OK thanks that looks really nice to my eye would you say there were 2 break up modes at 6 and 15k ? these should be well out of intended range
. is that correct ?
. is that correct ?
There's no comparison IMO between the TC9 / TG9 and a decent large mid dome ie. SS D7608. While the little FR cones may be a great bargain for what you get and very proven for a budget design, a typical larger mid dome will top them in terms of midrange openness, resolution and clarity, especially at higher SPLs. The sensitivity is lower on the small Peerless FRs. Yes, you can cross the FRs lower but again, you run into power handling and excursion limitations.
I've tried a small FAST design with the TC9 and an Peerless 8" paper cone. It sounded nice and smooth, even delicate and somewhat euphonic at lower volume, but it didn't have the guts and dynamics in the mids ie. playing tracks with snare drum, electric guitar and vocals compared to a 3 way with the D7608 dome.
The 12MU SS revelator is in a whole different league with its beautiful massive high end motor. That is a very nice cone mid, as are the cheaper NE123W, NE149W, Seas MCA15RCY, SS 15Ms and Satori MR13 to name a few. These larger cones can't be crossed quite as high to a tweeter and off axis they aren't as smooth overall as a 3 way with 3" dome and moderately sized LF driver. You definitely have to carefully plan where you cross mid domes as they're much less forgiving to poor crossover design than most cone mids.
VC technology has also improved over the years with help of better materials and high temp adhesives, making smaller VCs handle alot more power compared to previous years. It enables a cone mid with a smaller VC keep up much better thermally. The drawback however is needing to run these mids in breakup mode if you want decent bandwidth from them. If the breakup is well dampened and distributed, it can be tolerable but you're clearly sacrificing accuracy for bandwidth. Dome mids stay pistonic over a bit wider bandwidth being smaller in effective diameter.
I'm a huge fan of the old but excellent Focal 5k013L kevlar cone midbass. It has some of the sweetest sounding mids of any cone driver ever made even to this current day, but you can't cross it as high as a 2 or 3" dome unless you're willing to deal with multi mode breakup.
The TC9 / TG9 are obviously very good drivers considering their cost and have a very high value to cost ratio. They are somewhat of a rare unicorn type driver and do many things well, but sound a bit veiled and vague to my ears in the upper mids when compared to most other typical dome mids. The high dampening required to tame breakup in a cone driver will hurt detail in the upper part of the bandwidth. Alot of people like this smooth type of sound and it helps tolerate lower quality compressed music. For me personally, I always prefer the greater detail that you get from a good dome mid, even if it reveals bad source material. I don't really listen to streamed music or MP3s. Life's too short to tolerate low quality, highly compressed sound.
An interesting experiment would be to attach a light weight, large diameter dust cap to a TC9 driver, fully covering the cone. I'd like to see how much that would lower sensitivity and change FR on and off axis. I have a feeling it would kill sensitivity too much, making the driver practically useless.
A 3 way using the cheap DMB-A, Silver Flute 8" wool cone LF and a small planar tweeter can blow away alot more expensive 3 way designs and also a budget FAST with TC9 and Peerless 8" paper cone LF. The DMB-A is definitely a better mid than the Dayton RS52-FN and newer version of RS52-AN. It suspiciously looks alot like a Dynaudio D52.
That's THD comparison but I would be curious to see IMD comparison. One of the contributing of IMD is current and in the midrange frequencies the M would use less current (@ given spl) so one would expect the M to have lower midrange IMD.
On other advantage for the M is the maximum SPL. If I had to chose between these drivers knowing that xmax is not required in the targeted fréquence, I would go for the M paper because of SPLmax and maybe better IMD but sonically there are probably all equally excellent.
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I plan to, with same cabinet and baffle location, FR will be made the same with digital filter. I already know TG9 will run out of steam early, but I think WF120 might walk all over the two domes I have. It's HD profile is superior, and at elevated SPL HD levels don't budge, I can't say the same for either peerless or Morel domes. We'll see if I find any magic in the superior power handling of these domes.
FWIW WF120 is rated 50W continuous IEC268-5, no additional filtering, which is a 100h noise test, while Morel claims 200W DIN, whick I believe is 1kHz for 10 min. For normal use in my living room, I'll be suprised to exceed 10W long term.
Anyone got thoughts on the BMR mids like the one used in the Philharmonic design? Is this a good middle ground between dome and cone?
I think the Philharmonic uses one of these - https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/audio-components/bmr-speakers/
I think the Philharmonic uses one of these - https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/audio-components/bmr-speakers/
I'm confused. It seems to me that you're saying the cone mid is max power limited due to small VC, but then at the end, you say it's excursion limited. Can you please clarify?
@DcibeL That Wavecor WF120 has a 25mm VC. Depending on the former material and ventilation, its roughly good for 40 - 50W used as a midrange. As a woofer it will take up to 60 - 70W continuous if theres enough VC excursion to move air across the VC.
I've tested the SS D7608 in a 3 way crossed at 800 and 3200 3rd order. Monitoring the VC voltage, it dealt with the equivalent of 80W for 2 hrs without any noticeable parameter change. If you did that with a 25mm VC driver running at no appreciable excursion, it would be compromised and could ruin the enamel on the VC windings or the adhesives attaching it to the cone. Mind you the D7608 has no ferrofluid in the gap either, so its not a weakling for that matter.
I've tested the SS D7608 in a 3 way crossed at 800 and 3200 3rd order. Monitoring the VC voltage, it dealt with the equivalent of 80W for 2 hrs without any noticeable parameter change. If you did that with a 25mm VC driver running at no appreciable excursion, it would be compromised and could ruin the enamel on the VC windings or the adhesives attaching it to the cone. Mind you the D7608 has no ferrofluid in the gap either, so its not a weakling for that matter.
@Paul Ebert I'm referring to running out of excursion before thermal limit of the VC is reached on most mid domes. I don't understand how this could be a confusing statement. The SS D7608 3" mid dome has about 1mm P-P xmax on paper and the Morel 2" mid domes have 2mm P-P.
what about a 4way then with 12or15inch woofer 8or7inch midbass 2or3inch dome then 1inch or smaller tweeter ?
Sensitivity is way too low for any system needing real dynamic capability.
Sorry, I read "your typical larger mid dome" as "your typical mid cone". Must be nap time.
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/21w-12mu-9800/
they look really nice I've actually read through all your projects before . think we had a chat about something but I can't find it on here now . how do you rate the volume level of the 12mu does it cope well with louder playback ? any comparison with the ne123 for example ?
all of the projects on your website look absolutely amazing and the finish is better than most commercial loudspeakers!!
they look really nice I've actually read through all your projects before . think we had a chat about something but I can't find it on here now . how do you rate the volume level of the 12mu does it cope well with louder playback ? any comparison with the ne123 for example ?
all of the projects on your website look absolutely amazing and the finish is better than most commercial loudspeakers!!
also anyone see any glaring problems with any of the new radian plannar midrange drivers ? I'm after the best midband possible I'm tempted to try these for the same price as the 12mu lot of money to risk on a type of driver I've never heard before ?
Coated foam surrounds ... makes no sense to me!
Witchcraft products from denmark?
praise to the dark forces 🙂
Witchcraft products from denmark?
praise to the dark forces 🙂
@Marveloudio The foam is made from EPDM rubber and not urethane, which crumbles after several years. The foamed rubber is very light weight, plus the coating controls breakup.