Kodomo
i use the 12p80nd in a 90l closed cabinet. Direct radiating. I don't know why you would like to use the supravox in a horn. I have never heard it, but i can imagine that it must sound excellent as direct radiating driver, and you can go up to 2khz with ease. The setback is that it has probably not good low extension, so i would probably try cross it at max. 100hz.
It is used it in all upper bass horns of Cessaro's. Also some German horn company was using it in their flagship horn speakers. It sims beautifully as well.
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supravox 285-2000 cf110tractrix horn sims
Here are the sims of Supravox 285-2000 on 110cf autotech tractrix horn with a small back chamber. Maybe I won't need a crossover/filter on my upperbass horns at all!
For the upper part of my midrange, the natural roll off of the 200hz tractrix horn and the BMS compression driver seems to be enough to cross around 6400hz. For the lower part (600hz ish) I may get away with an inductor. However I will need to pad down. Maybe a fostex attenuator could work here, or maybe a better match then BMS 4592nd-mid?
For the tweeters it seems one 68mF would do the job.
It would be great if I would be able to get my system together with few components in the crossover.
Here are the sims of Supravox 285-2000 on 110cf autotech tractrix horn with a small back chamber. Maybe I won't need a crossover/filter on my upperbass horns at all!
For the upper part of my midrange, the natural roll off of the 200hz tractrix horn and the BMS compression driver seems to be enough to cross around 6400hz. For the lower part (600hz ish) I may get away with an inductor. However I will need to pad down. Maybe a fostex attenuator could work here, or maybe a better match then BMS 4592nd-mid?
For the tweeters it seems one 68mF would do the job.
It would be great if I would be able to get my system together with few components in the crossover.
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I just went ahead and bought myself a pair of Radian 850pb's. I will try to compare these to my BMS 4592nd-mid 16ohms. If this works out, I will have a complete set of Volti upgraded Klispchorns in my hands which I can sell (or keep as rear speakers!)
So now the system looks like it is going to be something like this:
20hz-100hz - Tapped horn - Eminence 4015lf (already have)
100hz - 600hz - cf110 Tractrix autotech - Supravox 285-2000 alnico (ordered)
600hz - ? - cf200 Tractrix autotech - Radian 850pb (ordered)
? - 45khz - Fostex t500amkII (already have)
Now thinking of ordering the Fostex rt100 attenuators for midrange padding.
So now the system looks like it is going to be something like this:
20hz-100hz - Tapped horn - Eminence 4015lf (already have)
100hz - 600hz - cf110 Tractrix autotech - Supravox 285-2000 alnico (ordered)
600hz - ? - cf200 Tractrix autotech - Radian 850pb (ordered)
? - 45khz - Fostex t500amkII (already have)
Now thinking of ordering the Fostex rt100 attenuators for midrange padding.
what is the covering range of 12P80nd you are using in 90l closed cabinet? I don't think it will go down to 50hz is that right? how are you crossing it with tpl-150h?
have you seen V2 version of 12P80nd? what is your idea?
there are my measurements at the other thread 12p80nd/tpl150. i cross at 1,6khz. It goes flat down to 50hz. Did not know about v2. Will check.
thanks Angelo
have you ever wondered if you need a super tweeter over TPL-150H?
what cabinet (volume) do you suggest to use 12p80nd crossed from 80hz? the same 90l?
I do not miss any treble. The 90l works just fine. If you want to cross at 80hz, you can maybe make it even a littlebit smaller.
here the measurements.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231551-beyma-12p80nd-tpl-150-a-12.html
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Some more news! I couldn't stop myself and ordered a pair of JMLC 1000's with 1" throats 🙂 What do you guys think of Radian 475bepb (be versions) for 2400hz to 9600hz.
Also I have been working on reactance annulling for the 110 tractrix horn. I have calculated that for the Supravox drivers back chamber to have a resonant frequency 110hz, it has to have a volume of 11 litres (110,586hz) Now, I estimated supravox would take around 2.5 litres of space. So I will build a sealed box of 30cmx32cmx15cm. Is this right? It looks like it works in hornresp as well.
Also I have been working on reactance annulling for the 110 tractrix horn. I have calculated that for the Supravox drivers back chamber to have a resonant frequency 110hz, it has to have a volume of 11 litres (110,586hz) Now, I estimated supravox would take around 2.5 litres of space. So I will build a sealed box of 30cmx32cmx15cm. Is this right? It looks like it works in hornresp as well.
This will not reactance annul it, you must maximally flatten its impedance, which shifts its usable F3, etc., BW upward a considerable amount from the horn's 1/4 WL cutoff [Fp], though in a HIFI app it often negates the need for an XO as well as presenting a benign load to a high output impedance amp.
GM
GM I have been trying to understand reactance annuling. I guess I haven't understood it then. I though one should get the resonant frequency of the backchamber to the cutoff of the horn.
You are suggesting that I should aim for higher frequencies right, like 130-140hz. I guess than building what I have sketched out and then adding solid blocks piece by piece into the chamber while measuring along the way would be the way to go...
