Croc, I see you're in the state of Washington. I'm in Olympia. I have a bass guitar combo amp I'd like to sell, for lets say $150, just to get rid of it.
Ampeg BA-115, 100W, 15" + HF driver - you could play a small club easily. Would more than handle both guitar and bass at living room levels without breaking a sweat. Reason for offer is because it's just too difficult - for me - to box and ship; I'd take less than it's worth (I see people are willing to pay $300+ shipped) to avoid the pack and ship and risk getting broken by the carrier hassle. PM me if interested.
For that matter, I have a Velodyne 12" that would more than handle the bass part, with that little Fender sitting on top for the treble. probably 100W also. Same reason; I cant build a container good enough that it wont get broken during shipping. I'd like $50, just to get rid of it.
Both these things land in the sweet spot for abuse by shipping handlers. Large, unwieldy containers that are cumbersome to handle and weigh a lot. I just dont have the 2-3" of foam cushion on all six sides, nor a container 4-6" bigger than these boxes are already...
Ampeg BA-115, 100W, 15" + HF driver - you could play a small club easily. Would more than handle both guitar and bass at living room levels without breaking a sweat. Reason for offer is because it's just too difficult - for me - to box and ship; I'd take less than it's worth (I see people are willing to pay $300+ shipped) to avoid the pack and ship and risk getting broken by the carrier hassle. PM me if interested.
For that matter, I have a Velodyne 12" that would more than handle the bass part, with that little Fender sitting on top for the treble. probably 100W also. Same reason; I cant build a container good enough that it wont get broken during shipping. I'd like $50, just to get rid of it.
Both these things land in the sweet spot for abuse by shipping handlers. Large, unwieldy containers that are cumbersome to handle and weigh a lot. I just dont have the 2-3" of foam cushion on all six sides, nor a container 4-6" bigger than these boxes are already...
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This is true. So, how exactly have you earned your authority in my eyes? For example, Randy and check12 have earned it by giving specific and clear (if opinionated) explanations.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned my background. I have some clue...
Is this relevant to my case? You seem to suggest that I won't be able to get loud enough with a hifi speaker. I think that is not so, I don't need a lot of power and volume for my needs. And if the amp/speaker will use 10W instead of 1W of electricity for that one hour that we spend using it daily, I don't think it makes a dent in anything...
I have always devoured books. When I was in year 10 in 1990, our school library acquired English language versions of all the major religious books. I read them. My English teacher saw my interest. He was an active and devout 'religioner'. So he comes and starts talking religion. On seeing his interest, I asked him about some of the inconsistencies in his book and how the same subject appears in some other books....
I am getting the same old feeling here in this discussion. Here is how, please try to digest each word and don't skim this time as you originally mentioned that you did
I bet that you will decline to acknowledge each point as you have done so far
My initial response
A link to a very similar and successful project build logged right here on this forum. Just a link and hey look here type thingy
Agreed?
My second response
With OP showing interest, I gave a concise breakdown of my setup. Specific equipment that has proved to be useful to achieve the home jamming and recording environment. Specific answers to a specific question with specific items of equipment. As well as thought on some future changes. A recommendation to take a serious look at this as I have found it a useful and efficient way to achieve the means. I have taken the time to detail what features of those specific equipments are allowing this use. Those with negative arguments have opened with clear statements of skimming through previous content. Then in clear writing, gone on to say talk about specific items. I cannot fathom this and will give some examples just to clarify my position
Yamaha AG06 to Yamaha MG12XU
(my mixer, doesn't need an extra wide berth at the dock and still a pro item)
The OP is the only one to acknowledge this, while the negative crew call my mix down to consumer equipment levels as the unprofessional way of meeting this end. They have added that consumer level equipment will not handle this
Logitech Z623
2.1 self-contained amplification and speaker system made to THX specs, to create huge dynamics when asked for such by movies and games. It has jfets on the input stages. Wire snake and header in the electronics inside where you can take off any preamplified signal and feed any such signals in and easily access all power amps inside. Built in 3 stereo channels, line level mixers. I made the original references to the new gear from Roland built around self-contained 2.1 systems like their new keyboard and drum amps, as well as the new home learning and practice gear from them. No one has specifically said what properties of the Z623 doesn't check all the boxes. But to do this, one would have to have used it
Man, you keep repeating my words 'live mastering' over and over without thinking about the meaning of those two words. I will help you get on the same page
My Yamaha MG12UX (may not be pro as you keep calling my approach, but I disagree)
Let's speak on this and the mixer that you designed. If they are similar then all is well with the world and that would just make you a poor reader and an early shooter so usual forum stuff and again all is well with the world
My mixer has six channels of preamps, four of these have compressors. All have gain, bass, mid, treble, effects buss, aux send, channel fader, group buss, master bus in that chain. I set master out levels with the peak indicators to get a good recording level with my BR800 multi-track recorder. I have the group outs and send going to the other channels of the BR800 (there is another sore point with the BR00, but that's another story). All other preceding controls per channel are set to create a good, lively level in the summing amp. The monitor out feeds the Logitech Z623 5.1 system, and both the output stage and the Z623 inputs are compatible. The BR00 monitor out connects to the second line input on the Z623, and they are compatible too. The mixers USB loop connects to the PC and FL Studio is the DAW. The mixer has a foot switch input and so do the midi controllers
