Hi Gene,
It sounds to me like the top portion of those spindles is chromed from what you describe. I will take a careful look at the two MKI I have been working on when the opportunity next arises. I realized with the spacer for the zamac platter installed on my spindle that I can't actually see the area of my spindle where the plating run-out would be occurring. Mine in any event is completely unworn.
I have some vague recollection of seeing some minor issues with the finish on one of the two MKI spindles I was working on.
My table has very low hours so the clutch mechanism doesn't appear to have any significant wear, however the load on my clutch includes an additional 900gms that would not have been the case back in the day so I expect that tape to wear more rapidly than would normally be the case.
It sounds to me like the top portion of those spindles is chromed from what you describe. I will take a careful look at the two MKI I have been working on when the opportunity next arises. I realized with the spacer for the zamac platter installed on my spindle that I can't actually see the area of my spindle where the plating run-out would be occurring. Mine in any event is completely unworn.
I have some vague recollection of seeing some minor issues with the finish on one of the two MKI spindles I was working on.
My table has very low hours so the clutch mechanism doesn't appear to have any significant wear, however the load on my clutch includes an additional 900gms that would not have been the case back in the day so I expect that tape to wear more rapidly than would normally be the case.
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My TD 124 serial number 49002
Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread. It has been a pleasure to add my two cents, and I hope to add more as time goes on. Here is a picture of my TD 124, notice the SME 3012 series II with Stanton 681 EEE installed. I aligned it with a Dennesen geometric Soundtracktor. I had to add ballast to the headshell, btw, to get it to balance. I would have preferred not adding ballast, but I need to buy/make a smaller counterweight to make that happen. When I first got the TT and SME, it had a SPU installed, foolishly I discarded it because I didn't realize they could be re-tipped. I now have 2 main platters, the Zamac platter, (the TT came with it installed), and the cast iron platter, (off of Ebay) lucky for me, the iron platter came with a complete platter bearing installed, so I have two.
Thanks again to all who have contributed to this thread. It has been a pleasure to add my two cents, and I hope to add more as time goes on. Here is a picture of my TD 124, notice the SME 3012 series II with Stanton 681 EEE installed. I aligned it with a Dennesen geometric Soundtracktor. I had to add ballast to the headshell, btw, to get it to balance. I would have preferred not adding ballast, but I need to buy/make a smaller counterweight to make that happen. When I first got the TT and SME, it had a SPU installed, foolishly I discarded it because I didn't realize they could be re-tipped. I now have 2 main platters, the Zamac platter, (the TT came with it installed), and the cast iron platter, (off of Ebay) lucky for me, the iron platter came with a complete platter bearing installed, so I have two.
Attachments
Ouch, and deja vu, as I did exactly the same thing with an SPU G/T in the early days of the Internet, not realizing one day I would kill for one..
My plan is to possibly acquire an SPU G series cartridge way down the road. After the Schick arm and a slate plinth I hope to get a Schopper platter, so I figure an SPU is a few years off I would guess.
WRT to your arm a Denon DL-103 in a UWE or Audiokinetic body or the Zu/Denon DL-103 would be an amazing match for your 3012. I almost bought a 3012, but after some careful thought decided on a new Schick instead. The arm tube mass of the 3012 is a bit high for a 681EEE, and the weight yours is equipped with is for the SPU. Just to give you some perspective your arm is worth anywhere from $1K - $1.5K depending on condition. Even a stock DL-103 will do nicely in that arm.. You would need a pair of transformers - I'm using the amazingly inexpensive ($100 a pair) vintage Partridge 977 - gain is only 15dB but in my system that is sufficient and they sound as good/better than any transformers I've tried, including some exotics at over $1K.
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Kevin,
I like to keep an eye on Ebay, and long ago realized the excellent points/advice you are making. lets just say that I got my TD 124/3012 entirely free, and am still in shock. For now, since I am the world's cheapest vintage audiophile, (Marantz 10b, ($25, Macintosh MC 30, (gift), MC75, $25, MI 75, (gift), Paragon 12A preamp, (trade), (and lots more), I think you get the point, I will keep my eyes open for that elusive deal, wherever I find it.
I like to keep an eye on Ebay, and long ago realized the excellent points/advice you are making. lets just say that I got my TD 124/3012 entirely free, and am still in shock. For now, since I am the world's cheapest vintage audiophile, (Marantz 10b, ($25, Macintosh MC 30, (gift), MC75, $25, MI 75, (gift), Paragon 12A preamp, (trade), (and lots more), I think you get the point, I will keep my eyes open for that elusive deal, wherever I find it.
