I haven't started to read the whole thread yet, but will shortly since I'm about to start reassembling the E50 motor of the 124 mkI that I bought a few months ago.
To that effect, I'd like to ask your opinions on which type/kind of oil to use for the motor rebuild and also for the tt itself.
I'm sorry if it has already been mentioned in the thread, but I'll be receiving the new parts soon and would like to order the lubricants ASAP.
Thanks in advance for your help!
To that effect, I'd like to ask your opinions on which type/kind of oil to use for the motor rebuild and also for the tt itself.
I'm sorry if it has already been mentioned in the thread, but I'll be receiving the new parts soon and would like to order the lubricants ASAP.
Thanks in advance for your help!
I use 20wt electric motor oil - in this case 3 in 1 brand 20wt electric motor oil. Should be available at the local hardware store, don't confuse this with regular 3 in 1.. (I posted a picture of the bottle early in thread)
When rebuilding the motor be sure to soak those felts and the bearings in plenty of oil.
Same oil can be used in the main bearing. I fill to just slightly above the bottom of the lower bushing, but note this is by no means universal, others use much less oil.
If you purchase an end cap upgrade make sure you get one with a thrust plate.
A worthwhile upgrade for a 124/I would be a motor mounting upgrade kit like sq38s sells on eBay which substantially improves motor decoupling from the chassis.
Polish the intermediate and motor pulleys well so that they are smooth as glass otherwise they will make a lot of noise.
The current "OEM" belt is not the best choice performance wise if everything is working well. I've two tables running cheap $5 belt bought from a fellow on eBay located in Hollywood FLA - they run very quietly and don't goo up the pulleys. Belts will seem very tight when new, but will stretch about 7% or so in use.
Mine is now running very quietly and gets up to speed in less than 1/3 of a revolution and warms up and locks onto speed within a few minutes at 70 degrees F. Coast down speed from 33.33rpm is about 105 seconds currently with 20wt oil in the main bearing.
Rebuild, but don't make adjustments to things unless they are absolutely necessary - usually a good cleaning and lube is all that is required.
Thank you very much for the reply Kevin. I'm gonna go out and try to find some of that oil locally.
I've already ordered the motor upgrade kit from sq38s, it should be here fairly soon. I got a new bubble level and voltage stickers from him as well...
I received the motor rebuild kit and main bearing upgrade (with new thrust plate) yesterday, so as soon as I find the oil, I'll be good to start rebuilding.
I'd like to find a voltage regulator as well, to test the motor when rebuilt.
The table came with an SME 3012 series II w/series I headshell. Do you think it's a good idea to send it for a complete rewire and tune-up? (the connector plug is broken so I was thinking of having it modded to the RCA connector).
I found this place: SME Tonearms, SME 3009 Turntable Parts Templates & Manuals
A complete rewire, tune-up and replacement of worn/missing parts is $350. Do you think it's worth it?
Thanks again for your time and advice.
I've already ordered the motor upgrade kit from sq38s, it should be here fairly soon. I got a new bubble level and voltage stickers from him as well...
I received the motor rebuild kit and main bearing upgrade (with new thrust plate) yesterday, so as soon as I find the oil, I'll be good to start rebuilding.
I'd like to find a voltage regulator as well, to test the motor when rebuilt.
The table came with an SME 3012 series II w/series I headshell. Do you think it's a good idea to send it for a complete rewire and tune-up? (the connector plug is broken so I was thinking of having it modded to the RCA connector).
I found this place: SME Tonearms, SME 3009 Turntable Parts Templates & Manuals
A complete rewire, tune-up and replacement of worn/missing parts is $350. Do you think it's worth it?
Thanks again for your time and advice.
You just need a small variac or even just a lamp socket with low wattage incandescent bulb (15 - 25W) wired in series with an extension cord.
I'm not really all that sold on the fancy and expensive arm rewiring, it appears to me that most of the benefit comes from replacing the SME connector and stock cable with something better. You could get the RCA upgrade kit from Analog Tube Audio | Home to install yourself or you could potentially just install a good set of RCA plugs on the existing cable particularly if you are using a LOMC cartridge - this approach actually sounds much better to me than the RCA mod with a mediocre cable. A really good low capacitance cable on the existing SME connector works pretty well too. When you install the arm on your arm board I recommend you remove the bedplate grommets before doing so - this seems to result in tighter, more neutral sounding bass, and somewhat better tracking of warps. I own several 3009 Series II and restored a 3012 Series II for a friend recently so I have a little direct experience with the arm.
The Series I head shell is ideal for use with this arm and higher mass cartridges which fit - some modern ones may not in which case the one of the Orsonic head shells could be a good choice, also make sure you also replace the stub decoupler. (Readily available on eBay) There are also rigid decouplers (no decoupling) available on eBay as well as the OEM rubber type. Note that the 3012 Series II should be used with relatively high mass, low compliance cartridges like the DL-103 in say a Midas body or one of several G type SPUs or the SPU N on a good head shell. I use a Zu Denon which will shortly get transferred to my yet to arrive Schick tone arm.
