Oh and in all of this I forgot one speaker that I liked a lot: Sonus Faber's Luito.
Karl, at the risk of repeating myself, I strongly suggest that you listen to brands like KEF, Monitor Audio, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, B&W, PMC, Canton, Tidal, anything you can lay your hands on. Regardless of budget. The more you listen the more data points you have as to what you like, what you don't, etc.. and when you DIY you can use these data points to guesstimate if the final product you are making will suit YOUR taste.
Meanwhile in the back of my head....hmmm...what if we take the Neo8s and mate them with with RAAL's 70-10 or Mundorf's AMT (ML's ElectroMotion uses this) and a pair of SEAS Nextel or Eton Symphony 8" woofers....then again I just found this
http://www.audax-speaker.de/index.php?module=shop_articles&index[/url][shop_articles][action]=details&index[shop_articles][category==2&index[shop_articles][data][shop_articles_id]=83
http://www.audax-speaker.de/index.php?module=shop_articles&index[shop_articles][action]=details&index[shop_articles][category==2&index[shop_articles][data][shop_articles_id]=83]%[/category]]%[/category]
Karl, at the risk of repeating myself, I strongly suggest that you listen to brands like KEF, Monitor Audio, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, B&W, PMC, Canton, Tidal, anything you can lay your hands on. Regardless of budget. The more you listen the more data points you have as to what you like, what you don't, etc.. and when you DIY you can use these data points to guesstimate if the final product you are making will suit YOUR taste.
Meanwhile in the back of my head....hmmm...what if we take the Neo8s and mate them with with RAAL's 70-10 or Mundorf's AMT (ML's ElectroMotion uses this) and a pair of SEAS Nextel or Eton Symphony 8" woofers....then again I just found this
http://www.audax-speaker.de/index.php?module=shop_articles&index[/url][shop_articles][action]=details&index[shop_articles][category==2&index[shop_articles][data][shop_articles_id]=83
http://www.audax-speaker.de/index.php?module=shop_articles&index[shop_articles][action]=details&index[shop_articles][category==2&index[shop_articles][data][shop_articles_id]=83]%[/category]]%[/category]
Last edited:
I wish it was my design but no such luck 😱 (that's if I'm "Jim" - name is Chris actually). But if I can get around to it, it's the next driver on my wish list. I'd love to pair it with a Raal but I don't think that will ever happen in my lifetime - not at Raal prices. But I have considered pairing it with a Fountek ribbon like the CD3 or CD1, xo'd at about 4kHz. That should sound pretty sweet. Mind you I didn't know that much about Hiquphon tweeters before and now I'm quite impressed with how little cone resonance they have. Might be better than some ribbons even.
Yes this is Paul K's speaker. He designed the bass enclosure but Dan Neubecker did the mid cabinet design and the xo work. It's got good pedigree like the Kairos (Jeff B) and the Finalists (Curt Campbell) as well (despite what youknowwho may think). Xo points on the Amaroso are at 610Hz and 2.7kHz btw.
Here are a few links if anybody is interested:
Amaroso
Philharmonic Audio
SalkSound home page
Introducing: Echelon - something else from Dan N (now that is some nice cabinet bracing)
Curt Campbell Designs
navin, that's another good looking Neo10 build you linked to but looks to be over Karl's budget.
Btw, I concur that it's a great idea to get out and listen to as many speakers as possible to perhaps get a better feel for what you like and don't like. Barring that, all the designers mentioned by name above are active on the Parts Express forum so if you go there - Tech Talk Forum, you might be able to get better 1st hand listening opinions on the builds in question. Just a thought.
Even though they tend to cost a lot, if you can listen to some 8" 5" 1" designs by Revel that would probably be a good idea. Their loudspeakers are usually designed extremely well, have a flat on axis response and have their drivers crossed at xover frequencies designed to maximise the off axis performance. This is in line with a lot of well designed DIY 8-5-1s, at least the designs we've been recommending and will allow you to see how these things can actually sound.
Revel two ways, using 6" and 1" drivers would also be a good idea as these too are also well designed and will have more in common with the Kairos than wont.
