Well I managed to find a veritable treasure trove of thrust-plate-less (is that a phrase?
) end cap assemblies on eBay. The interesting thing is that this particular $69 Australian made bronze end cap really had no space for a thrust plate. It was clearly intended by design for the ball to run directly on that fast wearing, soft bronze material. I suspect in a year or so the spindle would have been sitting pretty close to the cap.. Note that it is still offered for sale on eBay as of today. I have very recently started to see one or two bronze end caps with thrust plates included on eBay. I'm using the original Thorens nylatron thrust plate having ground off at least .050" of material from the end cap.
I've heard about the ball over ball thrust bearing design, would have been interesting to try.
Happily of all the ersatz parts I've purchased on eBay the bronze end cap is the only one that isn't doing a good job.
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I recently purchased another end cap on eBay and determined that the height issue I was having with the bronze end cap and the added nylatron thrust plate is pretty endemic. Seems like none of the ones I've tried got the thrust plate height anywhere close to the OEM height, ultimately I ended up machining the bronze end cap completely flat and used a mild steel thrust plate which put the height of the platter very close to the OEM height and no adjustment to the clutch was required. (I want to note that the height error in all cases is at least 75 thousandths and is far more than I am comfortable adjusting for using the clutch mechanism height adjustments.)
The low friction of the steel thrust plate now results in a coast to full stop from 33 1/3 rpm of 105 seconds, this is with the OEM steel ball and 20wt oil.. (Housing filled initially to just slightly above the lower bushing) I'm not sure how much merit there is to this number truthfully speaking and I have the sense that the nylatron thrust plate actually resulted in slightly less bearing noise, but the difference is very subtle and might well be imagined. With the Nylatron thrust plate installed the best coast to full stop time that I achieved was 55 seconds. Interestingly on certain other forums there is quite a lot of bragging about the coasting time. I still haven't gotten to the point of being able to measure affects on the noise floor - so noise performance is anecdotal.
I've just replaced the Thorens OEM belt which now has about 600hrs on it and which regularly makes a bit of a mess on the pulleys after a hundred hours or so of running - and with a very cheap after market belt, one of a pair purchased on eBay. This belt previously made more noise than the Thorens belt, but now with all of the other work I've done it actually runs very quietly. Today I ordered a few more.
The low friction of the steel thrust plate now results in a coast to full stop from 33 1/3 rpm of 105 seconds, this is with the OEM steel ball and 20wt oil.. (Housing filled initially to just slightly above the lower bushing) I'm not sure how much merit there is to this number truthfully speaking and I have the sense that the nylatron thrust plate actually resulted in slightly less bearing noise, but the difference is very subtle and might well be imagined. With the Nylatron thrust plate installed the best coast to full stop time that I achieved was 55 seconds. Interestingly on certain other forums there is quite a lot of bragging about the coasting time.
I still haven't gotten to the point of being able to measure affects on the noise floor - so noise performance is anecdotal.I've just replaced the Thorens OEM belt which now has about 600hrs on it and which regularly makes a bit of a mess on the pulleys after a hundred hours or so of running - and with a very cheap after market belt, one of a pair purchased on eBay. This belt previously made more noise than the Thorens belt, but now with all of the other work I've done it actually runs very quietly. Today I ordered a few more.
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I had that bronze end cap since a year lying around and a month ago decided to put it on...took off the original thrust plate and with the original ball it is impossible to use the cluch system, so I just used the original thrust plate, ball and screwed the bronze thrust plate under , everything is back in order and surprize, the turntable sounds better, the speed is more stable and platter comes to right speed after half revolution , it took two revolutions before .
Looking for TD-124 Parts
Some months ago I was given a badly cannibalized TD-124 series I table - originally I was going to use this as a parts unit for my 124/II, but have decided I could use a second one of these tables and am going to try and find some of the missing parts for this one. This unit was neglected and the paint is a little rough but acceptable for the intended purpose after a thorough clean and wax.
I've serviced the motor, and the drive train is largely intact as I have the intermediate pulley, and idler assembly. What I am missing are all of the components associated with the speed change mechanism like the speed change drum, linkages, springs, pins, and the linkages to the eddy current brake. I also need the steel ribbon, and all of the components associated with the knob. Any of these parts even in isolation could be of interest.