We plug in with a variety of instruments (Bass, guitar, mics, keyboards, electronic drum rack, IPhone/Pad backing). I leave the master out with settings for hardware and software recording. I set our listening levels with the monitor out. I hope you built one with a level control in your mixer design and do know what this function is for. As we jam, we record some of our live jamming without any further need from us for post-processing. I do the mastering part live by first setting for good recording and setting assorted effects loops and controlling a lot of these with the foot controls while playing. The result is a mix of backing, live instruments and vocals all in one room and all sounding like a CD recording with no brashness
I understand gain staging to be getting the mix set correctly up to the output faders
I call this live mastering and this type of process can be clearly seen in live Sly and Robbie Jazz type recording as well as dancehalls with guest vocalists and musicians. These get recorded live or even broadcast live. Pod casters can do this without the huge pro desks too. Roland have a DJ mixer that does this live too, and this has both consumer and pro compatible outputs. This thing is a full digital monster with audio and midi interface, control surface, hardware samplers, Roland vocal effects module and sequencer on top of all that. It is very expensive, but there is one in my near future to replace and a lot of the traditional gear. The Yamaha footprint is getting a bit old too, and I have my eye on a 6i6 digital mixer that is also full control surface and motorised faders. The gear I have already does a lot of this stuff, but I am in the middle of a studio and workshop renovation and a good time to plan for the new desk and furniture. My Akai FIRE is arriving today
. The new 6i6 and the three midi controllers on the desk. FL up on big screen, virtual DJ on the big screen for karaoke, FL windows on the little screens
Allow me to do a new thread with a log of my studio and workshop build, but without these skimming things and fully discussing specifics. I have most of the new gear already too in their boxes around me. I have a thread running on this forum about an experimental monitor speaker build to possibly replace my Aaron Audio Precision 3. I do have all the test equipment and locations so if these are successful at meeting the objectives then they will be keepers
As I said, all the specifics originally raised were skimmed with self admissions. I have all the time to assist the OP with any queries about my setup but I am done discussing this with the mob
Thanks and regards
Randy
I am getting the same old feeling here in this discussion. Here is how, please try to digest each word and don't skim this time as you originally mentioned that you did
I bet that you will decline to acknowledge each point as you have done so far
My initial response
A link to a very similar and successful project build logged right here on this forum. Just a link and hey look here type thingy
Agreed?
My second response
With OP showing interest, I gave a concise breakdown of my setup. Specific equipment that has proved to be useful to achieve the home jamming and recording environment. Specific answers to a specific question with specific items of equipment. As well as thought on some future changes. A recommendation to take a serious look at this as I have found it a useful and efficient way to achieve the means. I have taken the time to detail what features of those specific equipments are allowing this use. Those with negative arguments have opened with clear statements of skimming through previous content. Then in clear writing, gone on to say talk about specific items. I cannot fathom this and will give some examples just to clarify my position
Yamaha AG06 to Yamaha MG12XU
(my mixer, doesn't need an extra wide berth at the dock and still a pro item)
The OP is the only one to acknowledge this, while the negative crew call my mix down to consumer equipment levels as the unprofessional way of meeting this end. They have added that consumer level equipment will not handle this
Logitech Z623
2.1 self-contained amplification and speaker system made to THX specs, to create huge dynamics when asked for such by movies and games. It has jfets on the input stages. Wire snake and header in the electronics inside where you can take off any preamplified signal and feed any such signals in and easily access all power amps inside. Built in 3 stereo channels, line level mixers. I made the original references to the new gear from Roland built around self-contained 2.1 systems like their new keyboard and drum amps, as well as the new home learning and practice gear from them. No one has specifically said what properties of the Z623 doesn't check all the boxes. But to do this, one would have to have used it
Man, you keep repeating my words 'live mastering' over and over without thinking about the meaning of those two words. I will help you get on the same page
My Yamaha MG12UX (may not be pro as you keep calling my approach, but I disagree)
Let's speak on this and the mixer that you designed. If they are similar then all is well with the world and that would just make you a poor reader and an early shooter so usual forum stuff and again all is well with the world
My mixer has six channels of preamps, four of these have compressors. All have gain, bass, mid, treble, effects buss, aux send, channel fader, group buss, master bus in that chain. I set master out levels with the peak indicators to get a good recording level with my BR800 multi-track recorder. I have the group outs and send going to the other channels of the BR800 (there is another sore point with the BR00, but that's another story). All other preceding controls per channel are set to create a good, lively level in the summing amp. The monitor out feeds the Logitech Z623 5.1 system, and both the output stage and the Z623 inputs are compatible. The BR00 monitor out connects to the second line input on the Z623, and they are compatible too. The mixers USB loop connects to the PC and FL Studio is the DAW. The mixer has a foot switch input and so do the midi controllers