Revel two ways, using 6" and 1" drivers would also be a good idea as these too are also well designed and will have more in common with the Kairos than wont.
I am going to make my next move to be to listen to a crap load of speakers. It's been a few years since I have auditioned anything. There is a fairly well stocked shop nearby - I'll have a look through their website and see what they have to offer.
I love this thread. All the discussion going on here is really interesting. I just wish I had some intelligent input of my own to add!
I love this thread. All the discussion going on here is really interesting. I just wish I had some intelligent input of my own to add!
Well if you can let us know what they've got we can advise what might be a decent comparison for some of the DIY offerings.
I certainly think that a decent Revel design would compare nicely with the Finalists or Amaroso. Both designs are very well executed, have flat frequency responses, will have decent off axis responses and very low distortion. This is pretty much akin to how Revel design their loudspeakers so should make for a decent comparison. KEFs reference series is also in a similar vein but they use a coaxial mid/tweeter which do give a rather unique presentation, especially because the coaxial mounting also gives you controlled directivity on the tweeter. You don't need to worry about what this actually means except that it can and will give you a different type of sound.
I'm guessing what we're really after though is for you to get a kind of feel for what a 6"+1" vs 8"+5"+1" offer in terms of their differences in ability to fill a room with sound, how loud they will go and how deep etc. Dealers like to know why you are there, so if you explain them that you're on the hunt for some new speakers but don't know what kind of size would suit you better then they'd probably be pretty helpful.
It is quite likely that they will ask you what speakers you've got in mind, because this is what they do. If you say I'm only here to listen and then build something else they might tell you to get lost, so definitely don't do that. It would probably be better to say that you hadn't really got anything specifically in mind because you wanted to listen to some designs first before making any decisions.
You could also let them know that price isn't set in stone as you're flexible. IE if what you get for paying more really gives you something that you're looking for then you can save for them, unless things cost stupid money. That is, you don't know what the difference is between a £2000 6+1 is vs a £500 6+1 and that you really do need to find out. The same could be said for the 8+5+1. Just from Revel you've got the F12, the F208 and the Salon 2. All three are pretty much 2x8"+5 +1 designs at very difference price points and have nice flat responses with nice off axis performance, so what does all that extra money get you? Etc.
Do remember here that a design with 2 8" drivers wont really go any deeper than a design with a single 8", it's just how loud it will go.
I certainly think that a decent Revel design would compare nicely with the Finalists or Amaroso. Both designs are very well executed, have flat frequency responses, will have decent off axis responses and very low distortion. This is pretty much akin to how Revel design their loudspeakers so should make for a decent comparison. KEFs reference series is also in a similar vein but they use a coaxial mid/tweeter which do give a rather unique presentation, especially because the coaxial mounting also gives you controlled directivity on the tweeter. You don't need to worry about what this actually means except that it can and will give you a different type of sound.
I'm guessing what we're really after though is for you to get a kind of feel for what a 6"+1" vs 8"+5"+1" offer in terms of their differences in ability to fill a room with sound, how loud they will go and how deep etc. Dealers like to know why you are there, so if you explain them that you're on the hunt for some new speakers but don't know what kind of size would suit you better then they'd probably be pretty helpful.
It is quite likely that they will ask you what speakers you've got in mind, because this is what they do. If you say I'm only here to listen and then build something else they might tell you to get lost, so definitely don't do that. It would probably be better to say that you hadn't really got anything specifically in mind because you wanted to listen to some designs first before making any decisions.
You could also let them know that price isn't set in stone as you're flexible. IE if what you get for paying more really gives you something that you're looking for then you can save for them, unless things cost stupid money. That is, you don't know what the difference is between a £2000 6+1 is vs a £500 6+1 and that you really do need to find out. The same could be said for the 8+5+1. Just from Revel you've got the F12, the F208 and the Salon 2. All three are pretty much 2x8"+5 +1 designs at very difference price points and have nice flat responses with nice off axis performance, so what does all that extra money get you? Etc.
