Hi All!
My daughter just started taking bass lessons, currently using Squier PJ bass with a simple Squire guitar amp that came as a part of a bundle with my Squire Strat (I am also a beginner).
I have an old subwoofer from a 4.1 system, and an all-purpose speaker (from CostCo - they used to sell these weird wedge-shaped three-way speakers, I bought it some years ago to try as a center channel).
I am thinking to hook up this woofer and this speaker to some simple PA board to make an entry-level Bass amp for her. Perhaps something based on a TPA3116? Is this reasonable at all or I would be better off just buying some cheap bass amp/speaker?
Thank you!
My daughter just started taking bass lessons, currently using Squier PJ bass with a simple Squire guitar amp that came as a part of a bundle with my Squire Strat (I am also a beginner).
I have an old subwoofer from a 4.1 system, and an all-purpose speaker (from CostCo - they used to sell these weird wedge-shaped three-way speakers, I bought it some years ago to try as a center channel).
I am thinking to hook up this woofer and this speaker to some simple PA board to make an entry-level Bass amp for her. Perhaps something based on a TPA3116? Is this reasonable at all or I would be better off just buying some cheap bass amp/speaker?
Thank you!
Welcome to the site. Sounds like de ja vu!'
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/instruments-amp-y4-trio.383281/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/instruments-amp-y4-trio.383281/
Thank you!
Wow - that DOES sound like deja vu, only I am behind you. Thanks for sharing though - hugely helpful, both in specifics and in sanity checking. With a new thing, I never know if I am talking sense or just being crazy, and everyone is silently rolling their eyes (not that I mind).
Anyway, I am at a stage where I am a couple months into playing a guitar, which coincided with my 12-year-old daughter deciding to take bass lessons. (I do have some prior experience - I played chello for a few years long time ago, and I still play a bit of piano.)
So, I have minimal equipment: the guitars and one standard cheap guitar amp (which we trade places using). But I want to be able eventually to plug in together, and also - perhaps with my son, who is playing keyboards, and possibly a mic? One can dream. And to be able to record and edit, right?
At the same time, I do not want to buy a pile of standard equipment: not sure what is going to stick, and what I actually want/need yet. And I also like the idea of reusing stuff, and putting things together. I do know a bit about the circuits - but not in a very practical way: I studied the theory, and I toyed with simple soldering.
Gnobuddy's advice about buying a cheapo mixer makes a lot of sense to me - here in the states I can get a 4-channel one for like $40, or 8-12 channel with more bells and whistles for $100-$150.
The PA/speakers is still a very open question though. I like class-D amps, a few years ago I bought an inexpensive tpa 3116 2.1 board, a PU board, and it plays music very nicely using decent bookshelf speakers + a sub. I am wondering if I can just plug in that cheap mixer into it, and it might be good for a long while. (I get Gnobuddy's point that the tone will be flat - but I plan to use preamps/effects for the tone, at least for now).
Wow - that DOES sound like deja vu, only I am behind you. Thanks for sharing though - hugely helpful, both in specifics and in sanity checking. With a new thing, I never know if I am talking sense or just being crazy, and everyone is silently rolling their eyes (not that I mind).
Anyway, I am at a stage where I am a couple months into playing a guitar, which coincided with my 12-year-old daughter deciding to take bass lessons. (I do have some prior experience - I played chello for a few years long time ago, and I still play a bit of piano.)
So, I have minimal equipment: the guitars and one standard cheap guitar amp (which we trade places using). But I want to be able eventually to plug in together, and also - perhaps with my son, who is playing keyboards, and possibly a mic? One can dream. And to be able to record and edit, right?
At the same time, I do not want to buy a pile of standard equipment: not sure what is going to stick, and what I actually want/need yet. And I also like the idea of reusing stuff, and putting things together. I do know a bit about the circuits - but not in a very practical way: I studied the theory, and I toyed with simple soldering.
Gnobuddy's advice about buying a cheapo mixer makes a lot of sense to me - here in the states I can get a 4-channel one for like $40, or 8-12 channel with more bells and whistles for $100-$150.
The PA/speakers is still a very open question though. I like class-D amps, a few years ago I bought an inexpensive tpa 3116 2.1 board, a PU board, and it plays music very nicely using decent bookshelf speakers + a sub. I am wondering if I can just plug in that cheap mixer into it, and it might be good for a long while. (I get Gnobuddy's point that the tone will be flat - but I plan to use preamps/effects for the tone, at least for now).
