BSR In the good ole south they say Bull Crap !
Hi all,
Next time I come across a piece of BSR crap for a few pence I might just bye it & give it & this project a proper (I'm using a trashed Lenco) whirl.
I had one as a young teenager, BSR Auto changer fitted into a Danset two valve record player. To get it to play/track, it had to have 1 or 2 'farthings' thats a 1/4 of an old penny balanced on the head of the arm.
Mind you, I did always enjoy the music, which it has to be said seemed to consist of about 40% crackle & pop. These were mostly 45s that I no longer have🙁
If I remember correctly I do have a few LPs from those times that I'm sure were played on that thing, so ill dig them out & see if their still playable.
By the time I was 16, I had a 401 with Acos lustre arm, Quad 33 / 303 + home made Warfdale unit 3s, Also all sadly gone
Transistors have a lot to answer for 😡
jay
Hi all,
Next time I come across a piece of BSR crap for a few pence I might just bye it & give it & this project a proper (I'm using a trashed Lenco) whirl.
I had one as a young teenager, BSR Auto changer fitted into a Danset two valve record player. To get it to play/track, it had to have 1 or 2 'farthings' thats a 1/4 of an old penny balanced on the head of the arm.
Mind you, I did always enjoy the music, which it has to be said seemed to consist of about 40% crackle & pop. These were mostly 45s that I no longer have🙁
If I remember correctly I do have a few LPs from those times that I'm sure were played on that thing, so ill dig them out & see if their still playable.
By the time I was 16, I had a 401 with Acos lustre arm, Quad 33 / 303 + home made Warfdale unit 3s, Also all sadly gone
Transistors have a lot to answer for 😡
jay
Stew,
The one I abused was a re-badged 810, I think, but that probably doesn't matter much. As another JFTHOI, I put a heavy 10" sander backing plate on the platter. The bearing wasn't happy, but the motor and idler didn't even shrug. BSRs will never displace Lencos as sleepers, but that doesn't mean they're unworthy, just unfashionable. It's DIY, after all, which can mean Do - Insane, Idiocy, It's still crap - Yourself. If it doesn't work, that's why god invented trash cans.
If this BSR thing catches on, quick go out and buy a dozen as investments and watch the prices rise.
Got a giggle out of your post heading.
The one I abused was a re-badged 810, I think, but that probably doesn't matter much. As another JFTHOI, I put a heavy 10" sander backing plate on the platter. The bearing wasn't happy, but the motor and idler didn't even shrug. BSRs will never displace Lencos as sleepers, but that doesn't mean they're unworthy, just unfashionable. It's DIY, after all, which can mean Do - Insane, Idiocy, It's still crap - Yourself. If it doesn't work, that's why god invented trash cans.
If this BSR thing catches on, quick go out and buy a dozen as investments and watch the prices rise.
Got a giggle out of your post heading.
Doug I obviously have to ask for pics 🙂
The platter is poor, its a cut down size and will not be part of my final design. I need to check if its an idler or a belt driven. It's been a while since I put it in the corner of the shed and it came to me as a throw away. It is brand new having never been fitted in a plinth and when it came to me it still had its original price tag, all of £8 something or other. High end stuff 🙂 As I said the ultimate challenge!
The platter is poor, its a cut down size and will not be part of my final design. I need to check if its an idler or a belt driven. It's been a while since I put it in the corner of the shed and it came to me as a throw away. It is brand new having never been fitted in a plinth and when it came to me it still had its original price tag, all of £8 something or other. High end stuff 🙂 As I said the ultimate challenge!
ST,
Here are the photos. The kludged spindle is from a cheap Sony, I believe. The BSR has a conveniently recessed center so I cut out the center of the Sony platter and fitted it into the BSR with a masonite spacer and a thin foam pad that let me do adjustments in two planes so the platter runs true and flat. I cut out the Sony spindle leaving enough to mount it to the bottom of the BSR. I centered if by taking careful note of where the original BSR spindle was mounted. Sort of by guess and by golly, but it worked. As I was taking the photos I found the noise I thought was the spindle bearing was actually platter rub that resulted from insufficient support under the bearing. A slight push upward ended the noise so even with added weight, the bearing was fine.
Damn, I was all set to trash an orphan project, but now I'm going to have to keep it.
Stew,
I apologize for what looks like a highjack. I just wanted to counter the tone of a previous poster who then graciously countered his own post.
Here are the photos. The kludged spindle is from a cheap Sony, I believe. The BSR has a conveniently recessed center so I cut out the center of the Sony platter and fitted it into the BSR with a masonite spacer and a thin foam pad that let me do adjustments in two planes so the platter runs true and flat. I cut out the Sony spindle leaving enough to mount it to the bottom of the BSR. I centered if by taking careful note of where the original BSR spindle was mounted. Sort of by guess and by golly, but it worked. As I was taking the photos I found the noise I thought was the spindle bearing was actually platter rub that resulted from insufficient support under the bearing. A slight push upward ended the noise so even with added weight, the bearing was fine.