Do remember here that a design with 2 8" drivers wont really go any deeper than a design with a single 8", it's just how loud it will go.
Chris, sorry I assumed the J in your handle stood for Jim.
I would consider the NeoX tweeters over the older CD series of Fountek. The 3.0 would be best.
Karl, my advice is not just to visit one shop. In India I had to visit at least 20 audio saloons to cover all the brands on my list (and still missed a few).
There has to a lot to be said about Kevin Voecks. He was able to convince Harman to start only it's second organic division (JBL, Infinity, Mark Levinson, Lexicon etc.. were all purchased). I have not heard the newer F208 but have heard the older F52 and they were good.
I still believe that given that Karl has carpentry skills he can save at least 50% over the price over a commercial loudspeaker with similar performance.
Good idea, try to go to an Audiophile Show, there you'll find more different brands and exotic speakers.
If you have no experience with designing speakers and crossovers, start from an existing design !!!
Troels is an excellent resource with plenty of builders around the world,
in most of his designs the output of the tweeter can be adjusted to personal preferences.
Last edited:
One thing that has been discussed here is directivity. The room and the speaker always interact, and power response of a speaker or horizontal directivity as the most important factor of it, is very important. Large or well treated rooms are not so critical for for it, but as a general rule of thumb, a speaker with smooth response and smooth/controlled directivity will sound best.
Different types of speakers have different types of radiation. We can generalize:
1. 3-4way - low directivity, response dropping at highs above 6-8kHz (1"dome tweeter)
2. 2-3way with waveguide tweeter - low or moderate smooth directivity, dropping above 1-2kHz
3. 2-way with large waveguide midtweeter - moderate and smooth directivity, dropping above 800-1200Hz
4. 2-way without waveguide - moderate and ragged directivity, response dropping 1,5-3kHz and above 6kHz
5. dipole well done 4-way - strong and smooth directivity, dropping above 2-300Hz
6.dipole 2-3way - strong directivity below 1,5KHz, no directivity 2-6kHz, dropping above 6kHz
Here are my measurements of 4 different speakers, response to 04 30¤ and 60¤ horizontally, 9ms gating:
3whifidsp - 3-way with 4" mid and Fountek Neo tweeter crossed 3kHz
AINOgradient - 4way dipole with Neo8 mid and Fountek CD3.5H tweeter crossed at 3,2kHz (smoothest dipole that I know of)
ER18DXT - 2-way with 6½"midwoofer and 1" DXT-tweeter crossed at 1,8kHz
Infinity Alpha20 - 2-way with 6½"midwoofer and 1" tweeter crossed at 3kH
z
Different types of speakers have different types of radiation. We can generalize:
1. 3-4way - low directivity, response dropping at highs above 6-8kHz (1"dome tweeter)
2. 2-3way with waveguide tweeter - low or moderate smooth directivity, dropping above 1-2kHz
3. 2-way with large waveguide midtweeter - moderate and smooth directivity, dropping above 800-1200Hz
4. 2-way without waveguide - moderate and ragged directivity, response dropping 1,5-3kHz and above 6kHz
5. dipole well done 4-way - strong and smooth directivity, dropping above 2-300Hz
6.dipole 2-3way - strong directivity below 1,5KHz, no directivity 2-6kHz, dropping above 6kHz
Here are my measurements of 4 different speakers, response to 04 30¤ and 60¤ horizontally, 9ms gating:
3whifidsp - 3-way with 4" mid and Fountek Neo tweeter crossed 3kHz
AINOgradient - 4way dipole with Neo8 mid and Fountek CD3.5H tweeter crossed at 3,2kHz (smoothest dipole that I know of)
ER18DXT - 2-way with 6½"midwoofer and 1" DXT-tweeter crossed at 1,8kHz
Infinity Alpha20 - 2-way with 6½"midwoofer and 1" tweeter crossed at 3kH
z
Attachments
Last edited:
Great advice here lately.