Currently I am close to being able to run it as a TD-121. Some improvisation and a little machine shop work will get me that far.
The great irony in all of this is that last week there were a bunch of the exact parts I needed on eBay, followed the auctions and forgot to bid when the time came.
If you have any odd parts that might fit the bill, please PM me and we can talk. (I'll probably need to see some pix to know whether it is a part I need or not.)
Some months ago I was given a badly cannibalized TD-124 series I table - originally I was going to use this as a parts unit for my 124/II, but have decided I could use a second one of these tables and am going to try and find some of the missing parts for this one. This unit was neglected and the paint is a little rough but acceptable for the intended purpose after a thorough clean and wax.
I've serviced the motor, and the drive train is largely intact as I have the intermediate pulley, and idler assembly. What I am missing are all of the components associated with the speed change mechanism like the speed change drum, linkages, springs, pins, and the linkages to the eddy current brake. I also need the steel ribbon, and all of the components associated with the knob. Any of these parts even in isolation could be of interest.
Currently I am close to being able to run it as a TD-121. Some improvisation and a little machine shop work will get me that far.
The great irony in all of this is that last week there were a bunch of the exact parts I needed on eBay, followed the auctions and forgot to bid when the time came.
If you have any odd parts that might fit the bill, please PM me and we can talk. (I'll probably need to see some pix to know whether it is a part I need or not.)
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I suspect from the description above that your problem was the reverse of mine. I suspect the nylatron thrust plate is actually marginally quieter than the steel one I am using, but it is acceptable. The friction is certainly very low compared to the nylatron.
Hi Kevin,
I can't help you with the rest, but I now have a fair amount of experience making a DIY metal drive ribbon for the speed change mechanism. *IF* you find an OEM one (or two, one for me), let me know. Mirko, (SQ38S), the guy from Calif (on ebay) that seems to make everything, told me he can make one, but it will be expensive. I made my own out of a small tape measure. I used my old one as a pattern. If you have any other questions, let me know.
Gene
I can't help you with the rest, but I now have a fair amount of experience making a DIY metal drive ribbon for the speed change mechanism. *IF* you find an OEM one (or two, one for me), let me know. Mirko, (SQ38S), the guy from Calif (on ebay) that seems to make everything, told me he can make one, but it will be expensive. I made my own out of a small tape measure. I used my old one as a pattern. If you have any other questions, let me know.
Gene
Hola
I see Kevin that you have too much time on your hand;0) I have to say that I've sourced used Hadcock GH242SE arm for Music Maker and although much better than Grace there is nothing to write about it really. I'm at the point that I want to send TD124 out and pay shipping both ways to check whats wrong with me Anybody near Detroit MI or Chicago IL with experience and good Thorens TD124 MkI setup? Regards, L
I see Kevin that you have too much time on your hand;0) I have to say that I've sourced used Hadcock GH242SE arm for Music Maker and although much better than Grace there is nothing to write about it really. I'm at the point that I want to send TD124 out and pay shipping both ways to check whats wrong with me
Anybody near Detroit MI or Chicago IL with experience and good Thorens TD124 MkI setup? Regards, L
Hola
I see Kevin that you have too much time on your hand;0) I have to say that I've sourced used Hadcock GH242SE arm for Music Maker and although much better than Grace there is nothing to write about it really. I'm at the point that I want to send TD124 out and pay shipping both ways to check whats wrong with me
All that spare time comes from having been unemployed for some months, happily that has now come to an end.. New job starts Monday..
Finally I'm actually pretty happy with my table, but some of your early comments about its klunkiness may hit closer to the mark than I acknowledged at the time, although I am certainly getting a lot more out of this thing than I have been able to do with anything else I've owned heretofore. It's quirky, but I love what it does for music in my system, a big step forward for me, and a huge bargain overall given what I paid for it.
It has taken an insane amount of work though fun it may have been. Despite its extremely low hours and lack of wear and tear it had some odd issues I've not encountered with the few other 124s I've worked on. Finely polishing the pulleys is what finally put me over the top - it's not coincidence that all the Schopper pictures show very shiny pulleys. It made it really quiet... finally..