Sure thing! If you need it as a PDF, just shoot me a PM. I have it and it's just under 1 MB.
There's a very mercenary fellow currently parting out a working TD-124 on eBay, how sad.. Just look for the $539 motor, and upper platter auctions and you'll know who I mean. I can't imagine at those prices he'd have any luck. (Perhaps selfishly I really hope not.)
I did finally decide to purchase a Schick 12" arm for my TD-124/II as it is a keeper, and ordered one early this week. I expect to have it in about 10 weeks.. A slate plinth is in the works as well.
I did finally decide to purchase a Schick 12" arm for my TD-124/II as it is a keeper, and ordered one early this week. I expect to have it in about 10 weeks.. A slate plinth is in the works as well.
TD 124 metal band, etc
Kevin, I agree about people doing this. *IF* there is a non-fixable problem though, that could make another fixable.
QUESTION:
Does anyone have a source for the metal band that is used to shift the speeds and turn on/off the Td124? I broke mine at one of the holes to the outside (don't ask) LOL
Gene
Kevin, I agree about people doing this. *IF* there is a non-fixable problem though, that could make another fixable.
QUESTION:
Does anyone have a source for the metal band that is used to shift the speeds and turn on/off the Td124? I broke mine at one of the holes to the outside (don't ask) LOL
Gene
That's great. I can't wait to hear your review of that arm. I was trying to talk myself into getting one too, but the price of $1400+ is a bit much for me. I will have to sell off my extra Thorens 124 to make it happen.
To keep me happy in the mean time, I've decided to try and build a single pivot arm like the 'Nanook 219'. Have you built yours and tried it out yet?
Regards,
David
I have only just stumbled across this thread, which I have quickly scanned.
The two points I would add - other than those made in my contribution to Kevinar's blog, really concern the early posts about the mass of the Ortofon SPU cartridges and the Grace 707 arm. We used to use both of these items when I and some friends tried to get the best out of 124s. many years ago. Firstly slate is in my experience the best plinth material - and also makes pretty good arm-boards.
The SPU cartridge of yesteryear is I believe grossly hampered by the big plug in headshell. Take the cartridge out of it and fit it in a modern really solid headshell. To facilitate this you will need a pair of small rectangular spacer-bars to fit between the cartridge and head-shell to allow a recess for the bump at the top. This makes the cartridge quite a lot more articulate and faster in response. It also very much widens the choice of arm you can use. We found the best to be the old FR 64s.
The Grace is let down by the same problem...a less than rigid plastic head-shell. You will need to have a machinist make you a new one from alloy and also rewire the arm with decent wire. Stick to medium or higher compliance cartridges rather than the low compliance - not only do they generally require higher mass arms but they generate a LOT of physical energy and lower mass arms can allow them to jump around in the groove.
The bearings also can - and do - complain.
The two points I would add - other than those made in my contribution to Kevinar's blog, really concern the early posts about the mass of the Ortofon SPU cartridges and the Grace 707 arm. We used to use both of these items when I and some friends tried to get the best out of 124s. many years ago. Firstly slate is in my experience the best plinth material - and also makes pretty good arm-boards.
The SPU cartridge of yesteryear is I believe grossly hampered by the big plug in headshell. Take the cartridge out of it and fit it in a modern really solid headshell. To facilitate this you will need a pair of small rectangular spacer-bars to fit between the cartridge and head-shell to allow a recess for the bump at the top. This makes the cartridge quite a lot more articulate and faster in response. It also very much widens the choice of arm you can use. We found the best to be the old FR 64s.
The Grace is let down by the same problem...a less than rigid plastic head-shell. You will need to have a machinist make you a new one from alloy and also rewire the arm with decent wire. Stick to medium or higher compliance cartridges rather than the low compliance - not only do they generally require higher mass arms but they generate a LOT of physical energy and lower mass arms can allow them to jump around in the groove.
The bearings also can - and do - complain.
idler wheel
Hello everybody, I've read this thread with great interest since I'm the owner of a td 124 that is still in need of restoration..main problem is the idler wheel...during the last year I've bought 3 of them and they all have the same problem, as you can see in this video I've made
new idler on Vimeo
anybody has an idea about what could be the problem here? four idler wheels and none of them spins true? seems strange to me
Hello everybody, I've read this thread with great interest since I'm the owner of a td 124 that is still in need of restoration..main problem is the idler wheel...during the last year I've bought 3 of them and they all have the same problem, as you can see in this video I've made
new idler on Vimeo
anybody has an idea about what could be the problem here? four idler wheels and none of them spins true? seems strange to me
Your video allows us to see that the idler wheel does indeed demonstrate some runout. However this runout is on the lateral plane, which will not adversely affect sound quality....unless the wheel rubs against a shoulder on the step pulley, then there will be an interruption in speed stability. (way bad) Otherwise, what counts is that the idler wheel spin concentric (true) to its axis of rotation. The video does not illustrate if there is any problem on that axis.