Let me add that I included the Sunflowers (open back MTM) and the Amarosos (Neo8 planar mid with very, very minor open back) because I thought they might share a few similarities with the Martin-Logans that Karl said he liked, albeit each one in slightly different ways. Imaging and detail have both been praised on these designs and well, they both use the same woofer on the bottom end.
Karl, at some point it's also going to help you to find out what the costs of some of these projects are going to be for you. The Kairos are available only as a kit from the States I think. Shipping on that might be expensive. I would drop them a line and see if they would just sell you the plans or maybe the plans and the xo's and then source out the drivers locally. That should save you a bit of money.
For the Amarosos, see if you can source the Neo8's locally. If not, find out what the shipping and duties on those would be ( Meniscus sells the driver and the faceplate - BG, Neo 8 ). And I think the Hiquphon tweeters can be bought directly from the manufacturer if you can't source them elsewhere. I'm still not sure how much this build is exactly going to cost you.
All the other drivers and parts should be easily available I think.
Let me add that I included the Sunflowers (open back MTM) and the Amarosos (Neo8 planar mid with very, very minor open back) because I thought they might share a few similarities with the Martin-Logans that Karl said he liked, albeit each one in slightly different ways. Imaging and detail have both been praised on these designs and well, they both use the same woofer on the bottom end.
Karl, at some point it's also going to help you to find out what the costs of some of these projects are going to be for you. The Kairos are available only as a kit from the States I think. Shipping on that might be expensive. I would drop them a line and see if they would just sell you the plans or maybe the plans and the xo's and then source out the drivers locally. That should save you a bit of money.
For the Amarosos, see if you can source the Neo8's locally. If not, find out what the shipping and duties on those would be ( Meniscus sells the driver and the faceplate - BG, Neo 8 ). And I think the Hiquphon tweeters can be bought directly from the manufacturer if you can't source them elsewhere. I'm still not sure how much this build is exactly going to cost you.
All the other drivers and parts should be easily available I think.
Is there anyone in here who compared Troel designs to jeff bagby to curt campbell to paul K or to Jim salk and could chip in on to which designer he prefers?
I know Wolf from tech talk have heard the statements and the continuum and prefers the continuum from jeff.
here's other opinion. seem the statements or the continuum are equal:
"
Well Mark that isn't what you asked in your original post. You asked "what is your favorite speaker". For reference I have a set of Mini Statements and my new Continuum speakers. I think I may have shot myself in the foot as far as building something that is going to sound better. In everything I do I set the bar high so I have to work for it. This will be like climbing Everest.
I don't know if you can really answer the question " what is my favorite". So far my Mini Statements are my favorite if I want to rock the house. My Contimuum speakers are my favorite if I want to listen at lower levels. If I want to look at them my Nightmare speakers are my favorite. Soon to go back into the shop for a tone up. And hopefully I can get them to sound somewhere between my two reference speakers.
"
While I see the point in lsitening to tons of speakers, it doesnt really say much about any other speakers op never listened to. what I'm trying to say is buying a design without ever heard it could result in deception, so op should be sure that the design he get and pays near to 1k for will satisfy him. Normally, the only way to tell is to listen to the design before buying it and that wont likely be possible for op, so he needs to be careful here.
For all its worth, the continuum from jeff bagby are amazing. Paired with a subwoofer with good dsp control, the sound is stunning. Reasonably dynamic, extremely for its size, detailed, beautiful mids, clear and never harsh highs. Theres a lot to love about continuum and are the best speaker I have had in my place, and ive had a good bunch. The continuum dissapears completely and well setup, it seems as if theres a center speaker because the image is so focus and definitely in front of the speakers and all aorund. For 350$ for the kit, the continuum which btw have won all the diy contest when it was featured, is a no brainer. BUT you need a subwoofer, otherwise I coulnt live with them since they start to roll off at 70hz.
I know Wolf from tech talk have heard the statements and the continuum and prefers the continuum from jeff.
here's other opinion. seem the statements or the continuum are equal:
"
Well Mark that isn't what you asked in your original post. You asked "what is your favorite speaker". For reference I have a set of Mini Statements and my new Continuum speakers. I think I may have shot myself in the foot as far as building something that is going to sound better. In everything I do I set the bar high so I have to work for it. This will be like climbing Everest.
