shoot for 80hz if possible.
2. Once you determine the length, curve and throat size cut a piece of heavy cardboard to the dimension of one side of the horn. Then cut out 5 or 6ribs out of 18mm plywood that matches the curve and mount them to a piece of 18mm square plywood slightly bigger then one horn side. Space the ribs 10cm to 15cm apart making sure there is support at the widest ( mouth ) of the horn side.
3. Get a couple of sheets of "wiggle board "( over here it is 3/8" thick ) also known as bendable plywood. I used 5 pieces per horn side--the thicker the better. Next you trace the horn profile from the cardboard that you made on to the plywood as many pieces as needed. Be precise in your cuts.
4. Now bend the first piece of plywood over the ribs you made and hold down with some clamps. Now use a good furniture grade epoxy-- IT MUST BE EPOXY--not wood glue as the layers of plywood will "creep" over time. Coat the first piece with epoxy and add the next piece of plywood and then continue with the rest of the layers giving time for the glue to harden after each layer. Clap each layer as you go.
5. You repeat this process 4 times for one pair of horns. I made the top and bottom pieces flat using 2 layers of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood using about a 12 degree angle from the throat to the mouth and the horn sides have the curved profile. There will be some final finishing as you finish each horn side and then you can paint of veneer the inside / outside of each piece.
I know it is a lot of work but the results are great !! I hope I explained the process good enough so others can use it. The nice thing about this construction is you can make any size you need and any thickness you want-- and it is VERY rigid. Hope this helps.
You are definitely on the right path.
The mid bass horn is essential and the most difficult. DO NOT SKIMP on this or your efficiency and dynamics will suffer big time !!!
Here is one possible diy solution for a square or rectangle mouth horn :
!. Consult hornsrep and get size of the front horn flare ( bigger is better ) Shoot for 80hz if possible.
2. Once you determine the length, curve and throat size cut a piece of heavy cardboard to the dimension of one side of the horn. Then cut out 5 or 6ribs out of 18mm plywood that matches the curve and mount them to a piece of 18mm square plywood slightly bigger then one horn side. Space the ribs 10cm to 15cm apart making sure there is support at the widest ( mouth ) of the horn side.
3. Get a couple of sheets of "wiggle board "( over here it is 3/8" thick ) also known as bendable plywood. I used 5 pieces per horn side--the thicker the better. Next you trace the horn profile from the cardboard that you made on to the plywood as many pieces as needed. Be precise in your cuts.
4. Now bend the first piece of plywood over the ribs you made and hold down with some clamps. Now use a good furniture grade epoxy-- IT MUST BE EPOXY--not wood glue as the layers of plywood will "creep" over time. Coat the first piece with epoxy and add the next piece of plywood and then continue with the rest of the layers giving time for the glue to harden after each layer. Clap each layer as you go.
5. You repeat this process 4 times for one pair of horns. I made the top and bottom pieces flat using 2 layers of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood using about a 12 degree angle from the throat to the mouth and the horn sides have the curved profile. There will be some final finishing as you finish each horn side and then you can paint of veneer the inside / outside of each piece.
I know it is a lot of work but the results are great !! I hope I explained the process good enough so others can use it. The nice thing about this construction is you can make any size you need and any thickness you want-- and it is VERY rigid. Hope this helps.
kodomo,
Sorry, I didn't take any pictures of the build process, I should have. This was an idea I come up with about 3 yrs. ago while struggling to find a method to make a quality mid bass horn and was not sure that the results were going to be successful. With some patience, tools, and Ok woodworking skills this construction method works great. I suck with computers but will ask a friend of mine to help post some pictures of my system when I see him.
Sorry, I didn't take any pictures of the build process, I should have. This was an idea I come up with about 3 yrs. ago while struggling to find a method to make a quality mid bass horn and was not sure that the results were going to be successful. With some patience, tools, and Ok woodworking skills this construction method works great. I suck with computers but will ask a friend of mine to help post some pictures of my system when I see him.
Jpak,
No---but If I had the room I would definitely own them.
I had the opportunity to buy a pair of the big ALE bass compression drivers but had no room for the GIANT size horns required to get down to 40hz.
However, I am quite happy using dual Altec 515b's in a front loaded hypex / exponential mid bass horn which does 80hz to 400hz clean with snap and power to spare !!!
No---but If I had the room I would definitely own them.
I had the opportunity to buy a pair of the big ALE bass compression drivers but had no room for the GIANT size horns required to get down to 40hz.