Another thing to check is that the idler tire is free of any flat spots around its periphery. Generally, the TD124 idler wheels don't tend to have that problem, though it is possible.
Still another thing to check is the idler wheel bushing to shaft clearance. The wheel should spin free but not exhibit any slop in the bushing.
-Steve
Main Bearing Service and Those Aftermarket End Caps
I have heard plenty of bragging over the months of coast times of up to 90 seconds or so from 33 1/3 rpm after shutting the motor off. Mine never coasted for anything like this long. At its best 45 seconds was it, lately it seemed to dropping into the under 20 second range which was getting my attention..
I periodically clean the motor and intermediate pulley to keep it running quietly as my table gets an average of 50 hrs a week of use currently. Since i finished the restoration I have logged over 600 hrs of use!
I decided to service the main bearing as I did not get all of the old oil out of the bushings previously. Today the main bearing spent about two hours soaking in lacquer thinner. In order to remove the bearing with the aftermarket end cap I had to remove the cap first, when I did this I noted a rather excessive dimple where the ball contacts the face of the bronze end cap. This dimple was nearly 3.5mm across, this is wear since I installed it in November, and was obviously increasing friction and bearing noise as well.
The moral of the story I think is to get an upgrade kit that includes a steel or hard nylon thrust plate. I reinstalled the original thrust plate after modifying the end cap to accommodate it.
The issue I currently have as a result of doing this work is that the thrust plate is probably too thick, and it is crowned. I turned it over when I installed it and am hoping in a day or two it will flatten out. I have not adjusted the brake which is currently non functional because the platter is about 2.54mm higher than it was previously, however if the thrust plate flattens out this will no longer be an issue. I'll see, if not I will get a much thinner and flat thrust plate and possibly a new end cap as well.
The message here I think is to get an engineered cap from Mirko, and not one of those exotic bronze, gun metal ones as they wear excessively.
Overall performance is slightly better, it takes a little less time to reach speed equilibrium.
The other thrust of this service was to further polish the motor and intermediate pulleys to improve belt behavior. It seems to have paid big dividends as the mechanical noise is now much less. The surfaces feel very smooth now as compared to originally when they felt rather rough. The belt chatters much less now. I am not sure why this table was so noisy due to pulley surface corrosion/oxidization as it seems to have been stored in a pretty benign environment and is in rather nice shape otherwise.
The slate plinth should be arriving in June sometime and the Schick arm should be here in April.
I am still running the SME 3009 Series II arm and the ZU DL-103-1. I have stopped used anti-skating as the cartridge clearly performs better without any. I guess this is due to the stylus geometry (spherical) and the high tracking force being used. (2.5gms)
This one at least seems to be the turntable analog to old British sports cars. It needs continuous and seemingly endless if minor maintenance to perform at its best. Nothing major, but the belt should be talced and the pulley surfaces cleaned regularly for quietest operation, or perhaps it really is that Thakker OEM belt. It certainly leaves lots of cruddy goo on the pulleys. It must be the belt..
In a moment of acknowledged possible self delusion it seems to sound even better.
This table may not be for everyone, but I am certainly getting plenty of auditory thrills out of it even now. Can't wait for all of the other bits and pieces to fall into place. (My digital gear sounds just terrible next to this thing, can't listen to anything else.)
I have heard plenty of bragging over the months of coast times of up to 90 seconds or so from 33 1/3 rpm after shutting the motor off. Mine never coasted for anything like this long. At its best 45 seconds was it, lately it seemed to dropping into the under 20 second range which was getting my attention..
I periodically clean the motor and intermediate pulley to keep it running quietly as my table gets an average of 50 hrs a week of use currently. Since i finished the restoration I have logged over 600 hrs of use!
I decided to service the main bearing as I did not get all of the old oil out of the bushings previously. Today the main bearing spent about two hours soaking in lacquer thinner. In order to remove the bearing with the aftermarket end cap I had to remove the cap first, when I did this I noted a rather excessive dimple where the ball contacts the face of the bronze end cap. This dimple was nearly 3.5mm across, this is wear since I installed it in November, and was obviously increasing friction and bearing noise as well.
The moral of the story I think is to get an upgrade kit that includes a steel or hard nylon thrust plate. I reinstalled the original thrust plate after modifying the end cap to accommodate it.