I don't know if you can really answer the question " what is my favorite". So far my Mini Statements are my favorite if I want to rock the house. My Contimuum speakers are my favorite if I want to listen at lower levels. If I want to look at them my Nightmare speakers are my favorite. Soon to go back into the shop for a tone up. And hopefully I can get them to sound somewhere between my two reference speakers.
"
While I see the point in lsitening to tons of speakers, it doesnt really say much about any other speakers op never listened to. what I'm trying to say is buying a design without ever heard it could result in deception, so op should be sure that the design he get and pays near to 1k for will satisfy him. Normally, the only way to tell is to listen to the design before buying it and that wont likely be possible for op, so he needs to be careful here.
For all its worth, the continuum from jeff bagby are amazing. Paired with a subwoofer with good dsp control, the sound is stunning. Reasonably dynamic, extremely for its size, detailed, beautiful mids, clear and never harsh highs. Theres a lot to love about continuum and are the best speaker I have had in my place, and ive had a good bunch. The continuum dissapears completely and well setup, it seems as if theres a center speaker because the image is so focus and definitely in front of the speakers and all aorund. For 350$ for the kit, the continuum which btw have won all the diy contest when it was featured, is a no brainer. BUT you need a subwoofer, otherwise I coulnt live with them since they start to roll off at 70hz.
Last edited:
In a perfect world, yes, we would all be able to audition the DIY loudspeakers that we wish to build, but we can't. All we can go on is the testimony of others and the measurements and design criteria.
Personally I haven't built anyone elses designs, but I do know from experience with my own designs that all of the agreed on designs here will sound very good because they are all very well designed. Sure, there will be a preference towards one or another, but that's life. One person prefers a green apple and one a red, neither are bad apples, just different. The beauty of DIY here though, is that if the sound isn't quite to your liking, as in you find it too bright, too forward or there's too much bass, there's something you can do about it to end up with something you are very happy with.
Personally I haven't built anyone elses designs, but I do know from experience with my own designs that all of the agreed on designs here will sound very good because they are all very well designed. Sure, there will be a preference towards one or another, but that's life. One person prefers a green apple and one a red, neither are bad apples, just different. The beauty of DIY here though, is that if the sound isn't quite to your liking, as in you find it too bright, too forward or there's too much bass, there's something you can do about it to end up with something you are very happy with.
I thought I'd just post this from the other forums.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ni)-Statements&p=590402&viewfull=1#post590402
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ni)-Statements&p=590402&viewfull=1#post590402
The RS225 is best in class and then some above its class/price point, this is why it ends up as the bottom in lots of moderately priced three ways. The RS28A is similar but costs a bit more for what you get, it will cross over low without complaint and is generally very easy to work with.
I haven't used the RS28A, but I have worked with the RS225 and it is my go to 8" driver, unless you want to spend silly money or have wildly different requirements to what it gives you. If you try and spend less you tend to end up with a lot less, whereas you need to spend a lot more to get a small amount more.
I haven't used the RS28A, but I have worked with the RS225 and it is my go to 8" driver, unless you want to spend silly money or have wildly different requirements to what it gives you. If you try and spend less you tend to end up with a lot less, whereas you need to spend a lot more to get a small amount more.
On the HT forum I came across this
http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm
that uses both of those units that catches my eye.
Obviously it's not what I'm ultimately after, but putting that aside and looking at it in the interest of learning I think it could be a good build?
It seems well documented too...
And I look it like this, it's can't be any worse than what I've got now, and I get to have a go at building.
I have an m-audio fast track pro and a access to a few dynamic and condenser mics so I could get some software to take measurements, have a play at altering things etc.
I could surely then use the units along with a suitable mid to get a design working for the sort of thing that I am ultimately after?
http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm
that uses both of those units that catches my eye.
Obviously it's not what I'm ultimately after, but putting that aside and looking at it in the interest of learning I think it could be a good build?
It seems well documented too...