Damn, I was all set to trash an orphan project, but now I'm going to have to keep it.
Stew,
I apologize for what looks like a highjack. I just wanted to counter the tone of a previous poster who then graciously countered his own post.
Attachments
again, DIY really means Do It Myself. Begs the question, why do you need to knock my approach to the problem? Who the **** are you anyway?
phivates,
I'm not quite sure who provoked your response, but if anything in my posts felt like a sharp stick, I apologize.
I'm not quite sure who provoked your response, but if anything in my posts felt like a sharp stick, I apologize.
nostalgia
While we are at it Let me recall a Philips GA 212 that I enjoyed for many years. The neatest part of it was the arm that rode on glass beads strung on a piece of music wire. I forget what the horizontal bearing was.
BillG
While we are at it Let me recall a Philips GA 212 that I enjoyed for many years. The neatest part of it was the arm that rode on glass beads strung on a piece of music wire. I forget what the horizontal bearing was.
BillG
Hi,
FWIW : I one bought a quite nice Sonab suspended subchassis turntable
very cheap, got it home and the motor was making horrible noises.
The pulley had been knocked, offsetting the spindle. I drilled out
the rivets and removed the bits that hold it up, leaving just
the centring bushes in the motor. Put it back together and
then using a correct length spacer on the bottom ran the
domed end of the spindle on a hard plastic thrustpad.
Theoretically you don't need to strip the the motor.
Tapping it will move the vertical thrust rings out of
the way so you can add the external thrustpad.
I'm sure I've seen thrustpad kits for motors somewhere.
Not that the type of turntable likely to be the basis of
this thread is likely to have a typical belt drive motor.
rgds, sreten.
FWIW : I one bought a quite nice Sonab suspended subchassis turntable
very cheap, got it home and the motor was making horrible noises.
The pulley had been knocked, offsetting the spindle. I drilled out
the rivets and removed the bits that hold it up, leaving just
the centring bushes in the motor. Put it back together and
then using a correct length spacer on the bottom ran the
domed end of the spindle on a hard plastic thrustpad.
Theoretically you don't need to strip the the motor.
Tapping it will move the vertical thrust rings out of
the way so you can add the external thrustpad.
I'm sure I've seen thrustpad kits for motors somewhere.
Not that the type of turntable likely to be the basis of
this thread is likely to have a typical belt drive motor.
rgds, sreten.
Well the strip down has begone. I'll stick some picks up later but for now I can say that the old BSR is an idler drive and had a bit of noise when I stuck a plug on it and fired it up. I am however pleased to say that it runs nicely on all four speeds from 16 to 78's
This is what I've started with:
The auto changer and return mechanism isn't required so most of the gubbins underneath has been removed. I'm now left with:
The gaps where the tonearm setup and the size selector were housed will need to be sorted out. I'll need to decide if I'll cover it or fill it with car filler. The base needs to be smoothed down and painted. The two dials will remain although the on/off dial now only has two options.
Plugged it back in and, having taken out all the gubbins, has left it running almost silent 🙂 just the very faintest, and you have to have your ear right up close to hear it, hum from the motor. All speeds run correctly and change as they should. This little pile of shhhh... rubbish is already starting to throw out some pleasant surprises. 😀
Next up will be sorting out a platter, a plinth for the base to fit into, sorting out the base plate and a long extension so that my 24" tonearm can be fitted 😉
The auto changer and return mechanism isn't required so most of the gubbins underneath has been removed. I'm now left with:
The gaps where the tonearm setup and the size selector were housed will need to be sorted out. I'll need to decide if I'll cover it or fill it with car filler. The base needs to be smoothed down and painted. The two dials will remain although the on/off dial now only has two options.
Plugged it back in and, having taken out all the gubbins, has left it running almost silent 🙂 just the very faintest, and you have to have your ear right up close to hear it, hum from the motor. All speeds run correctly and change as they should. This little pile of shhhh... rubbish is already starting to throw out some pleasant surprises. 😀
Next up will be sorting out a platter, a plinth for the base to fit into, sorting out the base plate and a long extension so that my 24" tonearm can be fitted 😉
phivates and Squiffy ...
As relating to sreten? If the case, just carry on. I'll try to address any further issues with sreten out of the forum if need be. I promise not to knock anybody's approach. If I do, just remind me 😉.