We plug in with a variety of instruments (Bass, guitar, mics, keyboards, electronic drum rack, IPhone/Pad backing). I leave the master out with settings for hardware and software recording. I set our listening levels with the monitor out. I hope you built one with a level control in your mixer design and do know what this function is for. As we jam, we record some of our live jamming without any further need from us for post-processing. I do the mastering part live by first setting for good recording and setting assorted effects loops and controlling a lot of these with the foot controls while playing. The result is a mix of backing, live instruments and vocals all in one room and all sounding like a CD recording with no brashness
I understand gain staging to be getting the mix set correctly up to the output faders
I call this live mastering and this type of process can be clearly seen in live Sly and Robbie Jazz type recording as well as dancehalls with guest vocalists and musicians. These get recorded live or even broadcast live. Pod casters can do this without the huge pro desks too. Roland have a DJ mixer that does this live too, and this has both consumer and pro compatible outputs. This thing is a full digital monster with audio and midi interface, control surface, hardware samplers, Roland vocal effects module and sequencer on top of all that. It is very expensive, but there is one in my near future to replace and a lot of the traditional gear. The Yamaha footprint is getting a bit old too, and I have my eye on a 6i6 digital mixer that is also full control surface and motorised faders. The gear I have already does a lot of this stuff, but I am in the middle of a studio and workshop renovation and a good time to plan for the new desk and furniture. My Akai FIRE is arriving today
. The new 6i6 and the three midi controllers on the desk. FL up on big screen, virtual DJ on the big screen for karaoke, FL windows on the little screensAllow me to do a new thread with a log of my studio and workshop build, but without these skimming things and fully discussing specifics. I have most of the new gear already too in their boxes around me. I have a thread running on this forum about an experimental monitor speaker build to possibly replace my Aaron Audio Precision 3. I do have all the test equipment and locations so if these are successful at meeting the objectives then they will be keepers
As I said, all the specifics originally raised were skimmed with self admissions. I have all the time to assist the OP with any queries about my setup but I am done discussing this with the mob
Thanks and regards
Randy
Man, my portable 2.1 in a box fits in under a cubic foot and is easily managed by a 9yr old also lugging a bass and a double bass. With her Akai MPK Mini Play and iPad, she can now take her entire studio with her for less than another kilogram, all on one easily managed foldable trolley
My apologies, but I do not wish to get in the way of your offer. I just would like to take the opportunity to highlight the reasons you are doing that and how my hotly argued against implementation at finding a solution to those issues. Regardless of expertise level, I would think that ears would prick up at someone managing to pull this off, so I cannot fathom the debate
https://www.bonedo.de/artikel/ampeg-ba-115-v2-test/2/
Scoll down the page to the audio samples. Grab a headpohne and listen. This is what you will get from the amp that has been offerd to you. For a more than fair price. You can sell it for such little money any day of the week. You need something like that to practice.
Compare that to your HIFI speakers and you will realize the difference the experienced people here want to make you understand.
If you want your daughter to play music, give her the tools to make it a success. Do not make her unhappy, by giving her some ridiculous, self made nonsense others will joke about..
Think about it that way. Do you cut her hair too and sew her jeans? No? Why not?
Scoll down the page to the audio samples. Grab a headpohne and listen. This is what you will get from the amp that has been offerd to you. For a more than fair price. You can sell it for such little money any day of the week. You need something like that to practice.
Compare that to your HIFI speakers and you will realize the difference the experienced people here want to make you understand.
If you want your daughter to play music, give her the tools to make it a success. Do not make her unhappy, by giving her some ridiculous, self made nonsense others will joke about..
Think about it that way. Do you cut her hair too and sew her jeans? No? Why not?
Best is headphones, but even your stereo might give you an impression how dynamic a live played bass really sounds. This has very little to do with how loud you play. These samples are recorded with a microphone in front of the amp cabinet. They made without compression and really good to hear differences between instruments or even such amplifier cabinets.
I begin to understand why you think a HIFI stereo could give you an ""alike" sound. There are psycho acustic things going on, your brain reconstructs how it should sound from higher order frequency, even when the fundamentals are missing or much to low in sound pressure.
If you want to learn an instrument, you have to hear the real sound. As I said at the begining, a 15" woofer with a tweeter are what you need. A 4x10" will do, too. Do not confuse these speakers with "sub woofers", they are constructed quite different. A typical sub woofer driver has a heavy cone, a huge magnet and soft suspension. It will not be able to reproduce more than 200 Hz. A driver made for instrument bass reproduction has a very light cone, a medium sized magnet and a hard suspension. It will reach much higher frequency, like 3000 Hz and have a tweeter to do the high components. Usually the response has a dip or hole in the middle. This gives the typical bass sound.