And I look it like this, it's can't be any worse than what I've got now, and I get to have a go at building.
I have an m-audio fast track pro and a access to a few dynamic and condenser mics so I could get some software to take measurements, have a play at altering things etc.
I could surely then use the units along with a suitable mid to get a design working for the sort of thing that I am ultimately after?
op, you should only buy a speaker you have heard or build something that was reviewed by many many many peers. Now people recommend speakers they havent heard and think they sound good based on measurments!
If you are going with a kit, go with the most renown diyers designers like jeff bagby, paul K. ect.
If you are going with a kit, go with the most renown diyers designers like jeff bagby, paul K. ect.
youknowyou, the measurements pretty much tell you about how a speaker will sound, that is providing certain design aspects have been met and we aren't recommending poorly designed loudspeakers that don't fit into that category. All the designs are low distortion, using drivers within their suitable ranges and crossed over with the drivers properly phase aligned.
When you have lots of properly designed loudspeakers they all tend to sound very good. The consumer audio market is filled with horribly designed loudspeakers. As mentioned before, the beauty of DIY is that if you build a design and it doesn't quite meet your requirements you can tune it to suit them.
Karl, the RS28/RS225 design by MarkK is another well executed design. The beauty of this design is that you can reuse the tweeter and the woofer in the Finalists if you want (the RS28A and RS28F are pretty much interchangeable), all you need to do is add the Vifa NE mid. So if you build it, you've still got options to build something else too.
When you have lots of properly designed loudspeakers they all tend to sound very good. The consumer audio market is filled with horribly designed loudspeakers. As mentioned before, the beauty of DIY is that if you build a design and it doesn't quite meet your requirements you can tune it to suit them.
Karl, the RS28/RS225 design by MarkK is another well executed design. The beauty of this design is that you can reuse the tweeter and the woofer in the Finalists if you want (the RS28A and RS28F are pretty much interchangeable), all you need to do is add the Vifa NE mid. So if you build it, you've still got options to build something else too.
This design is crossing an 8" metal woofer to a 1" tweeter without a waveguide. The severe breakup of a metal driver will be driven by the low order harmonics within the operating range of the 8" driver. It can be addressed to a fair extent by using an expensive crossover with steep slopes and notches. Using a midrange would avoids this.
The breakup in the metal woofer and it's diameter will force too low a crossover point for the tweeter. This means the tweeter will limit SPL with distortion in the range most sensitive to the ear. Asking too much of a tweeter at the low end seems quite common in DIY designs.
The directivity of a 1" driver and an 8" driver are significantly different. A waveguide should really be used to help with the match if high fidelity is a concern.
Getting a configuration like this to work reasonably looks like a fun challenge but I would not have high expectations. Normally a 2 way with a large woofer is going to be better off using a driver that has a controlled breakup and not the severe breakup of a metal woofer.
What proportion of those peers have a vested interest? What proportion have unbalanced enthusiasms?
If measurements show a design to be less than competent from an engineering perspective should it be passed over? That is, can a design measure poorly and yet be a good speaker worthy of high praise and good reviews.
What do designs that measure well sound like to you?
What is making these designers renowned to you? I am not disagreeing with your choice just asking what you are picking up on.
I think that andy19191 is too critical now - you will end up with empty hands that way! There is no such thing as the ultimate/best speaker or best choice!
MarkK's Dayton 8+1 is by my estimate a fine speaker (for a 2-way) with popular high-value drivers. an excellent "first diy-speaker".
Karld, you must make your choice now and start building! If you choose a well documented speaker and listen to it at home and make your own measurements you will learn much more than reading this thread! Personal experience will give you confidence and you have more solid base for your next project! The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!
Happy learning!
MarkK's Dayton 8+1 is by my estimate a fine speaker (for a 2-way) with popular high-value drivers. an excellent "first diy-speaker".
Karld, you must make your choice now and start building! If you choose a well documented speaker and listen to it at home and make your own measurements you will learn much more than reading this thread! Personal experience will give you confidence and you have more solid base for your next project! The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!
Happy learning!
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.