No EMT here in residential. And according to my electrician friend, EMT is a pain in the butt.
Still, they use EMT in my building, and it made running fibre optics a lot easier - they just pulled it through where the copper was.
Residential looks like this here:
Still, they use EMT in my building, and it made running fibre optics a lot easier - they just pulled it through where the copper was.
Residential looks like this here:
I've heard it claimed that Chicago code requires EMT so the Union tradesmen are guaranteed work. I've installed EMT in a few houses including my own, and it is definitely a skill. You have to know all these rules, use benders and reamers, it's not DIY friendly. I have all the tools to do electrical jobs; benders, cutters and reamers, wire strippers, several Fish tapes, hole cutters, hammer drill, and more.
It's a good thing I think, because it's too intimidating for amateurs to tackle. It's a terrible thing when unskilled people mess with wiring.
I can tell when Uncle Joe messed with the wiring, because it'll be wrong. There are so many things that unskilled electricians do wrong!
By the way, the wiring you show requires skilled technicians to install it properly too. You're not supposed to just fish the wire through the walls, although that's what Uncle Joe does. You're supposed to install nailing plates so a nail can't pierce the wires. You're supposed to install the wire in a predictable way so the drywall guys know where the wire is. And finally, it has to be wired correctly!
Never heard of nailing plates being required here, either.
Here's a typical panel install.
EMT is easy if you get the prefabbed parts but it costs a lot more that way, too. If it's on the surface, BX works fine but it's not as pretty.
Here's a typical panel install.
EMT is easy if you get the prefabbed parts but it costs a lot more that way, too. If it's on the surface, BX works fine but it's not as pretty.
Under older NEC (US) you have only GFI in bathroom, kitchen, cellar, garage, laundry. In retrofit this is GFI-outlets. But new construction wants two dedicated kitchen/pantry 20A circuits, and dedicated laundry circuit, all GFI. And common sense often suggests cellar on its own circuit. It generally makes more sense, in new work, to put GFI breakers in the cellar box.
The image in your post #3,183 has one GFI breaker, yellow button. (And I suspect the convenience outlet "should" have GFI, but I understand this is not your installation.)
There's limits on BX because the armor and fittings are lousy grounds. And it would be costly to do a whole house that way.
Go do a gas station. None of that thinwall tubing and penny fittings. All threaded pipe and explosion-proof.
And then we have AFCI and new-think. The town next door now requires AFCI on nearly all residential circuits (they've had fires and think arc-fault may help). This "can" be in the first outlet on a run, but the trend is to do it in the box. An AFCI is a fancy GFI (they may be rated either/both but all AFCI have a GFI action) so the house ends up 85% GFI protected in the cellar box.
I can't trace the Canadian rules and customs because Google gets muxed-up and shows me mostly NEC returns.
Last edited:
Yes, one GFCI outlet protecting a whole branch circuit is quite common here in retrofits. that's how my garage, kitchen, basement, and bathrooms are rewired. It was required by Village code.
In Dolton, Il (south suburb) it is forbidden to use a GFCI outlet to protect any other outlets. You must install individual GFCI outlets at each location. I found that out the hard way by not checking with the local building inspector.
Everybody's talking about different stuff because local codes vary widely. If you're not sure then check with your local building dept.
"And, in the USA the ground and neutral are tied at the panel. "
This is an absolute NO NO in France.
No neutral and ground connection in the house or appartement.
There is such connection in the electric grid usually at the last distribution transformer but you are not even supposed to know about it.
At the house it might have few volts between neutral and ground, this is not a fault.
This is an absolute NO NO in France.
No neutral and ground connection in the house or appartement.
There is such connection in the electric grid usually at the last distribution transformer but you are not even supposed to know about it.
At the house it might have few volts between neutral and ground, this is not a fault.
Here neutral is a centre tap on the transformer that feeds the house and it's (only) bonded at the service (first panel) like in this diagram.
Here transformer ground and neutral are connected.
Three or single phase plus neutral is supplied to customers, who need separate earthing, pit or chemical compound...which is latest practice.
No split phases, 220V nominal phase to neutral.
Three or single phase plus neutral is supplied to customers, who need separate earthing, pit or chemical compound...which is latest practice.
No split phases, 220V nominal phase to neutral.
And idiots will attach it to PVC or PEX. Especially the cable guy. Made sense when iron pipe went down 80 feet to a well, or when city water had miles of iron pipe. Too much plastic these days.