Squiffy: You're moving pretty fast. The old BSR actually looks to a pretty reasonable piece. I suspect that arm must have been the worst of it (and all the mechanicals as per the usual changer bits).
The Dual is dead (well not really but THe complete idler/pitch control will need to be replaced. Hans has kindly offered to send me the parts. Until then I will start to work on the Lab60.
Now might be a good time to discuss a method for creating an accurate plinth template for any turntable.
I am writing a document to give further details on how to make a foam plug. The foam plug can then be used as a model of the cut out (in 3D) required to fit the turntable to a plinth. Then all that must be done is generate a diagram.
As relating to sreten? If the case, just carry on. I'll try to address any further issues with sreten out of the forum if need be. I promise not to knock anybody's approach. If I do, just remind me 😉.
Squiffy: You're moving pretty fast. The old BSR actually looks to a pretty reasonable piece. I suspect that arm must have been the worst of it (and all the mechanicals as per the usual changer bits).
The Dual is dead (well not really but THe complete idler/pitch control will need to be replaced. Hans has kindly offered to send me the parts. Until then I will start to work on the Lab60.
Now might be a good time to discuss a method for creating an accurate plinth template for any turntable.
I am writing a document to give further details on how to make a foam plug. The foam plug can then be used as a model of the cut out (in 3D) required to fit the turntable to a plinth. Then all that must be done is generate a diagram.
Stew,
I was not sure if this thread was dedicated to rebuilding a existing turntable or open to building from scratch. I have some ideas I would like to run by you but did not want to jack your thread if it was inappropriate. I am new to analog and welcome any criticism.
Bill
I was not sure if this thread was dedicated to rebuilding a existing turntable or open to building from scratch. I have some ideas I would like to run by you but did not want to jack your thread if it was inappropriate. I am new to analog and welcome any criticism.
Bill
Not really Stew, its been a waiting project for some time and the thread has encouraged me to dig it out and have a look at what I had. It's been a wet day in Squiffyville so having grabbed a couple of screwdrivers and me trusty adjustable mini wrench I started the dismantle in the front room (way to chilly down the shed). It needs a good de-grease and then re-grease.
The plinth template discussion is eagerly awaited 🙂 The gap at the edge of the base plate is not very wide in places so will not give a great margin for error. I'm also thinking about a sprung plate within the plinth which would then leave the plate sitting flush with the plinth top.
Idea for the plinth is to have it long and thin. This would then allow a 9 or 10 inch arm on one side with a longer 12, 14 or even longer arm coming in down the long side. Also the extra space would allow for some kind of switching phono setup to plug both arms in then onto the amp.
Plinth design and material is another awaited discussion. Layered ply, solid wood, box type, etc etc. I have my eye on a large kitchen chopping board. Lovely looking but hard to work with the rudimentary tools that I have. I believe MDF is not great for plinths so staying away from that. Double layer 'skeleton' style is looking very appealing though I know it's not your own personal choice for your project.
Colour is another decision to make. I have been thinking maybe a cream to replicate the old Garrards. I loved the look of the cream Garrard in the 'Big ol Bush'. Black is a little too obvious and personally I think would not look great in a wooden plinth.
The plinth template discussion is eagerly awaited 🙂 The gap at the edge of the base plate is not very wide in places so will not give a great margin for error. I'm also thinking about a sprung plate within the plinth which would then leave the plate sitting flush with the plinth top.
Idea for the plinth is to have it long and thin. This would then allow a 9 or 10 inch arm on one side with a longer 12, 14 or even longer arm coming in down the long side. Also the extra space would allow for some kind of switching phono setup to plug both arms in then onto the amp.
Plinth design and material is another awaited discussion. Layered ply, solid wood, box type, etc etc. I have my eye on a large kitchen chopping board. Lovely looking but hard to work with the rudimentary tools that I have. I believe MDF is not great for plinths so staying away from that. Double layer 'skeleton' style is looking very appealing though I know it's not your own personal choice for your project.
Colour is another decision to make. I have been thinking maybe a cream to replicate the old Garrards. I loved the look of the cream Garrard in the 'Big ol Bush'. Black is a little too obvious and personally I think would not look great in a wooden plinth.
Hi Bill, I think the thread is to have a number of projects running along side each other with Stews being the project to give his ideas, ideals and designs on how to build a low cost but good audio quality turntable from an existing old or poor quality start point. He will no doubt confirm this but I'm sure running your project through the thread, inputting your ideas would be most welcome. If you haven't already done so have a read through the 219 thread and see how that progresses. Lots of ideas and projects based on Stews original idea.