A HIFI speaker is made to have a neutral, linear response. The bass cabinet is an integral part of the instrument. It shapes the sound of the instrument. This is why e-bass is often picked up by a microphone in front of the bass cabinet and then reproduced by the PA for the audience. In a small club the sole cabinet may do. To hear what you play during practice is most important.
I begin to understand why you think a HIFI stereo could give you an ""alike" sound. There are psycho acustic things going on, your brain reconstructs how it should sound from higher order frequency, even when the fundamentals are missing or much to low in sound pressure.
If you want to learn an instrument, you have to hear the real sound. As I said at the begining, a 15" woofer with a tweeter are what you need. A 4x10" will do, too. Do not confuse these speakers with "sub woofers", they are constructed quite different. A typical sub woofer driver has a heavy cone, a huge magnet and soft suspension. It will not be able to reproduce more than 200 Hz. A driver made for instrument bass reproduction has a very light cone, a medium sized magnet and a hard suspension. It will reach much higher frequency, like 3000 Hz and have a tweeter to do the high components. Usually the response has a dip or hole in the middle. This gives the typical bass sound.
A HIFI speaker is made to have a neutral, linear response. The bass cabinet is an integral part of the instrument. It shapes the sound of the instrument. This is why e-bass is often picked up by a microphone in front of the bass cabinet and then reproduced by the PA for the audience. In a small club the sole cabinet may do. To hear what you play during practice is most important.
With what Turbowatch2 said as a background let's check the frequency response of one of the most revered bass guitar driver ( this is the one used in Ampeg's cab):
https://www.usspeaker.com/eminence-legend bp102-4-10inch-bass-guitar-speaker-1.htm
Take a look at freq response graph. Do you spot the 'hole' in response around 500hz? Then how it is accentuated around 1khz?
This is the kind of cabinet 'voicing'/'tuning' i talked about previously.
15", 12",10" (even 18" drivers!) are traditionaly used for bass duty. All have a different sound: in the 70's/80's the rage was on 15" for rock, funk,... during 90's 10" were more and more used as they are 'clearer' sounding than 15". 12" have never been really favoured by bass players but things are changing from what i've seen.
For reggae dub... i've often used some Mesa/Boogie 18". Even miced the cabinet on the rear of cabinet ( opposite to the driver): natural filtered sound with a slightly crunching sound finger played... sound sweet and huge!
Imho go sealed for cabinet. Q of cabinet can be used to 'tune'/'voice' sound too: with 1,2/1,4 Qtc with an fc in 70/80hz range you can accentuate the 80hz range. Won't work with a 5 string bass as it'll muddy the B string but for a 4 string i can work great.
There is many options once you use dedicated gear and 'traditional' approach.
Tha Ampeg Ba115 bring sweet memories. It's a great polyvalent practice amp with the Ampeg flavor ( not a SVT though). Frankly at price JJ offer it it's a steal. It is a bit bulky, but all 15" combo will be.
Crocobar, you talked about recording. Maybe if you described what you plan to do we could help you to define how to process.
I mean Randy, Check and I described briefly ( or not) our workflow. Yours could be different or not.
I mean if you have a DAW almost everything is possible ( to the point of just plug your instrument into a soundcard with instrument input and use plug ins to 'modelise' everything you need).
I get your quest for a one and only loudspeaker for everything but if you want your stringed instrument to sound as we are used to hear them the cabinet/ amp are part of the sound and should be recorded trough them.
https://www.usspeaker.com/eminence-legend bp102-4-10inch-bass-guitar-speaker-1.htm
Take a look at freq response graph. Do you spot the 'hole' in response around 500hz? Then how it is accentuated around 1khz?
This is the kind of cabinet 'voicing'/'tuning' i talked about previously.
15", 12",10" (even 18" drivers!) are traditionaly used for bass duty. All have a different sound: in the 70's/80's the rage was on 15" for rock, funk,... during 90's 10" were more and more used as they are 'clearer' sounding than 15". 12" have never been really favoured by bass players but things are changing from what i've seen.
For reggae dub... i've often used some Mesa/Boogie 18". Even miced the cabinet on the rear of cabinet ( opposite to the driver): natural filtered sound with a slightly crunching sound finger played... sound sweet and huge!
Imho go sealed for cabinet. Q of cabinet can be used to 'tune'/'voice' sound too: with 1,2/1,4 Qtc with an fc in 70/80hz range you can accentuate the 80hz range. Won't work with a 5 string bass as it'll muddy the B string but for a 4 string i can work great.
There is many options once you use dedicated gear and 'traditional' approach.
Tha Ampeg Ba115 bring sweet memories. It's a great polyvalent practice amp with the Ampeg flavor ( not a SVT though). Frankly at price JJ offer it it's a steal. It is a bit bulky, but all 15" combo will be.