The issue I currently have as a result of doing this work is that the thrust plate is probably too thick, and it is crowned. I turned it over when I installed it and am hoping in a day or two it will flatten out. I have not adjusted the brake which is currently non functional because the platter is about 2.54mm higher than it was previously, however if the thrust plate flattens out this will no longer be an issue. I'll see, if not I will get a much thinner and flat thrust plate and possibly a new end cap as well.
The message here I think is to get an engineered cap from Mirko, and not one of those exotic bronze, gun metal ones as they wear excessively.
Overall performance is slightly better, it takes a little less time to reach speed equilibrium.
The other thrust of this service was to further polish the motor and intermediate pulleys to improve belt behavior. It seems to have paid big dividends as the mechanical noise is now much less. The surfaces feel very smooth now as compared to originally when they felt rather rough. The belt chatters much less now. I am not sure why this table was so noisy due to pulley surface corrosion/oxidization as it seems to have been stored in a pretty benign environment and is in rather nice shape otherwise.
The slate plinth should be arriving in June sometime and the Schick arm should be here in April.
I am still running the SME 3009 Series II arm and the ZU DL-103-1. I have stopped used anti-skating as the cartridge clearly performs better without any. I guess this is due to the stylus geometry (spherical) and the high tracking force being used. (2.5gms)
This one at least seems to be the turntable analog to old British sports cars. It needs continuous and seemingly endless if minor maintenance to perform at its best. Nothing major, but the belt should be talced and the pulley surfaces cleaned regularly for quietest operation, or perhaps it really is that Thakker OEM belt. It certainly leaves lots of cruddy goo on the pulleys. It must be the belt..
In a moment of acknowledged possible self delusion it seems to sound even better.
This table may not be for everyone, but I am certainly getting plenty of auditory thrills out of it even now. Can't wait for all of the other bits and pieces to fall into place. (My digital gear sounds just terrible next to this thing, can't listen to anything else.)
Attachments
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I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but the platter height has dropped noticeably in the last hour, so hopefully the thrust plate is flattening out.
Speed stability is definitely better as well as compared to recent weeks. It seems to get to full speed a little quicker now. While I have not yet measured coasting time, it seems much longer. (Will measure)
Incidentally the motor which I have not talked about lately is now extremely quiet, you can't really hear it at all over the other noises with the platter installed. The distance where any noise is audible is much closer in now as well. So progress...
I'm hoping eventually I will find all the pieces to restore my parts unit for a reasonable price. Some of them appear from time to time on eBay.. I wouldn't mind having a second one at all..
Speed stability is definitely better as well as compared to recent weeks. It seems to get to full speed a little quicker now. While I have not yet measured coasting time, it seems much longer. (Will measure)
Incidentally the motor which I have not talked about lately is now extremely quiet, you can't really hear it at all over the other noises with the platter installed. The distance where any noise is audible is much closer in now as well. So progress...
I'm hoping eventually I will find all the pieces to restore my parts unit for a reasonable price. Some of them appear from time to time on eBay.. I wouldn't mind having a second one at all..
The platter on my 124 takes app. 2 minutes to stop (from 33 1/3). I got original bearing, but I added thin teflon plate instead of original nylon one. I cut the teflon one from the end cap of the russian teflon capacitor
Before teflon plate coast time was app. 90 seconds.
I'm using 10w40 Selenia motor oil.
Before teflon plate coast time was app. 90 seconds.
I'm using 10w40 Selenia motor oil.
Mainbearing revision runout time
About the runout time from the platter its my experience that for a good speed stability noise this must be min.60 sec starting on 33 RPM.
If this a problem the friction from the bearing is to much replace the nylon trustplate with steel ball then cleaning, polish the sinterbronze bushings ,relube , and most important polish the main bearing very well .
I do this on a small lathe especialy scratches on the axes must be removed when possible !!
The sinterbearings itsself must be changed when they have to much clearence or are damaged inside , sometimes you can use the old bearings aswell after a good cleaning etc.
Volken
About the runout time from the platter its my experience that for a good speed stability noise this must be min.60 sec starting on 33 RPM.
If this a problem the friction from the bearing is to much replace the nylon trustplate with steel ball then cleaning, polish the sinterbronze bushings ,relube , and most important polish the main bearing very well .
I do this on a small lathe especialy scratches on the axes must be removed when possible !!
The sinterbearings itsself must be changed when they have to much clearence or are damaged inside , sometimes you can use the old bearings aswell after a good cleaning etc.
Volken
My table had extremely low hours when I got it, probably less than a couple of hundred hours in total, but it had sat for nearly 40 years unused in a dry air conditioned apartment in Manhattan. My problems have mostly been with congealed lubricant.