Well I will get to my query but first a little background. The project started off with a Terries bearing I purchased a few years back. Chris mentioned he liked phenolic board due to its deadness for a platter but had little success in bonding it. I located a vinyl-ized Cyanoacrylate made by locktite, this bonded quite well and I was not able to break it apart with a ten pound sledge. So I made a platter of 2 1" disks and 2 1/2' disks. I bore 12 chambers and filled them with lead. I intend to turn a hardwood sleeve to finish it. I also purchases and built Algar's Mark Kelly controller and a maxtor motor with a cast iron pod. So I am committed to high mass platter with a belt or string drive.
Now the point of my inquiry is the plinth, what I am considering is a three legged affair made from 2 1" pieces of slate with a 1/2 aluminum center section cut by water jet. The aluminum center section tied to the feet with the lower piece of slate attached to the platter bearing and the tone arm to the upper. I was planning on putting some O ring groves in the aluminum plate above and below the feet to isolate it from the slate pieces. Does this seem reasonable ?
Your opinions appreciated.
Bill
Now the point of my inquiry is the plinth, what I am considering is a three legged affair made from 2 1" pieces of slate with a 1/2 aluminum center section cut by water jet. The aluminum center section tied to the feet with the lower piece of slate attached to the platter bearing and the tone arm to the upper. I was planning on putting some O ring groves in the aluminum plate above and below the feet to isolate it from the slate pieces. Does this seem reasonable ?
Your opinions appreciated.
Bill
Hi,
There are no issues to be addressed outside of the forum.
If you bite off more than you can chew the result is inevitable.
This is going to end up one of those long rambling threads
that never really gets anywhere, its far too open ended.
rgds, sreten.
Why should I discuss details off line when every man and his
dog can fill this this thread with whatever opinions they have ?
The idea you can come to any sensible consensus seems
far fetched to me, design by committee is always awful.
There are no issues to be addressed outside of the forum.
If you bite off more than you can chew the result is inevitable.
This is going to end up one of those long rambling threads
that never really gets anywhere, its far too open ended.
rgds, sreten.
Why should I discuss details off line when every man and his
dog can fill this this thread with whatever opinions they have ?
The idea you can come to any sensible consensus seems
far fetched to me, design by committee is always awful.
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My honest opinion would be the investment you have in your parts take this way out of the low cost diy project that this thread was meant to encompass. Your Teres bearing, for example, even if purchased through the forums group buy, would be ooo several hundred bucks more than I intend to invest into my feeble attempt. Damn your Loctite Black Max 380 glue would probably cost more than my BSR when it was first bought back in the seventies.
The 'new to analog' comment doesn't really ring true bearing in mind you've been active on the forum for some years, have built various projects and have some considerable knowledge on the subject.
So I guess the question asked is something you have decided to raise to either test Stew or to make a point that top level tables have to have top level components, and that, like Sreten, you feel the building of a DIY project is something that should only be the privilege and right of engineers or those that can invest thousands into buying top price components.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe your question is a genuine question because despite working on your project for some five or six years you just haven't managed to work out the best solution but I feel sure with the investment put in and your many many posts on the forum you would have solved the problem by now.
It feels as though there is a definite audio snobbery when it comes to trying to get good audio quality for music playback and despite some people not having a great big bucket of cash to plough into the hobby or having the opportunity to take the required degree to know which way up the stylus should be placed I would have thought useful assistance might be more appropriate than trying to take the p... hmmm, trying to make a joke of those wanting to input to a project and maybe learn a little from what hopefully will become an informative thread.
Wow what a strange reply, this is my first analog (turntable) project. The reason it is taking so long is I don't have tons of money but plug along as funds become available. I do all the work myself and make each project a learning experience. I am not sure where your hostility is rooted as I was wanting to know if this was a reasonable concept before I shopped pool table repair shops for some broken slate and the local aluminum recycler for the plate. I asked first if this was an appropriate venue to ask my question to Stew as I did not want to bother him with a PM and was welcoming others opinions as well.
Bill
Bill
Bill I have to apologise. You will see from sreten's posts he has rubbished Stews thread idea. I personally have little knowledge about the subject but have a great desire to learn and threads such as this give me that oppurtunity to do so at a level that doesn't blind me with science. When I replied to your earlier post it was one of encouragement to someone who appeared to be new to the subject however when you raised your question I read through your profile and could see that you have been around the forum for years indeed your own project has been running for some time and is a tad more indepth than the low cost project that this thread is encompassing. Your question is delving deep into the science of the design and whilst I am sure Stew and others will be more than capable of answering I took it as an old hand from the forum having a little pop. As the kids would say 'My Bad'
I hope the science of materials and how they work together will be dealt with, how a box type plinth compares to a solid or layered plinth, if aluminium sandwiched between slate with or without an absorption between would cause ringing or would deaden the sound.
Hope my mistake may be forgiven and that you get a good response to your query.
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