I have my modified klipschorn system that I am happy with but I am looking forward to having a full range 5 way (very little compromise) horn speaker 
This is just a fantasy now, but as it would cost a lot, I thought why not plan ahead as much as possible. Here is my initial sketch and thoughts on it. It's been obviously inspired by Cessaro speakers. Not a specific model but something in between their Gamma, Beta and Beethoven...
20hz - 60hz - Tapped Horn with 15" driver, this tapped horn will also be the structure that carries the tractrix horns and the bullet tweeter.
60hz - 160hz - 3 of Speakerplans HD15 with 15" drivers. I am very concerned about this range and have little real experience, I want it to be as clear and as high quality as possible. My candidate was HD15's with good quality 15" drivers.
160hz - 600hz - somehting close to 110hz Tractrix horn with special 11" mouth (I need suggestions here) with Supravox 285-2000 (the one cessaro uses in midbass) This is a very important range so I wanted the best quality driver possible in this range. Centre of this channel is about 56cms from the ground.I heard good stuff about Fane 8m but it is out of production and I don't want to deal with that.
600hz - 8000hz - 200hz autotech Tractrix horn with 1" Tad 2001. Updated to 2" TAD 4001 I heard and really like this driver better than my BMS 4592nd-mids. Centre of this channel is 141 cm's from the ground, it may be tilted downwards a little. I can have an adjustment system there.
8000hz - 35.000hz - Fostex t500amkII bullet supertweeter. Centre of this channel is about 101 cm's from the ground. Good height, about ear height when sitting.
I will be utilising a 2 in 10 out active crossover system, and tune the speaker with measurements. I have umik-1 mic coming up, have multichannel external sound-card and rew.
What do you think of this fantasy? Do you think it is worth investing in? Does anyone have recommendations or things I got wrong... I don't have a time limit and I most probably will be spending a lot of my hard earned money on this dream!
This is just a fantasy now, but as it would cost a lot, I thought why not plan ahead as much as possible. Here is my initial sketch and thoughts on it. It's been obviously inspired by Cessaro speakers. Not a specific model but something in between their Gamma, Beta and Beethoven...
20hz - 60hz - Tapped Horn with 15" driver, this tapped horn will also be the structure that carries the tractrix horns and the bullet tweeter.
60hz - 160hz - 3 of Speakerplans HD15 with 15" drivers. I am very concerned about this range and have little real experience, I want it to be as clear and as high quality as possible. My candidate was HD15's with good quality 15" drivers.
160hz - 600hz - somehting close to 110hz Tractrix horn with special 11" mouth (I need suggestions here) with Supravox 285-2000 (the one cessaro uses in midbass) This is a very important range so I wanted the best quality driver possible in this range. Centre of this channel is about 56cms from the ground.I heard good stuff about Fane 8m but it is out of production and I don't want to deal with that.
600hz - 8000hz - 200hz autotech Tractrix horn with 1" Tad 2001. Updated to 2" TAD 4001 I heard and really like this driver better than my BMS 4592nd-mids. Centre of this channel is 141 cm's from the ground, it may be tilted downwards a little. I can have an adjustment system there.
8000hz - 35.000hz - Fostex t500amkII bullet supertweeter. Centre of this channel is about 101 cm's from the ground. Good height, about ear height when sitting.
I will be utilising a 2 in 10 out active crossover system, and tune the speaker with measurements. I have umik-1 mic coming up, have multichannel external sound-card and rew.
What do you think of this fantasy? Do you think it is worth investing in? Does anyone have recommendations or things I got wrong... I don't have a time limit and I most probably will be spending a lot of my hard earned money on this dream!
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Its a nice looking setup, but I think you have to reconcider the Tractrix 200 and the range for TAD2001.
Maybe you are better off with a midrange horn playing from 250/300-2000? But most likely this solution would require a mid bass that can be crossed higher than HD15
Look at this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/251665-stargate-6-horn-system.html
The JBL CMCD system (JBL2169H with Phasing plug) would do the job nicely in a 110hz tractrix with 4" throat. You can then cross over to the TAD2001 in a Traxtrix 600 or 1000.