Oh, here is another sketch of the horn
You are suggesting that I should aim for higher frequencies right, like 130-140hz. I guess than building what I have sketched out and then adding solid blocks piece by piece into the chamber while measuring along the way would be the way to go...
Oh, here is another sketch of the horn
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Right; using the popular DSL Unity/Synergy concept that requires a 250 [Flc] - 1000 [Fhc] Hz mid horn section, it ideally needs to 'ring' at [Fc]: [250 x 1000]^0.5 = 500 Hz, whether it's the driver's [sealed back] Fs or a lower Fs driver in a separate sealed alignment.
So calculate your horn's Fc based on whatever you or HR chose for Flc, Fhc, then use the simple sealed cab alignment math or software to find the net volume [Vb] required, though IME this often only returns a 'ballpark' figure to start reducing from unless it specs a fairly large net Vb that is much more tolerant of tuning error from the theoretical ideal.
GM
So calculate your horn's Fc based on whatever you or HR chose for Flc, Fhc, then use the simple sealed cab alignment math or software to find the net volume [Vb] required, though IME this often only returns a 'ballpark' figure to start reducing from unless it specs a fairly large net Vb that is much more tolerant of tuning error from the theoretical ideal.
GM
Got it GM!
On another note, I was warned by Autotech for 2:1 compression ratio I chose for upperbass throat. They suggested 2:3 would be better. As far as I can see 2:1 is quite common and does not create any problems, also the hf extension is better. I check with hornresp as well...
ps. here is yet another sketch
On another note, I was warned by Autotech for 2:1 compression ratio I chose for upperbass throat. They suggested 2:3 would be better. As far as I can see 2:1 is quite common and does not create any problems, also the hf extension is better. I check with hornresp as well...
ps. here is yet another sketch
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I have gone with the 2:1 compression. Here is the detail of the throat adapter that will be built by hORNS.pl 🙂 I am in contact with them through Greg at g-point audio and everything is going very smoothly and they are very helpful.
I have found a horn/bandpass hybrid from funktion one which is called f218 mk2 (2x18") that is rated from 25hz to 200hz and f3 is at 45hz. Its good for 900 watts. Looking for a way to integrate it to this system via a suitable amp. Their amps only have line level inputs. I need high level inputs and a crossover on my amp. I have found hypex ds 4.0 but it is rated 400 watts at 4 ohm. Still I think that may be enough at my room. Here is how it looks with the rest of the horns. This means I don't need my tapped horns anymore and my set amp wont need to play anything below 160hz 🙂
I have found a horn/bandpass hybrid from funktion one which is called f218 mk2 (2x18") that is rated from 25hz to 200hz and f3 is at 45hz. Its good for 900 watts. Looking for a way to integrate it to this system via a suitable amp. Their amps only have line level inputs. I need high level inputs and a crossover on my amp. I have found hypex ds 4.0 but it is rated 400 watts at 4 ohm. Still I think that may be enough at my room. Here is how it looks with the rest of the horns. This means I don't need my tapped horns anymore and my set amp wont need to play anything below 160hz 🙂
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Hmm, could they have been expecting users to run it out into direct radiator territory and looking for an easier transition? Jean-Michel (LeCleach) was saying at these frequencies that it can be done, given our sensitivity, and room dominance IIRC.
GM is correct of course, but this is an alternative/compromise that would call for reevaluating the low end methods. I'd rather do this with a LeCleach than a tractrix though.
I use a SET amp for a similar crossover (280) and it does 1W. Very loud too.
Yes, if I go this way. I can have the dedicated amp (hypex 4.0) for f218mk 2. Then the rest of the system will be driven by my LM 219ia SET amp with a passive crossover.
I was going a little crazy and thought why not have two f218mk 2 units, each with a dedicated hypex 🙂 It certainly will be overkill, but I will have less room problems with stereo bass and less distortion! Also, as I drive them up to 160hz, it would be good to have them stereo as there is musical information and even vocals down to that range. As someone who loves listening music that has horns in them (like trombone) it is still an important range for me. I will get a quote for the units and then decide.
Here it is, there is no harm in dreaming!
I was going a little crazy and thought why not have two f218mk 2 units, each with a dedicated hypex 🙂 It certainly will be overkill, but I will have less room problems with stereo bass and less distortion! Also, as I drive them up to 160hz, it would be good to have them stereo as there is musical information and even vocals down to that range. As someone who loves listening music that has horns in them (like trombone) it is still an important range for me. I will get a quote for the units and then decide.
Here it is, there is no harm in dreaming!
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There is something in stereo bass, IMO but it isn't stereo. I prefer not to have a bass unit in the middle of the wall.
I have also found some interesting plans like MTB 246. PA type stuff for bass duties are generally very good.
Have a look at this one http://wizardaudio.hu/hasznos/hangfal tervek/bass/hibrid/MTB 246.jpg
Have a look at this one http://wizardaudio.hu/hasznos/hangfal tervek/bass/hibrid/MTB 246.jpg
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