Turns out the cheapest belt sold on eBay may be the best as well once the pulley is polished.Your exposure to really great properly set up tables may be greater than mine or it might just be that my expectations are really very different than yours. Possibly there is something still amiss with your table - this is something I could perhaps help you with, you can PM me for my email address and we could discuss further.
I'm wondering whether the ancient arm, and cartridge set up I use which is an SME 3009 Series II, and ZU DL-103 just complement this table in a way that some more modern, and usually more capable set ups don't? (Synergy?)
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Gene, the tip on the tape measure is a good one, and will probably be my recourse if I find all of the parts I need. I suspect standard metal banding is not flexible enough.
This unit has got to a low budget project unless I score the parts needed to make it whole again in which case a ground up restoration including a repaint might be justifiable - will probably prove to be the case if I am patient enough.
Kevin
No, I'm not very advanced in analog nor have high expectations. I'm very much a beginner notoriously poor with a luck to find some bargains);0. I heard a few good systems but I could not relate the sound to single element in chain be it TT or an amp. I think I did a minimum to get reasonable sound from Thorens and similarly to you my example was little used . It is sort of pleasant sounding but nowhere near the cult status it enjoys. When I took it to a VPI dealer few years back I had Grado Sonata $500 cart on Grace 707. Modest VPI Scout with cheap Benz simply destroyed it in all regards. My Thorens sounds sort of flat and small , without much impact . Rega P9 is explosive and dynamic with big soundstage and life while Thorens is just boring and sort of mechanical. I blamed it on arm but changed to Hadcock and even though it is better the basic character remains and I much prefer moded CD player. Something is wrong and I think I need to start with it from the ground up . Take it out of plinth and check everything again. It holds the speed, bearing seems Ok no play, It's not that quiet but I never heard any other example so I have no comparison, mabe I should isolate it from plinth somehow? Mabe it just sounds like that and I should go back to my planet and live happily ever after?
No, I'm not very advanced in analog nor have high expectations. I'm very much a beginner notoriously poor with a luck to find some bargains);0. I heard a few good systems but I could not relate the sound to single element in chain be it TT or an amp. I think I did a minimum to get reasonable sound from Thorens and similarly to you my example was little used . It is sort of pleasant sounding but nowhere near the cult status it enjoys. When I took it to a VPI dealer few years back I had Grado Sonata $500 cart on Grace 707. Modest VPI Scout with cheap Benz simply destroyed it in all regards. My Thorens sounds sort of flat and small , without much impact . Rega P9 is explosive and dynamic with big soundstage and life while Thorens is just boring and sort of mechanical. I blamed it on arm but changed to Hadcock and even though it is better the basic character remains and I much prefer moded CD player. Something is wrong and I think I need to start with it from the ground up . Take it out of plinth and check everything again. It holds the speed, bearing seems Ok no play, It's not that quiet but I never heard any other example so I have no comparison, mabe I should isolate it from plinth somehow? Mabe it just sounds like that and I should go back to my planet and live happily ever after?
I have been enjoying my TD124 a lot more after replacing the 3012 with an ET-2 last year. Great turntable but in many respects i enjoy my digital front end more. Especially once the added annoyance the onwnership of several thousand LPs brings is taken into account.
Still, a great thread and many thanks to Kevin for all the useful info.
Kevin
No, I'm not very advanced in analog nor have high expectations. I'm very much a beginner notoriously poor with a luck to find some bargains);0. I heard a few good systems but I could not relate the sound to single element in chain be it TT or an amp. I think I did a minimum to get reasonable sound from Thorens and similarly to you my example was little used . It is sort of pleasant sounding but nowhere near the cult status it enjoys. When I took it to a VPI dealer few years back I had Grado Sonata $500 cart on Grace 707. Modest VPI Scout with cheap Benz simply destroyed it in all regards. My Thorens sounds sort of flat and small , without much impact . Rega P9 is explosive and dynamic with big soundstage and life while Thorens is just boring and sort of mechanical. I blamed it on arm but changed to Hadcock and even though it is better the basic character remains and I much prefer moded CD player. Something is wrong and I think I need to start with it from the ground up . Take it out of plinth and check everything again. It holds the speed, bearing seems Ok no play, It's not that quiet but I never heard any other example so I have no comparison, mabe I should isolate it from plinth somehow? Mabe it just sounds like that and I should go back to my planet and live happily ever after?