Maybe you are better off with a midrange horn playing from 250/300-2000? But most likely this solution would require a mid bass that can be crossed higher than HD15
Look at this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/251665-stargate-6-horn-system.html
The JBL CMCD system (JBL2169H with Phasing plug) would do the job nicely in a 110hz tractrix with 4" throat. You can then cross over to the TAD2001 in a Traxtrix 600 or 1000.
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If I can not have the spherical horns shallower, I may need to change the setup like this. However, if it is setup like this, I can not physically align the supertweeter, it would be too recessed and the waves would be hitting the lower and upper midbass horns. So it seems digital time alignment will be mandatory. This means I will need to incorporate a very high quality digital crossover with the best possible dacs.
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kodomo,
You picked one of the finest speakers on the planet IMHO to emulate. My friend is the U.S.A. importer of Cessaro speakers and have heard the List and Chopin many times. I have spoken to Ralf ( Cessaro owner ) several times at audio shows about speaker design as a friend so I will not talk about his "secrets' but share some of his opinions.
1. Stay away from DSP except for subwoofers ( below 60hz. ). The mid bass and up can be easily handled with passive crossovers which sounds much better by direct comparison.
2. The TAD ET703 is a better tweeter then the Fostex T500amk2 by direct comparison in his speaker systems. The tweeter is very expensive and very hard to find but worth it ( I use the TAD ) and also have the Fostex T500amk2 which is also excellent but not as good a match when used with the other Tad drivers.
The Gamma speaker system uses the tweeter above 15k so the wavelength is less than 25mm wide so as long as you can see the tweeter I would not worry about reflections from the other waveguides.
Ralf has the best testing and measuring equipment available and has tested just about every high end driver out there so when he talks about speakers and speaker design-- I just sit down an listen. Good luck on your project.
You picked one of the finest speakers on the planet IMHO to emulate. My friend is the U.S.A. importer of Cessaro speakers and have heard the List and Chopin many times. I have spoken to Ralf ( Cessaro owner ) several times at audio shows about speaker design as a friend so I will not talk about his "secrets' but share some of his opinions.
1. Stay away from DSP except for subwoofers ( below 60hz. ). The mid bass and up can be easily handled with passive crossovers which sounds much better by direct comparison.
2. The TAD ET703 is a better tweeter then the Fostex T500amk2 by direct comparison in his speaker systems. The tweeter is very expensive and very hard to find but worth it ( I use the TAD ) and also have the Fostex T500amk2 which is also excellent but not as good a match when used with the other Tad drivers.
The Gamma speaker system uses the tweeter above 15k so the wavelength is less than 25mm wide so as long as you can see the tweeter I would not worry about reflections from the other waveguides.
Ralf has the best testing and measuring equipment available and has tested just about every high end driver out there so when he talks about speakers and speaker design-- I just sit down an listen. Good luck on your project.
Wow cool hints! Thank you very much. Actually, I will try emulating Beta 1's low mid and midrange so why not get the tweeters too! I am trying to find the horn profiles they used, it says spherical. I know their throat sizes, their opening sizes. I don't know about the depth and the flare. What I know is as such;
Low-Mid - 28cm throat - 93cm opening spherical horn - Supravox 285-2000 alnico
Midrange - 2" throat - 54cm opening spherical horn - (TAD 4001 modified)
Treble - 9 cm opening spherical horn - Tad ET-703
So I will need to cross the tweeters really high to get them aligned without reflections to bother. This is a good hint. I will try this.
Then I can add 20hz - 60hz Tapped sub and 60hz-160hz scoops for deep bass.
For crossovers, my plan is I measuring with my sound card. I have a music production studio, so have external sound cards with multiple outputs. I can emulate active crossovers and try finding the desirable crossover points and slopes as well as necessary attenuation values. Then I can build passive crossovers with those settings. I can use the dsp for deep bass alignment, like they did.
hotattoo, Do you know their crossover points and slopes?
Low-Mid - 28cm throat - 93cm opening spherical horn - Supravox 285-2000 alnico
Midrange - 2" throat - 54cm opening spherical horn - (TAD 4001 modified)
Treble - 9 cm opening spherical horn - Tad ET-703
So I will need to cross the tweeters really high to get them aligned without reflections to bother. This is a good hint. I will try this.
Then I can add 20hz - 60hz Tapped sub and 60hz-160hz scoops for deep bass.