Crocobar, you talked about recording. Maybe if you described what you plan to do we could help you to define how to process.
I mean Randy, Check and I described briefly ( or not) our workflow. Yours could be different or not.
I mean if you have a DAW almost everything is possible ( to the point of just plug your instrument into a soundcard with instrument input and use plug ins to 'modelise' everything you need).
I get your quest for a one and only loudspeaker for everything but if you want your stringed instrument to sound as we are used to hear them the cabinet/ amp are part of the sound and should be recorded trough them.
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I would like to point to a comment you made previously about playing in stadium: the configuration i described is typical for rocks band.
It's not a question of where you play, it is related to the fact drums produce high spl level. Even more when played by someone talented/gifted.
It is true for all acoustic instruments, i've often been amazed by how louder some acoustic instruments can sound when you have the right technique. I once recorded a 1er trumpetist in a big french symphonic ensemble: boy how LOUD a trumpet can be when played by virtuoso!
It's not a question of where you play, it is related to the fact drums produce high spl level. Even more when played by someone talented/gifted.
It is true for all acoustic instruments, i've often been amazed by how louder some acoustic instruments can sound when you have the right technique. I once recorded a 1er trumpetist in a big french symphonic ensemble: boy how LOUD a trumpet can be when played by virtuoso!
Folks, let me step away for a moment from specific questions and describe my general preferences. I do not mean this as an argument or denial of anything substantial that was said - I am thankful for all explanations! This is just what I think I like.
Guitar and accompanying equipment - is a relatively new hobby for me. In a way, it is two hobbies in one, perhaps three: playing, tinkering with equipment, and recording. If my daughter sticks with the bass, which I encourage but do not force, I will be happy, it will be an extra benefit. She has just begun as well.
I do not have big aspirations in any of them. I practice at home, don't see myself playing publicly even when - and it will take time - I get good enough for that to make any sense. I do want to make recordings, perhaps videos, for myself and maybe a small group of friends for fun.
So, there is a practical aspect for the equipment: I do not want it to take a lot of room, and I don't need it to be club-level loud. Some would say that this is inevitable if I want "proper sound", I believe this sentiment was expressed even in the two previous posts. I think this is a legitimate concern assuming one wants a very particular sound. I am not sure I do though.
I understand that opinionated amps and speakers are considered a part of the instrument, the "correct" way to produce sound. This is indeed directly opposite to the hifi amps and speakers, which are supposed to be transparent. I understand it and I do not like it. I prefer a different way to produce the desired tone: with SS electronics, and with digital simulation if it is really necessary (I do prefer the idea of analog sound shaping rather than digital but not with wooden contraptions - that belongs in the past).
I realize that I am probably in the minority - but I don't think I am all that unusual. Even in this thread, there was a comment from an experienced guitar player who said that he switched from amps and cabs to pedals.
Now to the speakers: as I understood so far, there may be difference between guitar and hifi speakers in the dynamic range but I do not believe that it is important enough for me. I still think that if processed guitar can sound good on hifi, hifi has enough of the range for my needs. Even the suggestion above to listen to the bass amp samples - on the stereo! - suggests that the stereo is sufficient to hear it. It may be psychoacoustics or "real" - who cares? I don't.
There are also numerous claims that the guitar speakers/drivers have a particular frequency response: I believe it but again, I prefer to shape the spectrum with an equalizer, not with the speaker. If I have a sound system that covers all frequencies, I can adjust it more or less to what is needed. It might not be the exact sound that a particular amp+cab produces but I do not care about it, as long as it sounds good and interesting.
On top of that, I understand that there is very good amp and cab digital simulation available pretty cheaply these days (Gnobuddy recommended the Flamma 06 pedal in multiple other threads).
I do not claim that any of the above is "the right way" - I just like this approach better. It is more pleasant for me to deal with smart electronics than with big wooden boxes. I do not chase any particular vintage sound - I am new to guitars, and I am happy to discover the sound that I like. The vintage sound, at least in part, is what it is because it just happened to be that way given the technology back in the day, not because it was "done right".
That said, I am probably wrong about some of it. I am happy to hear corrections and different opinions.
Guitar and accompanying equipment - is a relatively new hobby for me. In a way, it is two hobbies in one, perhaps three: playing, tinkering with equipment, and recording. If my daughter sticks with the bass, which I encourage but do not force, I will be happy, it will be an extra benefit. She has just begun as well.
I do not have big aspirations in any of them. I practice at home, don't see myself playing publicly even when - and it will take time - I get good enough for that to make any sense. I do want to make recordings, perhaps videos, for myself and maybe a small group of friends for fun.
So, there is a practical aspect for the equipment: I do not want it to take a lot of room, and I don't need it to be club-level loud. Some would say that this is inevitable if I want "proper sound", I believe this sentiment was expressed even in the two previous posts. I think this is a legitimate concern assuming one wants a very particular sound. I am not sure I do though.
I understand that opinionated amps and speakers are considered a part of the instrument, the "correct" way to produce sound. This is indeed directly opposite to the hifi amps and speakers, which are supposed to be transparent. I understand it and I do not like it. I prefer a different way to produce the desired tone: with SS electronics, and with digital simulation if it is really necessary (I do prefer the idea of analog sound shaping rather than digital but not with wooden contraptions - that belongs in the past).
I realize that I am probably in the minority - but I don't think I am all that unusual. Even in this thread, there was a comment from an experienced guitar player who said that he switched from amps and cabs to pedals.
Now to the speakers: as I understood so far, there may be difference between guitar and hifi speakers in the dynamic range but I do not believe that it is important enough for me. I still think that if processed guitar can sound good on hifi, hifi has enough of the range for my needs. Even the suggestion above to listen to the bass amp samples - on the stereo! - suggests that the stereo is sufficient to hear it. It may be psychoacoustics or "real" - who cares? I don't.
There are also numerous claims that the guitar speakers/drivers have a particular frequency response: I believe it but again, I prefer to shape the spectrum with an equalizer, not with the speaker. If I have a sound system that covers all frequencies, I can adjust it more or less to what is needed. It might not be the exact sound that a particular amp+cab produces but I do not care about it, as long as it sounds good and interesting.
On top of that, I understand that there is very good amp and cab digital simulation available pretty cheaply these days (Gnobuddy recommended the Flamma 06 pedal in multiple other threads).
I do not claim that any of the above is "the right way" - I just like this approach better. It is more pleasant for me to deal with smart electronics than with big wooden boxes. I do not chase any particular vintage sound - I am new to guitars, and I am happy to discover the sound that I like. The vintage sound, at least in part, is what it is because it just happened to be that way given the technology back in the day, not because it was "done right".
That said, I am probably wrong about some of it. I am happy to hear corrections and different opinions.
DIYS building a well sounding amplified bass box is much more time and money consuming than 150$. You will not even get the speaker and wood for that price.
Such commercial builds like the AMPEG are made from relative cheap looking components.. This may distract from the fact that are exactly made up for the task. That is why they have qualified people working in the development department. I see no problem in building a HIFI speaker of highest quality or even a PA, but guitar and bass speaker are a different animal. There is too much about sound tuning going on, very different from the linear HIFI approach.
Such commercial builds like the AMPEG are made from relative cheap looking components.. This may distract from the fact that are exactly made up for the task. That is why they have qualified people working in the development department. I see no problem in building a HIFI speaker of highest quality or even a PA, but guitar and bass speaker are a different animal. There is too much about sound tuning going on, very different from the linear HIFI approach.
Just a last remark.
I do not think that much about your guitar ambitions, but your daughters. My daughter started with keyboards at age 8, then percussion and now, 22 years old, play's the guitar. If you do not give them the right tools, that produce the "real" impression of the instrument, they will get frustrated and quit.
So build for yourself whatever unprofessional HIFI speaker for e-guitar you like, but don't let her suffer from your stubbornness.
You don't want the right tool for the task, I think we have understood by now.
I do not think that much about your guitar ambitions, but your daughters. My daughter started with keyboards at age 8, then percussion and now, 22 years old, play's the guitar. If you do not give them the right tools, that produce the "real" impression of the instrument, they will get frustrated and quit.
So build for yourself whatever unprofessional HIFI speaker for e-guitar you like, but don't let her suffer from your stubbornness.
You don't want the right tool for the task, I think we have understood by now.
Now we are going somewhere... I hope so!
So we can now see a possible workflow. It will be easier to determine what you need the pro and cons and from there the possible option.
Thank you.
Don't make assumption please. You don't need to play loud to record a good 'sound'.
It is a myth which comes from the facts some famous guitar tube amps give a certain sound when pushed. The drivers behavior play a role too as it induce natural compression.
If you want that sound it's the way to do it. But it's a kind of sound amongst a lot of others...
Truth to be told: as sound engineer i'm bored of guitarist using 100w heads as it always end up being too loud for studio works. We had some 'low' power ( 25 and 50 w) amplifiers as backline in the studio i worked in with 4x12" loaded cab. Each 12" was different reference/brand ( and different cab loading= open/closed back or modular between the two) to have multiple natural eq to boot on when shaping sound. In other word we were not looking for loud, but for tone.
I dropped cabinet/amp at home for same reason as you: too much space taken.
There is no correct way. There is your way.
Being it traditional or completly new doesn't matter if it fullfill your needs/requirements.
Be rassured you ARE NOT in MINORITY: for the last ten years i met/recorded a number of bands with youngster in it. 90% of this guitarist/bassist doesn't own an amplifier.
They shape sound either from electronic processors them being either analog or digital or from plug ins with amp modellers and cabinet simulators in daw.
And they monitor through studio monitors at best, headphone most often.
I made that choice too for ergonomic reason mainly.
That said when this guy/girl meet me this is for a reason, recording. In that context, i impose an amp and cab, spend time with them 'reshaping' their tone.
I've never had any musician upset to had to do it that way as they were all pleased by the outcome.
Ok. Fair enough.
This is where there is something you are missing: micing a cab is the most powerful eq/treatment you can make.
By moving a mic in front of a loudspeaker there is complex interaction which 'shape' sound in sometimes way more efficient way than an eq.
This is the reason the cabinet modeler have evoluted from analog eq/filter ( sansamp range) to some dsp based units ( Kemper amps). All the latest offer a selection of mics to choose from, placement of them, list of drivers,etc,etc...
Even if fully digital the workflow is the same as with the real thing.
That said i get the appeal an analog unit like sansamp have: few knobs and a lot of option. Can sound very nice.
Your choice. But don't dismiss things without understanding what they really are.
Ok. You don't need anything more than a soundcard, computer and daw if dsp does not scares you. Basicly this is what i use.
But i made the choice to have the computer/screen/ keyboard/soundcard discarded for a simple box:
https://www.musicstore.com/fr_FR/EU...xL9tyM6fQetpPskrftLbNWBSZ0mhSBJxoC4nMQAvD_BwE
Why? Because of ergonomy: don't underestimate how lazy we can be... turning on computer, monitoring, waiting for plug to load in daw... ok, maybe tommorow...
A box or amp: i've got a melody in my head... i grab my axe, plug it push a button... let's rock.
Your choice here too.
Don't overlook ergonomy... we are human.
So we can now see a possible workflow. It will be easier to determine what you need the pro and cons and from there the possible option.
Thank you.
Don't make assumption please. You don't need to play loud to record a good 'sound'.
It is a myth which comes from the facts some famous guitar tube amps give a certain sound when pushed. The drivers behavior play a role too as it induce natural compression.
If you want that sound it's the way to do it. But it's a kind of sound amongst a lot of others...
Truth to be told: as sound engineer i'm bored of guitarist using 100w heads as it always end up being too loud for studio works. We had some 'low' power ( 25 and 50 w) amplifiers as backline in the studio i worked in with 4x12" loaded cab. Each 12" was different reference/brand ( and different cab loading= open/closed back or modular between the two) to have multiple natural eq to boot on when shaping sound. In other word we were not looking for loud, but for tone.
I dropped cabinet/amp at home for same reason as you: too much space taken.
There is no correct way. There is your way.
Being it traditional or completly new doesn't matter if it fullfill your needs/requirements.
Be rassured you ARE NOT in MINORITY: for the last ten years i met/recorded a number of bands with youngster in it. 90% of this guitarist/bassist doesn't own an amplifier.
They shape sound either from electronic processors them being either analog or digital or from plug ins with amp modellers and cabinet simulators in daw.
And they monitor through studio monitors at best, headphone most often.
I made that choice too for ergonomic reason mainly.
That said when this guy/girl meet me this is for a reason, recording. In that context, i impose an amp and cab, spend time with them 'reshaping' their tone.
I've never had any musician upset to had to do it that way as they were all pleased by the outcome.
Ok. Fair enough.
This is where there is something you are missing: micing a cab is the most powerful eq/treatment you can make.
By moving a mic in front of a loudspeaker there is complex interaction which 'shape' sound in sometimes way more efficient way than an eq.
This is the reason the cabinet modeler have evoluted from analog eq/filter ( sansamp range) to some dsp based units ( Kemper amps). All the latest offer a selection of mics to choose from, placement of them, list of drivers,etc,etc...
Even if fully digital the workflow is the same as with the real thing.
That said i get the appeal an analog unit like sansamp have: few knobs and a lot of option. Can sound very nice.
Your choice. But don't dismiss things without understanding what they really are.
Ok. You don't need anything more than a soundcard, computer and daw if dsp does not scares you. Basicly this is what i use.
But i made the choice to have the computer/screen/ keyboard/soundcard discarded for a simple box:
https://www.musicstore.com/fr_FR/EU...xL9tyM6fQetpPskrftLbNWBSZ0mhSBJxoC4nMQAvD_BwE
Why? Because of ergonomy: don't underestimate how lazy we can be... turning on computer, monitoring, waiting for plug to load in daw... ok, maybe tommorow...
A box or amp: i've got a melody in my head... i grab my axe, plug it push a button... let's rock.
Your choice here too.
Don't overlook ergonomy... we are human.
It is indeed epic and shall be talked about for years to come. I have learned more in the last day on this thread than I have in the last 35 years! The journey is almost spiritual...
Today I also find myself devouring relevant book's... some are a bit dry but as with all things worthwhile perseverance and maybe a glass of water will help.
It reminds me of when I was very young, an old man in a cape came up to me once and whispered, "record the source luke! ... you may know that water is wet but is it still wet if you jump from a bridge into it? the nay sayers, evil professional types will say yes it is but I offer the question.... how can you know for sure unless you jump?.... I turned and he was gone but I knew from then on that I was pitch perfect and should follow the path of true pioneers in the audio world... This thread has been an epiphany... Thank you for the opportunity!
Damn, all those wasted years with "pro" equipment that wasn't needed... 😭😭😭
LOL... I use a switchable 1 or 15W all valve head, usually the 1 watt. Actually the 1 watt into a 4 x 12 is even incredibly loud.
Cough, cough damn those books are dry 🤬
Girls just wanna have fun...
Heres is the guitar amp my daughter uses.
When she took it to her guitar teacher, he first loughed about it, then tried it, just for fun.
He ended up plugging it into his PA system and finally spent nearly 2 hours exploring all the things it could do.
https://voxamps.com/de/produkt/mini5-rhythm/
This is her guitar, in a girls color. Orange metalic Yamaha. A very capable entry level instrument.
This is our home and party PA. Even as it is used for watching TV too, she connects the modeling amp to it and rock's the house from time to time. Top is a 12” wedge with a compression driver, from 120 Hz down the 15” bass bin kicks in. Only the right one shown. Stereo of course.
The little DSP amp (Behringer iNuke 3000) gives it some headroom.
Heres is the guitar amp my daughter uses.
When she took it to her guitar teacher, he first loughed about it, then tried it, just for fun.
He ended up plugging it into his PA system and finally spent nearly 2 hours exploring all the things it could do.
https://voxamps.com/de/produkt/mini5-rhythm/
This is her guitar, in a girls color. Orange metalic Yamaha. A very capable entry level instrument.
This is our home and party PA. Even as it is used for watching TV too, she connects the modeling amp to it and rock's the house from time to time. Top is a 12” wedge with a compression driver, from 120 Hz down the 15” bass bin kicks in. Only the right one shown. Stereo of course.
The little DSP amp (Behringer iNuke 3000) gives it some headroom.
Attachments
Check12,
Please apologize but i find it unfair.
Randy obviously evolve in sound system culture, diy and punk attitude is part of it.
As i have my roots in it as well as other subcultures i know there is the same things going on different levels in each of them.
Ok there is obvious clues he is not in touch with professional from industry ( Randy, mastering is a very specialised task consisting of redbook related fun things like indexing tracks, setting silence between them and incorporating codes numbers to a ddp... what you are refering too is known as 'premastering' in pro circle. The aesthetic side of thing).
That doesn't mean he is not professional in it's field.
Randy, don't think people dismiss you it's not the case. Keep in mind your way of doing thing can induce issue for a beginer.
Please apologize but i find it unfair.
Randy obviously evolve in sound system culture, diy and punk attitude is part of it.
As i have my roots in it as well as other subcultures i know there is the same things going on different levels in each of them.
Ok there is obvious clues he is not in touch with professional from industry ( Randy, mastering is a very specialised task consisting of redbook related fun things like indexing tracks, setting silence between them and incorporating codes numbers to a ddp... what you are refering too is known as 'premastering' in pro circle. The aesthetic side of thing).
That doesn't mean he is not professional in it's field.
Randy, don't think people dismiss you it's not the case. Keep in mind your way of doing thing can induce issue for a beginer.
Y
You are obviously not into metal or other 'extreme' genre...
I settled on a Pair of Mesa as my main amps in studio: 1x25w ( a blues one can't remember the ref and a rectifier 50w 'micro' head).
Those were my backline/reference.
I've got guy ( not youngster) who bring some VHT/Fryette amps lately. Fryette is all transistor... sounded as ( way too) loud as the tube based Pitbull...
You are obviously not into metal or other 'extreme' genre...
I settled on a Pair of Mesa as my main amps in studio: 1x25w ( a blues one can't remember the ref and a rectifier 50w 'micro' head).
Those were my backline/reference.
I've got guy ( not youngster) who bring some VHT/Fryette amps lately. Fryette is all transistor... sounded as ( way too) loud as the tube based Pitbull...
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It is a Laney IRT studio, so it is designed as a metal amp but I use it now for all genres of music. It's great for everything, being older I'm more Van Halen than modern metal although I do have a soft spot for Mudvayne...😈You are obviously not into metal or other 'extreme' genre...
I've still got a Mesa V twin pedal somewhere that gets used the odd time, I've had loads of amps over the years but my favourite was a 1980's Marshall Silver Jubilee full midi stack 25 or 50 Watts, much better than 100w as you could switch to 25 get complete pre and power amp break up without the MAD volume of the 100w... Wish I'd never sold it, I moved on to a JMP1 pre and power amp because I was gigging lot's and it was easier to transport but I very quickly and have always missed the Jubilee.. you still see the silver cabinets getting used live, they defo standout... 😎
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