Some very interesting and descriptive comments on the sound of your TD-124 - it doesn't sound like your expectations are all that different than mine, but your results seem to be. There is nothing at all reticent sounding about my TD-124/II and I think that was the beginning of my fascination with this table, it's big, immersive in fact sound stage wise, energetic, and powerful - fills my room, and I have depth where the recording has it. Hyperbole perhaps yes.. I'm also getting about as much detail as I have ever heard out of a turntable despite the clear limitations of both my arm (a tweaked 3009 sans bedplate grommets, and anti-skating removed) and my cartridge which is a derivative of the DL-103 complete with its warts. The best part of this is that no two records sound alike so even if my table has a personality it still allows the specific qualities of a recording to come through loud and clear.
Yeah, I'm completely obsessive, but I have been paid back in spades I guess. It was really a lot of work and frustration, and some ongoing maintenance is clearly necessary as well.
Mine achieves speed stability in just a few minutes of operation and is both audibly and mechanically very quiet (now), the background is about as close to black as I have achieved.
It now takes 105 seconds to coast to dead stop once the power is shut off and this is with 20wt electric motor oil in the main bearing, which incidentally I fill until oil almost spills out of the top of the housing with the spindle fully seated. (This requires the oil to be a mm or more above the top of the bottom bushing in the housing.) Regardless of what others may tell you I have found this makes the bearing run incredibly quietly, and it won't otherwise. (True on three different tables I have worked on.)
I'm running on geltec motor bushings, and also have geltec bushings on the chassis mounts, and the platter has geltec dots. Despite my mis-givings these work really well and help to make this table quiet, and make no mistake it is quiet, notably more so than the TD-125 I had previously which was sort of the bete noire of turntables I've owned. Actually I haven't been at all happy with any of the tables I've owned until now, the SME 20 probably with the same amount of work and attention to detail would have worked for me, but it didn't get it.
Motor torque and the smoothness of its delivery is surprisingly important as at one point I was having some problems with the table running fast unless I really cranked down on the eddy brake magnet spacing and so I thought I would change the motor tapping to the 150V tap, and despite having enough torque to get up to speed, etc.., it sounded nothing like it had before, and very lackluster in fact.. Very odd.
I use heavier lubricants (unlike many posting elsewhere) and also it occurred to me that running on 50Hz the belt tension and hence losses are much higher than running on 60Hz due to the difference in motor pulley diameter. Belt noise has been addressed by carefully polishing both pulleys until they were quite shiny.
Rebuilding the motor is necessary - if you haven't done this I encourage you to do it even if performance seems satisfactory, and a set of new motor bearings from The Analog Depot are worth the money as they will assure the tight clearances required to tame motor vibration and resonances.
The arm board is a Brazilian Cherry wood and is extremely dense, hard and rigid. (Kind of difficult to cut too) Accidentally or not I think this arm board was a very good choice, I've tried several boards made of other materials and this seems to be quite a bit more audible than I would have expected. I was not too thrilled with the plywood board that was on the table when I got it. You might want to experiment with this - jec965 on eBay sells this very board for just $30.
The one other thing I have done is replace the stock mat with a Merrill-Scillia mat, and this on first observation seemed to suck the air out of the performance, but what I found was this was actually a serious coloration produced by the hard rubber mat, and probably to some extent what it is sitting on. Once I accepted this I focused on arm geometry and understanding what was going on between the cartridge, arm, and table - in the end I gained far more than I thought I had lost initially.
I'm still running it in the crappiest plywood plinth you can imagine, nothing in particular to recommend it, and yet it doesn't seem to be hurting anything either. I should have my slate plinth in June sometime, and the Schick arm will arrive here next month. I didn't pay very much for my table, but have invested a lot of time and thought (and almost as much money as I paid for it) in its rehab.
I know there are better tables out there, but I will never be able to afford the money required to make a meaningful improvement so I'll settle for this - from my perspective it's not much of a compromise as I haven't honestly heard a more competent TT in a system that sufficiently highlighted the improvement in performance on musical material I know well, and ultimately I will also reach the limits of the resolution in my system. (Apparently not there yet) My digital incidentally is not quite a match for this thing through Partridge transformers and my D3A/5842 gyrator loaded phono stage - digital at 2496 it is relatively comparable and a delight to listen to, but it doesn't better it in most areas, and can't match the ease or flow of the music in analog, note lower res and SACD definitely suffer in the comparison, and I think I have reasonably good digital. (SACD is a modified Sony SCD-777ES, and my dac is a 24 bit homebrew based on mono configured PCM1794As, CD transport is a variant on the Peter Daniels Shigaclone theme.)