For crossovers, my plan is I measuring with my sound card. I have a music production studio, so have external sound cards with multiple outputs. I can emulate active crossovers and try finding the desirable crossover points and slopes as well as necessary attenuation values. Then I can build passive crossovers with those settings. I can use the dsp for deep bass alignment, like they did.
hotattoo, Do you know their crossover points and slopes?
kodomo,
I know the tweeter is 6db slope but the others are 6db or 12db. The beauty of the Tad drivers is they have a very flat frequency and impedance curves so you overlap the drivers at various crossover points using gentle slopes.
Do a search on Dr. Bruce Edgar's Titan speaker system and see his design. He also does not recommend DSP except for subwoofers. The key to Cessaro and Dr. Bruce's speakers is a front loaded mid bass horn. Dr. Bruce's mid bass horn is too small IMHO and not robust enough while Cessaro's horns are made with a very expensive mold with special polymer filling and VERY heavy ( 75kg for midrange horn ) and more then twice that for the mid bass horn. Cessaro's horns are SOTA and if there was a better way of making horns, Ralf would do it.
I know the tweeter is 6db slope but the others are 6db or 12db. The beauty of the Tad drivers is they have a very flat frequency and impedance curves so you overlap the drivers at various crossover points using gentle slopes.
Do a search on Dr. Bruce Edgar's Titan speaker system and see his design. He also does not recommend DSP except for subwoofers. The key to Cessaro and Dr. Bruce's speakers is a front loaded mid bass horn. Dr. Bruce's mid bass horn is too small IMHO and not robust enough while Cessaro's horns are made with a very expensive mold with special polymer filling and VERY heavy ( 75kg for midrange horn ) and more then twice that for the mid bass horn. Cessaro's horns are SOTA and if there was a better way of making horns, Ralf would do it.
i have gone all this through:
AV Eikon : finished - Audio Voice Acoustics
i settled with Beyma 12p80nd, and Beyma TPL150, and bass towers below 50hz. and have not changed my setup anymore. I am not looking back to horns....
AV Eikon : finished - Audio Voice Acoustics
i settled with Beyma 12p80nd, and Beyma TPL150, and bass towers below 50hz. and have not changed my setup anymore. I am not looking back to horns....
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Cut and paste speaker design:
1) Tweeter: If precise time, phase and XYZ position are not critical because of short wavelengths, then side mounting at the front edge of the large horn allows better ear level placement options
2) Multi-Woofer Deep Bass: Replace the Tapped Horn with three or four sealed box 18” woofers positioned around the room to reduce bass modes, plus flat SPL from digital equalization.
1) Tweeter: If precise time, phase and XYZ position are not critical because of short wavelengths, then side mounting at the front edge of the large horn allows better ear level placement options
2) Multi-Woofer Deep Bass: Replace the Tapped Horn with three or four sealed box 18” woofers positioned around the room to reduce bass modes, plus flat SPL from digital equalization.
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For passive analog crossovers, when physical time alignment is impractical, “quasi-optimal” crossovers that can "offset compensate" are worth additional study. LeCleach developed a spreadsheet. For very minor physical offsets, LR4 + LR4 with slight freq shift is popular - spreadsheet on web. Xovers are based upon acoustic slopes. A few passive filter tweeks are common to remove funky SPL peaks.
3rd order Butterworth Low Pass, -3dB @ Fx*0.87 (+)
3rd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.15 (-)
Offset = 0.22*c/Fx
4th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx (+)
3rd order Bessel High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.4 (-)
Offset = 0.29*c/Fx
4th ordrer Butt Low Pass, -3dB @ Fx* 0,93 (+)
4th order L-R High Pass, -6dB @ Fx* 0,93 (-)
Offset = 0,31*c/Fx
6th order Bessel Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx*1.25 (+)
2nd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.3 (-)
Offset = 0.40*c/Fx
6th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 1.06 (+)
3rd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx* 1,13 (-)
Offset = 0.445 c/Fx
6th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 1.07 (+)
4th order L-R High Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 0.92 (-)
Offset = 0.465 c/Fx
3rd order Butterworth Low Pass, -3dB @ Fx*0.87 (+)
3rd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.15 (-)
Offset = 0.22*c/Fx
4th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx (+)
3rd order Bessel High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.4 (-)
Offset = 0.29*c/Fx
4th ordrer Butt Low Pass, -3dB @ Fx* 0,93 (+)
4th order L-R High Pass, -6dB @ Fx* 0,93 (-)
Offset = 0,31*c/Fx
6th order Bessel Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx*1.25 (+)
2nd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx*1.3 (-)
Offset = 0.40*c/Fx
6th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 1.06 (+)
3rd order Butterworth High Pass, -3dB @ Fx* 1,13 (-)
Offset = 0.445 c/Fx
6th order L-R Low Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 1.07 (+)
4th order L-R High Pass, -6dB @ Fx * 0.92 (-)
Offset = 0.465 c/Fx
Thank you all for the input!