However, I am quite happy using dual Altec 515b's in a front loaded hypex / exponential mid bass horn which does 80hz to 400hz clean with snap and power to spare !!!
Thanks, the ALE is several orders out of my price range
I am looking into Altec and Supravox.I don't have the space for a full horn loaded system like described in the first post, but I think I will do something like Lynn Olson in his Beyond Ariel thread for the time being. TD4001 in Autotech 270 JMLC.
jpak,
The horns pictured in the first post look very close to the Cessaro Beta speaker system. The mid bass horn is about 1 meter in diameter. I would not do the sub horn system, also in the picture, unless you have a large room.
Supravox makes some excellent drivers ( I have Supraxox 215-2000 8" field coil drivers ) but would go with Altec because they are made here, just in case you run into a problem.
I don't know what Lynn wound up using for his mid bass system-- the Ariel thread is WAY long.
John Inlow's 100hz mid bass horn is about the size of a proper box for either 1 or 2 Altec 15's. Then perhaps a tapped horn to cover 20hz to 8o or 100hz. Either way you go the Altec drivers are excellent.
The horns pictured in the first post look very close to the Cessaro Beta speaker system. The mid bass horn is about 1 meter in diameter. I would not do the sub horn system, also in the picture, unless you have a large room.
Supravox makes some excellent drivers ( I have Supraxox 215-2000 8" field coil drivers ) but would go with Altec because they are made here, just in case you run into a problem.
I don't know what Lynn wound up using for his mid bass system-- the Ariel thread is WAY long.
John Inlow's 100hz mid bass horn is about the size of a proper box for either 1 or 2 Altec 15's. Then perhaps a tapped horn to cover 20hz to 8o or 100hz. Either way you go the Altec drivers are excellent.
Inlow's 100 hz horn may work in my current room. After we move I was looking to do something closer to Cessaro Gamma. Lynn is using GPA 416 for bass/lower mid. I've heard the Radian 745 in JMLC 270 and I greatly prefer the TAD which sounds more tonally natural with unamplified music.
jpak,
Making a " copy " of the Cessaro Gamma's is exactly what I and doing. Cessaro uses all spec. matched TAD drivers for his speaker systems. My friend is the Cessaro importer and I have talked with Ralph ( Cessaro ) several times at the audio shows. If there were better drivers available, Ralph would be using them.
Now here is a tip--get yourself a pair of TAD ET703 tweeters if at all possible !!!!
I had the big Raven tweeters, mid size RAAl tweeters and I have the big Sequerra T1 mk4 tweeters and Fostex T500ammk2 and all are excellent--but none will match up better with the other TAD drivers-- nor have the efficiency, sound of the ET703. I did try !!!
the Tad tweeters will not be made available to the public-- read between the lines as to why.
Making a " copy " of the Cessaro Gamma's is exactly what I and doing. Cessaro uses all spec. matched TAD drivers for his speaker systems. My friend is the Cessaro importer and I have talked with Ralph ( Cessaro ) several times at the audio shows. If there were better drivers available, Ralph would be using them.
Now here is a tip--get yourself a pair of TAD ET703 tweeters if at all possible !!!!
I had the big Raven tweeters, mid size RAAl tweeters and I have the big Sequerra T1 mk4 tweeters and Fostex T500ammk2 and all are excellent--but none will match up better with the other TAD drivers-- nor have the efficiency, sound of the ET703. I did try !!!
the Tad tweeters will not be made available to the public-- read between the lines as to why.
kodomo,
The Fostex t500amk2 is the"best" commercially available tweeter for use in a horn system ---save for some exotic horn tweeters, that I have not listened to IMHO. My statement above was geared towards people who are using TAD 4001 - 2001 drivers trying to replicate the sound of the large Cessaro speaker systems.
The difference in sound between the Fostex t500amk2 and the TAD ET703 is only heard by DIRECT comparison-- and the differences are very minor but noticeable. My opinion is the difference in sound comes down to different diaphragm materials--magnesium v beryllium.
The Fostex t500amk2 is the"best" commercially available tweeter for use in a horn system ---save for some exotic horn tweeters, that I have not listened to IMHO. My statement above was geared towards people who are using TAD 4001 - 2001 drivers trying to replicate the sound of the large Cessaro speaker systems.
The difference in sound between the Fostex t500amk2 and the TAD ET703 is only heard by DIRECT comparison-- and the differences are very minor but noticeable. My opinion is the difference in sound comes down to different diaphragm materials--magnesium v beryllium.
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