I've rambled on over long, can you tell us what you have and haven't done to this table? And practice makes for eventual perfection. (Maybe we never quite get there..
)As an aside I had a Grado Platinum Reference which I found to be terribly uninvolving and lifeless on two different turntables on the SME 3009 Series II arm, hence the switch in desperation to the DL-103, maybe something to think about? (It never made it on the 124..)
The Bren1 record weight I use also made a significant improvement particularly in solidifying the bottom end and the dynamics.. Lots of other things too subtle to even mention.. Yeah, audiophile speak..
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My biggest problem with records beside the space they take up is that I have to get up roughly every 20 minutes to turn them over and/or to play something else..
I enjoy not having to work so hard when listening to digital, but in my system analog wins hands down on the performance front in the areas that matter most to me.I settled on the Schick arm (still waiting for it to arrive) because the 3012 I thought shared many of the same flaws as the 3009 even though I thought it sounded noticeably better than the 3009. I discovered somewhat to my surprise that the bed plate grommets on these arms really hurt the sound in a lot of ways if the turntable in question is quiet enough to get away without them. Not only did they seem to obscure a lot of detail (like wool in my ears) they also really softened up the bass and made it soft, slow and undefined sounding IMHO. Removing them was like getting a new arm, I was stunned, and continue to be amazed at how much better this arm sounds than I imagined. Removing them also seems to have slightly improved arm behavior in the warp frequency region as well - tracking is noticeably improved, although a heavier headshell helps too. (The lightweight S2 headshell is too light even with the Zu, and additional mass at the headshell helps tracking.)
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Hi Kevin,
Funny how our experiences are so alike, but some are so different. When it comes to main bearings, there are so many ways of lubricating them. I, like you, at first filled the bearing so it spilled lubricant out the top when I seated the shaft. I don't do that now, and I have noticed absolutely no difference between the way I do it now, which is clean the bearing with alcohol in a ultrasonic cleaner, (it took about 6 hours to get all of the old oil out of the bronze oilite bearing.) I then filled the bearing housing with "turbine oil", (20W) and used a bathroom heater to help it soak in, again, for about 6 hours. I then drained the oil, and left a spot of oil at the bottom for the thrust pad and ball, but thats it. BTW, I have 2 complete main bearings, and tried both, and they both are dead quiet and both got the same treatment. My theory is the oilite bearing will hold oil for years, and about every 2 years, I will renew the lubricant.
I did also polish the pully's, but also used talcum powder on the belt sourced from Brinkman, and having "THORENS" printed on it.
BTW, I love my 3012 arm, and have no complaints, except for the arm lowering a bit too fast. I am working on that though, (a good place to get heavy solicone fluid is from hobby shops, they use it for differentials in RC cars.)
Gene
Funny how our experiences are so alike, but some are so different. When it comes to main bearings, there are so many ways of lubricating them. I, like you, at first filled the bearing so it spilled lubricant out the top when I seated the shaft. I don't do that now, and I have noticed absolutely no difference between the way I do it now, which is clean the bearing with alcohol in a ultrasonic cleaner, (it took about 6 hours to get all of the old oil out of the bronze oilite bearing.) I then filled the bearing housing with "turbine oil", (20W) and used a bathroom heater to help it soak in, again, for about 6 hours. I then drained the oil, and left a spot of oil at the bottom for the thrust pad and ball, but thats it. BTW, I have 2 complete main bearings, and tried both, and they both are dead quiet and both got the same treatment. My theory is the oilite bearing will hold oil for years, and about every 2 years, I will renew the lubricant.
I did also polish the pully's, but also used talcum powder on the belt sourced from Brinkman, and having "THORENS" printed on it.
BTW, I love my 3012 arm, and have no complaints, except for the arm lowering a bit too fast. I am working on that though, (a good place to get heavy solicone fluid is from hobby shops, they use it for differentials in RC cars.)
Gene
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