@angeloitacare
I will be reading through your topic. Great info all around. Thanks a lot for sharing the experience. How do you like the Line Magnetic drivers. I bought their LM-219ia amp, with WE tubes and complete aluminium cover. It arrived over two months ago and I am still trying to get it out of customs in Turkey!!!
@hotattoo
I know about inlows site. I have another project idea with some of his designs. The 100hz midbass with my volti fc260 horn plus a supertweeter. This can be another topic
@dave123
Are you talking about Arash maybe? I know him a little through klipsch forums. He has a new speaker project going on called "Anahita" Like an advanced La Scala!
@linesource
Sealed bass is good, and I have a sealed klipsch subwoofer and in a few weeks I will have a 20hz tapped horn, we are going to cut the pieces in cnc this weekend if I can manage my working schedule. I will be listening them a lot. I am hoping to get a Rel subwoofer from a friend to have some head to head listening too.
For the tweeter, I never passed over 10khz so I don't know. I will try that first. In my setup I cross them around 6khz and it matters quite a bit if they are aligned on top or on the side. I have made numerous blind tests and always could tell if it is off axis and I don't prefer it. That's why I did this with my modified Klipschorns.
@angeloitacare
I will be reading through your topic. Great info all around. Thanks a lot for sharing the experience. How do you like the Line Magnetic drivers. I bought their LM-219ia amp, with WE tubes and complete aluminium cover. It arrived over two months ago and I am still trying to get it out of customs in Turkey!!!
@hotattoo
I know about inlows site. I have another project idea with some of his designs. The 100hz midbass with my volti fc260 horn plus a supertweeter. This can be another topic
@dave123
Are you talking about Arash maybe? I know him a little through klipsch forums. He has a new speaker project going on called "Anahita" Like an advanced La Scala!
@linesource
Sealed bass is good, and I have a sealed klipsch subwoofer and in a few weeks I will have a 20hz tapped horn, we are going to cut the pieces in cnc this weekend if I can manage my working schedule. I will be listening them a lot. I am hoping to get a Rel subwoofer from a friend to have some head to head listening too.
For the tweeter, I never passed over 10khz so I don't know. I will try that first. In my setup I cross them around 6khz and it matters quite a bit if they are aligned on top or on the side. I have made numerous blind tests and always could tell if it is off axis and I don't prefer it. That's why I did this with my modified Klipschorns.
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Yes, lots of good info on John's site.
Do you know where the Cessaro crosses the TD4001 with the Supravox low mid driver?
Does the Cessaro use its own solid state amp for the Supravox?
jpak,
I don't know for sure of the exact crossover frequency between the 4001 and the Supravox but is between 400hz to 500hz. All the drivers are matched and the exact crossover point is based on the individual pair of speakers measured parameters.
Ralf is a strong believer in using one good amp to power the mid bass on up. The last I heard he is working on custom mono 211 amps for power, however at 108+ db one watt sensitivity, almost any SET amps will work well.
I don't know for sure of the exact crossover frequency between the 4001 and the Supravox but is between 400hz to 500hz. All the drivers are matched and the exact crossover point is based on the individual pair of speakers measured parameters.
Ralf is a strong believer in using one good amp to power the mid bass on up. The last I heard he is working on custom mono 211 amps for power, however at 108+ db one watt sensitivity, almost any SET amps will work well.
That is quite low for the TD4001, I guess differences in their modified version comes into play?
One of the stumbling blocks I've encountered is there is not much information in terms or measurements or technical detail with this level of drivers. So it is mostly reading and trying to compile bits and pieces of information to make an educated decision with horn profiles, etc.
I am planning to use SET amps from midbass on up. Actively crossed over folded horn subs with a solid state amp.
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