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Hi Gene,
Absolutely no progress to report! 😛
It's working fine at the moment and I have literally 0 time for tinkering since I started my new job a month ago. The next big changes will occur when the Schick arm and the slate plinth get here. The arm should arrive sometime late this month or early May, the plinth will get here in June. I'm not expecting to make any significant changes between now and then. I'm just averaging a few hours a week of listening time.
High on my list of things to get done is a retip of the ZU DL-103-1 as I can clearly hear the spherical stylus inflicted warts (somewhat mediocre HF tracking performance, and the occasional sibilance which may be the recording) and enough hours have elapsed to make it somewhat less questionable. I need to acquire another Denon in the meantime for use while the ZU is being transformed.
The only other news is the parts unit has got a new lease on life as a functioning TD-121 for the time being, and I am working little by little to find the parts to turn it back into a TD-124/I - a few of the parts ultimately are not going to be version correct as I am purchasing components mostly on price as I can get them. This unit will get the current SME arm and arm board. It's not quite there yet, but there is no rush.
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Thwarted again, Rats! 😱 Over the past few weeks there have been a lot of parts I could have used to restore my second table, this week there was almost the complete set, I bid $120 and someone outbid me by $2.50 to win at the very last second. I have a feeling this table may stay a 121 indefinitely - the same thing happened last week as well with another set of nearly as complete parts. Given the overall condition of this second table and the many critical parts missing I need to keep expenditures fairly modest.. 🙁
Wondering why icons I click in the advanced editor list no longer show up, and those I add manually as ascii text do??
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Kevin,
Good to hear that your 124 is working fine, (so is mine with no problems) but am a little confused about the 121/124 project. Is it originally a 121 or 124?
And what do you need to restore it? (to a 121/124)
Gene
Originally a TD-124 that someone stripped to upgrade a 121 apparently (see earlier in this thread for details). It's got a bunch of TD-121 parts that someone quickly swapped in, and was missing some parts. It's got a platter and bearing assembly from a TD-121 along with the linkages. I was able to find some photographs of how the mechanism differs from the 124 and improvise a few fixes. It's working and will eventually receive the current armboard and SME 3009 Series II arm as a casual use table for audio get togethers and the like.
Just received my E50 suspension upgrade kit, and located some of the oil you recommended, locally at a Canadian Tire store...
The rebuild should start soon, just need a new belt and, maybe, a new strobe light...
The rebuild should start soon, just need a new belt and, maybe, a new strobe light...
Excellent thread, I've read it from the start. My TD124 had a "heartbeat" from the idler being very eccentric in the way it had been cut - the grease that Schopper supplies took care of it, just very little applied to the pulley. My wheel has the same lateral movement as yours, but runs true against pulley and platter. I suspect the heartbeat may be due to the wheels bearings being worn, and the grease sorted that out?
Hi- I had a wobbling idler wheel that was noisy with a thumping sound. You applied the grease to the pulley? I'm a bit confused.
That's the most likely explanation for your situation, the other likely cause is a table that has been stored with the pulley engaged for countless eons of time. One of my pulleys definitely has an eccentricity due to this cause. Note that eBay seller sq38s has perfectly serviceable replacement pulleys. I'll eventually get one to evaluate and report back.
I believe that if the pulley itself had an eccentricity, I would have seen that as it moved around. But both the pulley and the periphery of the idler wheel are perfectly justified. The Idler wheel itself, though, has the off-center mass, as described below, and the position of that mass corresponded with the knocking.
To be completely clear - the idler wheel itself is perfectly round, with no thump from a worn or flattened area.
But just as in moonshiner's video the shoulder of the idler wheel (the raised area that starts a bit in from the periphery, is excentric relative to the center of the wheel (the mass of the shoulder is unevenly distributed around the center). This was enough for me to get a little da-thump, da-thump, even with the platter installed.
If the fit between the bearing and the idler wheel pulley is tight, then you won't get a knock. But if there is a little leeway there, then the off-center mass seems to pull the wheel, and produce a knock.
I used the grease inside the idler wheel, and this was apparently enough to remove any leeway for the wheel to move - the knock disappeared. It was quite pronounced before I applied the grease, now it's gone.
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Engine "whirr" - one cause
On my TD 124 I get a low whirr which can be heard from a couple of feet away. I have diagnosed the cause to be the belt, which is just a touch too tight. I see recommendations here that it should be as loose as possible, and should be stretched overnight on a coffee can...
When I hold a cotton ball against the capstan on the engine pulley, and apply very soft pressure in the direction of the engine spindle, away from the intermediate pulley, the whirr instantly disappears and the engine becomes completely silent.
This could support the notion that the belt is pulling at the engine; or else it could be that the very light pressure I apply is sufficient to dampen the whirr. I lean towards the first option. i have stretched the belt a little, to the point that it is now looser, and that has reduced the whirr. If I stretch it more, I fear it will become too loose.
What options are there for adjusting the vibration in the engine? It's perfectly silent after the barest of slight/little/minuscule pressure against the capstan, and it seems silly not to be able to have that silence be a feature.