You also run into knob and tube, and cotton/ASBESTOS wrapped wire (pre-NM-B). Hope you have the extra $30k in the budget to re-do everything (at union wages and list prices). And add more for the asbestos. Up there everything is expensive….. They’d have to pay me $300k a year to get me to go to NE or Cali. Not only do local codes vary, but do does the level of enforcement. Right here they use a microscope to inspect, 80 miles east is the Wild West. And NEC is still in force, theoretically, even if no local code exists.
I think US and Canada do the same about this ground and neutral connection. Connected at the house panel.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Europe does not follow this.
Using pipes as ground is another questionable safety issue. Definitely not recommended in Europe now days.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Europe does not follow this.
Using pipes as ground is another questionable safety issue. Definitely not recommended in Europe now days.
From what I understand Europe just has both phases fed to every outlet. My 240V compressor outlet has no neutral. Doesn’t need it. When the light bulbs run on 240 you wouldn’t need it there either.
My boss called me yesterday asking about installing a ceiling fan/light where just a light used to be. I don’t understand what’s so god damned hard (or expensive) about running a stretch of 14/3 NM. Electrical engineers - sheesh.
My boss called me yesterday asking about installing a ceiling fan/light where just a light used to be. I don’t understand what’s so god damned hard (or expensive) about running a stretch of 14/3 NM. Electrical engineers - sheesh.
Yes, it's common here but in cities where there's a water pipe network in the ground and it works well. In settings like a farm you need at least one ground rod apparently.
NEC and AEC are pretty much minimum acceptable guidelines. Many communities have a lot of specific requirements added on to one of the codes; often many pages of requirements.
The discussion about electrical service and grounding practices points out differences, depending on location.
That, to me, is disturbing, since electricity and insuring its safe use should not be dependent on location or building codes.
Electricity is electricity...... and grounding is grounding.
Those fundamentals do not change just because someone in a different location says so.
That, to me, is disturbing, since electricity and insuring its safe use should not be dependent on location or building codes.
Electricity is electricity...... and grounding is grounding.
Those fundamentals do not change just because someone in a different location says so.
North American and European electrical service are different. Both are grounded differently, and both schemes work if implemented correctly. Other than that, grounding is basically the same all across North America (or it's supposed to be). The important issue is where the ground and neutral are connected together. In North America, that is the way it's supposed to be done. It is very important to be consistent about that.
Whether to connect the ground to a water pipe of a grounding rod is an important consideration. Some buildings have multiple service panels and a complicated grounding schematic. These have to be connected to an appropriately sized grounding rod, no exceptions. Residential can go either way, depending on what's available for grounding. It's no secret that plumbers have screwed up service grounds before. I've actually seen the ground wire blatantly disconnected after plumbing was done. But most older houses are grounded this way, including mine.
Whether to connect the ground to a water pipe of a grounding rod is an important consideration. Some buildings have multiple service panels and a complicated grounding schematic. These have to be connected to an appropriately sized grounding rod, no exceptions. Residential can go either way, depending on what's available for grounding. It's no secret that plumbers have screwed up service grounds before. I've actually seen the ground wire blatantly disconnected after plumbing was done. But most older houses are grounded this way, including mine.
Also, the "neutral" wire in North America on the pole is grounded to actual ground at every few poles. Since a typical scheme will have only one "neutral" wire at the pole but multiple phases and also a high voltage feed for transformers, and they all use the same "neutral" on the pole, there can be significant voltage drop across the neutral wire and of course this can be a source of noise "in the line" that audio designs have to deal with.
Fifteen years ago I replaced my circuit breaker panel and meter housing and service connection to support a house addition.
I came to realize that the house was not grounded with a stake or to any water pipes. I found one ground clamp on a pipe but the wire did not go to the panel or anything.
The utility people who reconnected the panel also said the ground wire on the pole on the street was missing likely due to someone harvesting it for meth.
RF interference with the stereo sure seemed to go away after having a ground to the water pipe and a ground stake added for the panel.
This is in the US so neutral and ground are bonded at the panel.
I came to realize that the house was not grounded with a stake or to any water pipes. I found one ground clamp on a pipe but the wire did not go to the panel or anything.
The utility people who reconnected the panel also said the ground wire on the pole on the street was missing likely due to someone harvesting it for meth.
RF interference with the stereo sure seemed to go away after having a ground to the water pipe and a ground stake added for the panel.
This is in the US so neutral and ground are bonded at the panel.
I saw where a plumber removed pipes and rerouted them, and left the clamp dangling off the wire in midair.
Any kind of rehab should have some kind of engineer or construction manager overseeing it or at least inspecting it. Plumbers aren't engineers.
Any kind of rehab should have some kind of engineer or construction manager overseeing it or at least inspecting it. Plumbers aren't engineers.