Since I cleaned the bearing yesterday, relubed it, and installed the thrust plate the coast time to stop is now about 60 seconds.
The clearances in the main bearing are extremely tight and there is little wear beyond that I have created running the table for the last 600 hours or so.
I'm going to order an end cap with steel thrust plate from sq38s along with a silicon nitride ball a some point soon.
The platter was still sitting about 2 mm higher than optimum for brake adjustment last night, and I've decided not to adjust the brake height, but fix the root cause instead. (I'm assuming that it will not have changed much since last night.) In the mean time I just scoop the record off the platter without stopping the player. Works fine..
This $69 bronze end cap was in no sense a worthwhile upgrade since I will probably not be using it unless I can find a thinner thrust plate somewhere, and will have to replace it. I think it actually significantly increased bearing noise as the running surface wore to conform to a progressively larger area of the ball. The contact point should be as small as possible, due to the softness of the material I suspect the contact area had increased by a fact of roughly 10X or maybe more.
Since I cleaned the bearing yesterday, relubed it, and installed the thrust plate the coast time to stop is now about 60 seconds.
The clearances in the main bearing are extremely tight and there is little wear beyond that I have created running the table for the last 600 hours or so.
I'm going to order an end cap with steel thrust plate from sq38s along with a silicon nitride ball a some point soon.
The platter was still sitting about 2 mm higher than optimum for brake adjustment last night, and I've decided not to adjust the brake height, but fix the root cause instead. (I'm assuming that it will not have changed much since last night.) In the mean time I just scoop the record off the platter without stopping the player. Works fine..
This $69 bronze end cap was in no sense a worthwhile upgrade since I will probably not be using it unless I can find a thinner thrust plate somewhere, and will have to replace it. I think it actually significantly increased bearing noise as the running surface wore to conform to a progressively larger area of the ball. The contact point should be as small as possible, due to the softness of the material I suspect the contact area had increased by a fact of roughly 10X or maybe more.
I'm using a straight 20wt electric motor oil which is the 3 in 1 20wt electric motor oil I've mentioned in previous posts, and my room is fairly cool. (Under 20 C during the winter months most of the time.) I'm pretty sure a lighter oil would result in longer coast down times. The oil I'm using is approximately the same viscosity as the oil Thorens originally recommended. I use it in the motor as well.
FWIW, I've determined that the zoom spout oil is a lighter weight oil, I've heard as low as 10wt, and IME it certainly behaves like a somewhat lighter oil than the known 20wt oil when I do the vertical plate flow test. I've also noticed it turns to gum when exposed to air long term. Not using it any more..
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End Cap and Thrust Plate
No change in platter height since last night so I'm assuming the thrust plate is just too thick. Don't buy any of those bronze end caps on eBay!
The turntable is running much better and comes up to speed quite bit quicker, cold speed is off by very little as compared to before. (Well under 1% I'd swag.)
I've ordered one of Mirko's end caps for reasons that I think make sense. I'll report back on how the replacement performs compared to the bronze end cap. Ironically the new one comes with several thrust plates so I will be able to save the bronze end cap for reuse with one of the extra thrust plates. Will go on the other TT if I finally decide to restore it.
No change in platter height since last night so I'm assuming the thrust plate is just too thick. Don't buy any of those bronze end caps on eBay!
The turntable is running much better and comes up to speed quite bit quicker, cold speed is off by very little as compared to before. (Well under 1% I'd swag.)
I've ordered one of Mirko's end caps for reasons that I think make sense. I'll report back on how the replacement performs compared to the bronze end cap. Ironically the new one comes with several thrust plates so I will be able to save the bronze end cap for reuse with one of the extra thrust plates. Will go on the other TT if I finally decide to restore it.
I can't imagine what you might be referring to. Every (td124) bearing cap I've seen uses a thrust pad between the cap and ball. Thorens used a material called 'nylatron' for their thrust pads. A flat pad of tough nylon.
There was a guy in Pennsylvania offering a kind of ball against ball thrust pad for a while. I think he had these in gunmetal and perhaps other alloys. In that design the thrust pad would contain a bearing ball in a socket designed to match to the bearing ball in the platter bearing shaft. To work well this would require near perfect alignment between upper and lower balls.
I think it was he who was mentioning extra long coast down times. I always felt that the idea was flawed because in the Td124 bearing it would be impossible to hold the close tolerance needed to avoid off center alignment between balls causing a side thrust condition that would increase over time with wear.
The only other ball over ball thrust bearing design I can think of has been used by Simon Yorke in his Series 7 turntable.
-Steve