On my TD 124 I get a low whirr which can be heard from a couple of feet away. I have diagnosed the cause to be the belt, which is just a touch too tight. I see recommendations here that it should be as loose as possible, and should be stretched overnight on a coffee can...
When I hold a cotton ball against the capstan on the engine pulley, and apply very soft pressure in the direction of the engine spindle, away from the intermediate pulley, the whirr instantly disappears and the engine becomes completely silent.
This could support the notion that the belt is pulling at the engine; or else it could be that the very light pressure I apply is sufficient to dampen the whirr. I lean towards the first option. i have stretched the belt a little, to the point that it is now looser, and that has reduced the whirr. If I stretch it more, I fear it will become too loose.
What options are there for adjusting the vibration in the engine? It's perfectly silent after the barest of slight/little/minuscule pressure against the capstan, and it seems silly not to be able to have that silence be a feature.
I had a lot of problems with this issue, in the end it turned out to be surface imperfections (due to dirt and oxidization) on the pulley running surfaces. Clean and carefully polish both the motor and intermediate pulley running surfaces until they feel very smooth, (do not get carried away and damage the pulleys or change their profile!) doing this resolved most of my noise issues. Applying talc to new and still good older belts helps quite a lot too. Any roughness on the surface of the pulleys will excite the belt, and make it sing.
Not sure where the coffee can idea came from originally as when I went to try this I found these belts are way too long to fit around any coffee cans standard sized sold around here.
Mine is almost inaudible at 30cm now.
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Platter centering TD124
The centering from the mainplatter on the bearing shaft is very critical for the speed and wow component.
On the picture you can see the jig I made for it kind of copy from the original jig from Thorens as you can see in the Thorens TD124 book.
Two speed measurements before and after tell a lot max. runout is about 0,03 mm.
Volken
The centering from the mainplatter on the bearing shaft is very critical for the speed and wow component.
On the picture you can see the jig I made for it kind of copy from the original jig from Thorens as you can see in the Thorens TD124 book.
Two speed measurements before and after tell a lot max. runout is about 0,03 mm.
Volken
Attachments
Cool set up. I would expect this to provide very similar repeatability to the factory set up.
Can you provide a relatively simple treatise on your rumble measurement method, what you use and how you set up to do these rumble measurements? I've always been particularly confused by the X axis span of 2.8kHz - 3kHz - I assume this is done by playing a test recording with a tone at 3kHz? And you are looking at the intermodulation products between that tone and the rumble frequencies presumably if I interpret this correctly?
I'm somewhat familiar with the Thorens rumble-coupler set up which does not use a test disk.
Neither result (-40dB rumble sidebands) looks that good, but I don't know what the level of that tone is relative to normal recorded velocities either. The TD-124 is not regarded as having stellar rumble performance by more recent standards, but I have to admit that I don't hear significant levels of rumble from my TD-124/II and would expect it to be very similar to your measurement. Quite a few of my records have significantly higher cutter induced rumble than my table as evidenced by my quietest recordings.
One of these days I will get set up to do some measurements - that will only happen once I actually finish the project. I'm still waiting on the plinth, and arm. Plenty of tweaking will probably follow, and then perhaps a baseline measurement against which to make improvements if possible..
Can you provide a relatively simple treatise on your rumble measurement method, what you use and how you set up to do these rumble measurements? I've always been particularly confused by the X axis span of 2.8kHz - 3kHz - I assume this is done by playing a test recording with a tone at 3kHz? And you are looking at the intermodulation products between that tone and the rumble frequencies presumably if I interpret this correctly?
I'm somewhat familiar with the Thorens rumble-coupler set up which does not use a test disk.
Neither result (-40dB rumble sidebands) looks that good, but I don't know what the level of that tone is relative to normal recorded velocities either. The TD-124 is not regarded as having stellar rumble performance by more recent standards, but I have to admit that I don't hear significant levels of rumble from my TD-124/II and would expect it to be very similar to your measurement. Quite a few of my records have significantly higher cutter induced rumble than my table as evidenced by my quietest recordings.
One of these days I will get set up to do some measurements - that will only happen once I actually finish the project. I'm still waiting on the plinth, and arm. Plenty of tweaking will probably follow, and then perhaps a baseline measurement against which to make improvements if possible..
I'm in the process of rebuilding the motor now, but guess what?
I made the stupid mistake of NOT taking any pictures while disassembling, thinking I'd rely on web pics.... 🙁
Now I have two extra washers that I can't figure where they're going... they're the red-brown bakelites in the bottom of the picture. (sorry, I can't upload pictures yet I guess, not enough posts???)
I can't see them in the pics of this rebuild either: ƒg�[ƒŒƒ“ƒX THORENS model TD 124
Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance.
I made the stupid mistake of NOT taking any pictures while disassembling, thinking I'd rely on web pics.... 🙁
Now I have two extra washers that I can't figure where they're going... they're the red-brown bakelites in the bottom of the picture. (sorry, I can't upload pictures yet I guess, not enough posts???)
I can't see them in the pics of this rebuild either: ƒg�[ƒŒƒ“ƒX THORENS model TD 124
Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance.