Seriously?
From the Op's first reply, a mixing console into a small form factor, full spectrum monitor has been the topic. He even mentioned recommendations from Gnobuddy and I for such a console
I haven't used little pedals, but I have used zooms bass multi effects. The outs are just like a console outs. I don't know what you mean, as I am sure most pedals will have control over the output
Smalltime producers and engineers do not lack in competency. Not many are having a hard time releasing songs. Competency is setting the levels to suit the equipment
From the Op's first reply, a mixing console into a small form factor, full spectrum monitor has been the topic. He even mentioned recommendations from Gnobuddy and I for such a console
I haven't used little pedals, but I have used zooms bass multi effects. The outs are just like a console outs. I don't know what you mean, as I am sure most pedals will have control over the output
Smalltime producers and engineers do not lack in competency. Not many are having a hard time releasing songs. Competency is setting the levels to suit the equipment
Sonce, thank you for the concerns. Perhaps I was not very clear in the original post - but it looks like we clarified things. I do mean that the signal from the guitar will be converted appropriately and attenuated or amplified as needed before it hits the hifi input.
I actually do mean to use a simple mixing console eventually, as Randy suggested early in the thread, and as Gnobuddy suggested way earlier in another thread that I linked in the second or third post.
But I think that I can do it even without a console: my pedal has an XLR out. It can be converted with a simple cable to an unbalanced mono line in. In fact, I tried it tonight: the cheap fender amp that I have has a line in to connect the phone for adding back tracks, and I tried plugging the guitar in it, and it sounds fine.
I actually do mean to use a simple mixing console eventually, as Randy suggested early in the thread, and as Gnobuddy suggested way earlier in another thread that I linked in the second or third post.
But I think that I can do it even without a console: my pedal has an XLR out. It can be converted with a simple cable to an unbalanced mono line in. In fact, I tried it tonight: the cheap fender amp that I have has a line in to connect the phone for adding back tracks, and I tried plugging the guitar in it, and it sounds fine.
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I totally agree with your thinking, Randy. And the more I think about your Logitech design, the more I like it. Also, I have a buddy who actually works at Logitech, I might be able to use his friends and family discount.
Put another $70 for an (empty) loudspeaker box, and you will cough the same amount of money as the cost of brand new REAL bass combo Fender Rumble 40 V3.
Erm... I'm not sure that audiophile community would agree with the notion that HIFI loudspeakers are intrinsically inferior to live ones: if bass speakers were better for bass, some people would use them for their home stereo systems. Some of those people pay tens of thousands for their systems and go to amazing lengths to customize yet I've never heard of anyone using a live bass speaker in a home HIFI setup.
That quote is about comparison: professional studio monitor vs ordinary hi-fi loudspeakers.
Hi-fi speakers are very different from "live" (professional, instrument, PA) speakers. Too long explanation is needed, just accept this please. More and more audiophiles are using professional drivers in home setups, I designed and sold to many audiophiles custom-build loudspeakers with professional drivers.
This can be seen also from the other side: if hi-fi speakers are good enough for bass-guitar duties, why there are not used in bass-combos?
Hi-fi speakers are very different from "live" (professional, instrument, PA) speakers. Too long explanation is needed, just accept this please. More and more audiophiles are using professional drivers in home setups, I designed and sold to many audiophiles custom-build loudspeakers with professional drivers.
This can be seen also from the other side: if hi-fi speakers are good enough for bass-guitar duties, why there are not used in bass-combos?
Because your type of mindset dominates and will not allow this. The market somehow has been fooled into believing this snake oil. Plus, the right hi-fi driver will demand a lot more power to start the note but will have higher thermal and will out output the traditional driver of equal diameter. This is expensive to sell to noobs and no profit. Doesn't stop us from making our own
And this thing about PA drivers can output more because they are more efficient is only relevant when venues are huge and such. We are talking about a lounge room or garage here. Crazy thing is that despite all these blanket statements about PA efficiency, there are drivers made to go louder, and they are definitely not aimed at the PA market but often feature in hi fidelity systems
And this thing about PA drivers can output more because they are more efficient is only relevant when venues are huge and such. We are talking about a lounge room or garage here. Crazy thing is that despite all these blanket statements about PA efficiency, there are drivers made to go louder, and they are definitely not aimed at the PA market but often feature in hi fidelity systems
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And seriously? The driver I am recommending is generally not regarded as hi-fi and from another hard hitter scene. Hard gaming and home cinema with THX rating and crazy excursion. Its low pass point is high enough to produce all notes from a bass guitar. Any bad stringing can be heard from the satellites. Nothing is missing. Lots more scope added, I am quite shocked that this so difficult for you to contemplate
I originally formerly trained as a recording engineer, have also worked as a pro guitar and bass player and latterly guitar tech for 35+ years, I just skimmed the thread and got totally lost in all the tangents, if you ask simple specific questions I'll be happy to offer you my informed opinion ...
In a nutshell: OP wants to use the lowest grade "subwoofer" from no-name "4.1 (!?) surround set", plus the lowest grade "hi-fi" 3-way loudspeaker (CostCo), slapped to a a lowest grade class D audio amp (TPA 3116), via pedal box (thank God!) - for bass-guitar playing/practicing!!!
Instead of that non-functional, hair-rising mess, I recommended new or second-hand Fender Rumble 40 V3. But no avail...
Instead of that non-functional, hair-rising mess, I recommended new or second-hand Fender Rumble 40 V3. But no avail...
Hmmm, that does seem a bit convoluted ... oh well if the OP wants to ask specific questions I will answer them with practical facts & experience from playing, recording and technical aspects ...
Thank you, check12, perhaps you can explain why my thinking is obviously wrong (if it is) as Sonce suggests.
Specifically, if I hook up the subwoofer and the speaker to a tpa3116 board, I get very very good sound, and there is room to crank it up louder than I can tolerate in an average 2000 square feet house.
So my thinking is, this ought to be good enough for live bass or guitar practicing. The signal from guitar will need to be properly converted to match the input but today there is a lot of cheap good electronics, so converting the signal should not be a daunting task.
(In fact, a quick read of this forum a week ago explained to me that converting guitar to balanced XLR is standard, and most TPA chips have differential input, which is the same as XLR balanced. Or I can convert XLR to unbalanced mono line with a simple cable.)
So, what is missing in this design? If these speakers have a frequency hole (which I don't notice immediately), I can add another driver or take another speaker - for example, a pair of old used full spectrum hi fi floor standing speakers can be had well under $100, and one of them would cover all frequencies and will be plenty loud.
So, what is so obviously and hopelessly wrong with this approach that people don't even want to discuss it seriously?
P.S. Meanwhile, Randy had made a system following a similar spirit. He says it works great. I tend to agree with him that the objections come from tradition and mindset.
Specifically, if I hook up the subwoofer and the speaker to a tpa3116 board, I get very very good sound, and there is room to crank it up louder than I can tolerate in an average 2000 square feet house.
So my thinking is, this ought to be good enough for live bass or guitar practicing. The signal from guitar will need to be properly converted to match the input but today there is a lot of cheap good electronics, so converting the signal should not be a daunting task.
(In fact, a quick read of this forum a week ago explained to me that converting guitar to balanced XLR is standard, and most TPA chips have differential input, which is the same as XLR balanced. Or I can convert XLR to unbalanced mono line with a simple cable.)
So, what is missing in this design? If these speakers have a frequency hole (which I don't notice immediately), I can add another driver or take another speaker - for example, a pair of old used full spectrum hi fi floor standing speakers can be had well under $100, and one of them would cover all frequencies and will be plenty loud.
So, what is so obviously and hopelessly wrong with this approach that people don't even want to discuss it seriously?
P.S. Meanwhile, Randy had made a system following a similar spirit. He says it works great. I tend to agree with him that the objections come from tradition and mindset.
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With just a couple pieces, you should be able to go right in to your home HiFi Aux inputs with both your guitar and the bass - and have it sound like a produced, studio mix. You're not giving a concert, you're having a good time at home with your daughter playing music.
One is the Flamma pedal. Should do everything, you'll ever need sound wise for your electric guitar.
Another is a Mixer, specifically a Behringer Qx1002. You'll note this mixer has compression on two input channels, that and that alone will protect anyone's home HiFi (and ears) from destruction reproducing live instruments. You get one channel, daughter gets the other.
Dont buy another mixer without the compression feature expecting the same or even close to results!
You didnt say if anyone's going to sing, but that can use compression too. Only two channels with the feature on the Behringer, unless you get a bigger model that has 4. The Behringer mixer also offers a nice reverb/echo/delay, that makes it sound like you're playing "somewhere" other than your living room.
I've gotta say Behringer really knew what they were doing when they added the compression feature to those mixers. I had figured that out 30 years ago, as a step between attempting to rock-band practice live - and practicing with all instruments including drums miked, mixed and headphone monitored for each member of the band. Drums went in another room, guitars, bass, vocals all console mixed then DBX compressed and it became,...tolerable to practice playing music together.
Everyone through their own amps in the same room with a PA for vocals? Forget it! Unquestioningly intolerable. I'd last about 15 minutes... So would you home HiFi system, without - er- compression.
One is the Flamma pedal. Should do everything, you'll ever need sound wise for your electric guitar.
Another is a Mixer, specifically a Behringer Qx1002. You'll note this mixer has compression on two input channels, that and that alone will protect anyone's home HiFi (and ears) from destruction reproducing live instruments. You get one channel, daughter gets the other.
Dont buy another mixer without the compression feature expecting the same or even close to results!
You didnt say if anyone's going to sing, but that can use compression too. Only two channels with the feature on the Behringer, unless you get a bigger model that has 4. The Behringer mixer also offers a nice reverb/echo/delay, that makes it sound like you're playing "somewhere" other than your living room.
I've gotta say Behringer really knew what they were doing when they added the compression feature to those mixers. I had figured that out 30 years ago, as a step between attempting to rock-band practice live - and practicing with all instruments including drums miked, mixed and headphone monitored for each member of the band. Drums went in another room, guitars, bass, vocals all console mixed then DBX compressed and it became,...tolerable to practice playing music together.
Everyone through their own amps in the same room with a PA for vocals? Forget it! Unquestioningly intolerable. I'd last about 15 minutes... So would you home HiFi system, without - er- compression.
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I'm not taking part in that.
So you have already put this together and tested it?
That's totally subjective ... only you can decide that for yourself.
There's nothing wrong with TPA chips but it's not as simple as just plugging into a DI box and going straight to the TPA ...
Well the reason is that it looks so convoluted compared to just buying a cheap purpose built bass amp ... let me explain ... (I could write a novel on this but I don't have time so I'll give you some examples that are hopefully relevant to clear up some of the assumptions that I read earlier in the post) ...
Playing bass guitar through your hifi speaker setup will not sound like bass guitar played back from a commercial recording ... and it couldn't possibly because all you are sending to it is a single raw signal straight from the guitars pickups.
Commercial bass guitar recording can be done many different ways but I'll give you a quick scenario of one I've just done for a funk recording:
Bass was recorded on 3 tracks simultaneously, 1x straight DI signal from guitar pickups, 1x split speaker cabinet emulated (this was done to save time, sometimes I will mic the cabinet), 1x split signal through a full valve pre-amp with the signal saturated (distorted).
I used some compression on the way in and during mixing the different bass tracks were treated with several other levels of compression at different points in the song (this gives the impression of much further bass extension amongst many other positive effects), the saturated track was never obvious in the mix but was brought up during busier sections to add energy & presence with high frequency harmonics.
The final bass track was a composite of the 3x tracks mixed to sound like a single kick *** track ... I hope that makes it clearer why playing bass through a purpose built bass amp or in fact any speaker system will never sound as "good" (produced) as bass from a commercial song being played back.
Instrument amp speakers, studio monitor speakers, live sound speakers and hifi speakers are all designed for different purposes and cannot be directly compared ... it's like asking why a tractor isn't as comfortable as a car, you could assume & hope it would be but after a long journey the differences would be a lot more obvious.
Purpose built bass amps are designed to sound good & be heard when played along with other instruments and to be robust to survive being transported, they are not designed to play produced music back on.
Sorry I'm having to cut this short but I've not got much time ... in a nutshell though IMHO if you are determined to build your daughter something then fair enough I get it ... but don't be under the false assumption that it will sound better than even cheap purpose built equipment and remember once she gets into it, it won't be long before she'll want to be able to take it to friends houses easily ....
I think you should do what you want to do ... I would ... I just wanted to see you make the choices for the "right" (practical) reasons ...
Hi,
My two cents too
Bass player since 90's, former sound engineer too.
I dropped combo and amp since i don't play in rock bands anymore. Now i've got a pedal board with compressor ( trace elliot dual band) distortions ( rat, hm2, shredmaster- yes i like my bass to sound like chainsaw from time to time ) , some buffer/splitters, Two Notes torpedo and a small mixer ( for same reason explained by Check12). With that setup i can play everywhere (and have same sound each time) as long as there is a capable amplifier and loudspeakers for monitoring ( or at the very least my pair of headphones...).
If i had to play with the latest drummer we had in my former rock ( ok, metal) band i would need a 2x 4x10" cabinet with a big fat amp ( 400w minimum) each time!
Cause he hits hard. And the 6 string players couldn't help themself with 4x12" cabinets and 100w heads. If you want to cut through there is no escape, the cabinet i used were 'voiced' which helped in that too. Of course ear protections are mandatory.
When i play with electronic dub project, we listen through studio monitors and drummer use triggers/pad ( V drums). No issue as we don't listen this loud and drummer is isolated in a part of room where the hits doesn't bother.
I practice with a setup close to this one at home.
So if you play with a drummer forget hifi gear, go find something able to let you be heard. If it's for yourself ( and you know how to setup a compressor) then why not but be aware of limitations you'll encounter.
My two cents too
Bass player since 90's, former sound engineer too.
I dropped combo and amp since i don't play in rock bands anymore. Now i've got a pedal board with compressor ( trace elliot dual band) distortions ( rat, hm2, shredmaster- yes i like my bass to sound like chainsaw from time to time
) , some buffer/splitters, Two Notes torpedo and a small mixer ( for same reason explained by Check12). With that setup i can play everywhere (and have same sound each time) as long as there is a capable amplifier and loudspeakers for monitoring ( or at the very least my pair of headphones...).If i had to play with the latest drummer we had in my former rock ( ok, metal) band i would need a 2x 4x10" cabinet with a big fat amp ( 400w minimum) each time!
Cause he hits hard. And the 6 string players couldn't help themself with 4x12" cabinets and 100w heads. If you want to cut through there is no escape, the cabinet i used were 'voiced' which helped in that too. Of course ear protections are mandatory.
When i play with electronic dub project, we listen through studio monitors and drummer use triggers/pad ( V drums). No issue as we don't listen this loud and drummer is isolated in a part of room where the hits doesn't bother.
I practice with a setup close to this one at home.
So if you play with a drummer forget hifi gear, go find something able to let you be heard. If it's for yourself ( and you know how to setup a compressor) then why not but be aware of limitations you'll encounter.
This is just getting silly now. Every school term, there are a number of workshops where all the kids from the district are brought together for a day or two of training and a concert. There are four bass players here, so they line up with their instruments and rumblys. They all play at the same time in an orchestra of 30 or so instruments and a backing on a pair of large Yamaha actives either side of the stage
The Logitech cuts through all that with distinct clear articulate notes and drowns out the rumblys that run at max. The Z623 driver still has lots of volume to spare. There is something missing with the negative arguments. That actual hands-on experience of what is being done here. They have played plenty of amps and recorded plenty of bands, but have never tinkered like this to explore the possibilities. Keep in mind, even on this DIY forum, most projects are about cloning and hardly ever anything original. It takes an aptitude for a different type of thinking to tinker
Only hands-on experience with either side of the arguments makes for a credible testimonial, experience vs opinion falls short
Now, nobody told my old Aaron Audio Precision 3 speakers that they ought to go sit quietly. Pair of skinny hi-hi speakers that fall in the same price as budget bookshelves in the hi-fi shops back in the days. Somehow ends up getting a reputation as a true monitor speaker and also lands awards. At that time I had a friend who was a prominent DJ and would sometimes invite me to events to get on the mic (I used to be Shaba Ranks cover singer) on the Sly and Robbie dubs
We would hang for practise either in his studio or at my place. Ap3s did a better job to monitor Robbie's bass and my voice as well as Sly's drums then his JBL desk monitors. A pro Jands amplifier and JB speakers would be going into clipping all the time with my voice and driving bass. Was just rubbish. At my place I had the AP3s running of a Rotel power amp and a homemade sub with a JL audio car driver running of a Jaycar kit amplifier. He would bring his DJ desk to plug into the CD input of my Yamaha Dolby Prologic HT processor that fed the rotel and the DIY
That goes to show that cheap and skinny doesn't mean incapable. I hope to see the last of blanket statements. The range of gear out there is incredible and the crazy things is the amazing potential for repurposing and finding even more elegant solutions
I am guessing that I am not the only one able to discuss the merit of specific bits of equipment to set up a small integrated home live system. I think some of you guys are ignoring the range of monitors that Roland has been introducing, pretty much based on all this
Why this silliness over drums, I thought we were discussing VST drums with the midi controller or sequencer or keyboard types and recorded backing?
The negative arguments are still ignoring my recommended Yamaha console with its very competent compressors in the chain
The Logitech cuts through all that with distinct clear articulate notes and drowns out the rumblys that run at max. The Z623 driver still has lots of volume to spare. There is something missing with the negative arguments. That actual hands-on experience of what is being done here. They have played plenty of amps and recorded plenty of bands, but have never tinkered like this to explore the possibilities. Keep in mind, even on this DIY forum, most projects are about cloning and hardly ever anything original. It takes an aptitude for a different type of thinking to tinker
Only hands-on experience with either side of the arguments makes for a credible testimonial, experience vs opinion falls short
Now, nobody told my old Aaron Audio Precision 3 speakers that they ought to go sit quietly. Pair of skinny hi-hi speakers that fall in the same price as budget bookshelves in the hi-fi shops back in the days. Somehow ends up getting a reputation as a true monitor speaker and also lands awards. At that time I had a friend who was a prominent DJ and would sometimes invite me to events to get on the mic (I used to be Shaba Ranks cover singer) on the Sly and Robbie dubs
We would hang for practise either in his studio or at my place. Ap3s did a better job to monitor Robbie's bass and my voice as well as Sly's drums then his JBL desk monitors. A pro Jands amplifier and JB speakers would be going into clipping all the time with my voice and driving bass. Was just rubbish. At my place I had the AP3s running of a Rotel power amp and a homemade sub with a JL audio car driver running of a Jaycar kit amplifier. He would bring his DJ desk to plug into the CD input of my Yamaha Dolby Prologic HT processor that fed the rotel and the DIY
That goes to show that cheap and skinny doesn't mean incapable. I hope to see the last of blanket statements. The range of gear out there is incredible and the crazy things is the amazing potential for repurposing and finding even more elegant solutions
I am guessing that I am not the only one able to discuss the merit of specific bits of equipment to set up a small integrated home live system. I think some of you guys are ignoring the range of monitors that Roland has been introducing, pretty much based on all this
Why this silliness over drums, I thought we were discussing VST drums with the midi controller or sequencer or keyboard types and recorded backing?
The negative arguments are still ignoring my recommended Yamaha console with its very competent compressors in the chain
You just make assumption after assumption, Randy... You need to stop coming across as so needy.
There are no rules in audio recording etc. All sorts of unusual stuff gets used all the time but there are reasons which have been clearly explained to you why purpose designed equipment has been universally adopted by professionals.
You've not discovered anything new, a lot of people enjoy tinkering with hifi equipment but in reality most people move on to purpose designed equipment by the end of their teenage years. Pro's don't have time to play about.
There's no conspiracy here Randy, it's not the evil pro-audio people vs you... there's no mass mind control going on and you are the only one who can see reality.
So you think your hifi makes a better bass amp than purposefully designed equipment... that's fine... you don't need to keep desperately trying to justify your opinion.
Like I said there are no rules but there are obvious reasons why professionals do not regularly choose hifi equipment as instrument amplification
Pros might not have time but home tinkerers do, and we always upset the pros, that's a fact of life
One does not have to be a pro to delve in music, pros can keep their sensibilities. If you are happy with your opinion that only pro gear should be used to make bass, then all the power to you. I need a better depth and output than your lil pro amps can provide without hooking up to a concert PA with DI or refrigerator class ampeg
I have a solution to this, but you are not required to have aptitude to understand or appreciate this. The person that I am making the recommendation seems to have the that aptitude
You seem to be firmly arguing that live bass guitar cannot be easily live mastered to pass the signal to consumer grade playback gear. I disagree with you
One does not have to be a pro to delve in music, pros can keep their sensibilities. If you are happy with your opinion that only pro gear should be used to make bass, then all the power to you. I need a better depth and output than your lil pro amps can provide without hooking up to a concert PA with DI or refrigerator class ampeg
I have a solution to this, but you are not required to have aptitude to understand or appreciate this. The person that I am making the recommendation seems to have the that aptitude
You seem to be firmly arguing that live bass guitar cannot be easily live mastered to pass the signal to consumer grade playback gear. I disagree with you
You haven't upset anybody randy stop making assumptions in fact so far personally I've found you very entertaining.
I haven't argued with you at all... only you think that and try to put that across, I have only said you are welcome to your opinion and explained why people who make a living from music choose what we do.
I hadn't even noticed you mentioning "live mastering"... It's not a term I'm familiar with but you seem intent on steering the conversation towards it so why don't you start by clearly explaining what you mean by it and some examples of your experience of when & why you have used it?
And please no more assumptions!
in fact so far personally I've found you very entertaining. I haven't argued with you at all... only you think that and try to put that across, I have only said you are welcome to your opinion and explained why people who make a living from music choose what we do.
I hadn't even noticed you mentioning "live mastering"... It's not a term I'm familiar with but you seem intent on steering the conversation towards it so why don't you start by clearly explaining what you mean by it and some examples of your experience of when & why you have used it?
And please no more assumptions!
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