Hey man, you are welcome. Also, good to see someone else with the same interest. I completely understand what you are saying about a small ensemble of instruments and mic and rec. Allow me to share my daughter's personal studio specs, please don't take as a hijack. If you find anything useful in the setup, then I have all the time to 'think tank' with you and maybe recommend my setup to you. My daughter is in year 5. I am very proud of her. Yesterday, the deputy principal called me in for a talk. Turns out that the attached high school wants her to come practice with their ensemble as she is in the top two of her school and does both electric bass with band class and double bass with strings class. The teachers for both classes also do the high school classes
Studio for 10yr old to take through to the end of high school and enable family participation
Monitor system. This seems to be your main interest, with easy and comprehensive integration, right?
Hers is based on the Logitech Z623. High output, full range 2.1 system, rugged durability drivers and amps built in containing correct power supply setup. This is a THX certified system, so it's built to actually work to that standard. The pre section contains a built-in line level mixer with 3 sets of stereo input, as well as jfets in that circuitry. It sings and distorts very musically. The bass knob adds a great shape and tone to bass guitars. This system would be a great investment and would serve a purpose for very many years. My original one has lasted since release, and I have added 3 more sets to my spare's collection since then. It's a cheap system and would really serve much better than the TPA3116 type boards due to the Logitech having genuine 140wrms ability and runs a matched bass driver on it. This will save you money over time in my opinion as I regard it as a complete mini PA. I have DJ'ed with it at small functions many times. The TPA board really does not have the power it takes to make a bass guitar sound great in a small system, can't run the required type of driver very well. It can be used very well as an amplifier fitted into an active speaker to supplement or replace the Logitech satellites. You will need two such boards, one for each side. Make a box with two full range 6" drivers and one 8 or 10 inch woofer. Then, combined with the Logitech, you will have a grand mini PA. I have similar for larger parties and run two Logitech subs and turn the Logitech satellites towards me on the desk as the DJ booth type monitor
The best part about working with the Logitech as the basis is that it has very easy access to all the inputs and outputs of the amps inside, as well as all the preamp section. You might be able to use your 4.1, but I would be able to think how they would sound
Preamps
Mic and bass will need preamps to run with any hi-fi type system, including the Logitech or your TPA. Gnobuddy's suggestion of a small mixer is a good one, but choose one that will work very well with the bass. I tested lots and found that the Yamaha Dpre mic preamp on their mixers sounds better than the guitar inputs on other similar mixers. I had the MG12Xu already, but would recommend the AG06 for you as a minimum. Again, a professional unit that will last forever and still be useful if replaced with better or larger in the future
The AG06 will give you inputs to run one bass, one mic, and a stereo keyboard, as well as receive a stereo channel from a PC over USB and send a stereo channel of all the stuff in the mix to a software or hardware recorder. The more channels you buy, the more flexibility for the future. These Yamahas don't have the flat tone and great long-lasting investment
Keyboard
There are so many small beginner types out there and they all pretty much sound like toys. Don't even bother if you want to practice and learn in a good sound environment. I got Jiya a very large Yamaha E463 for a few hundred dollars, and we can't live with it. It's too big, it's an eyesore, it also sounds like a toy. Its getting donated. Two weeks ago, I got her an AKAI Mpk mini Play mk3. This is a tiny little keyboard controller that is built very well and has built in sounds too. This controls all sorts of software instruments that sound so much better than the toy like sounds of most electronic keyboards. Even the built-in sounds are very good. This device also controls all the knobs and things in the software and is very simple to learn and use. The stereo output is excellent to hook up to the mixer, and you now end up with a total of 3 sets of headphone outs to use as personal monitors and even aux outs and sends
Best thing about this keyboard, on top of already brilliant features, two people can play this at the same time. Your son can play the keys, you on the drum pads, your daughter on the bass and some drunk on the mic. All at the same time and all plugged into the AG03 and that plugged in to the Logitech. A full mini band that is totally portable if 200w of solar/battery and an inverter is used. I use our rig for the practice in the park on the council stage. The tiny Logitech is very good in the open air environment too
Bass
The squire is an entry level and ok but is not designed for little fingers. If your daughter is fine playing it, then all good. If she is struggling with fret buzz and reach and stuff, then a regular electric rebuilt as a bass works awesome. Tunes very well and only need to replace tuners, bridge and strings. The old tuner holes can be filled in with wood flour and epoxy putty and redrilled for 4 holes. This sounds better than a squire in the hands with little fingers due to string setup and reach
Mics
For a small budget family studio, the Samson C7 is my pick. Stupid strong, very free of catching unwanted noise and feedback. Has what it takes for deep low male vocals and mic'ing a bass amp
Method
Make a cab around the Logitech sub. Don't make a new box for it. Make a box that fits the whole sub, and the drivers from the satellites either side. You can use a switched TRS type socket here with a clear label. Think about it, when nothing is plugged into the connected, the internal satellites are on. Plug in external passive speakers and the internal speakers stop. The Logitech will also allow you to put individual pre outs on the cab to run external active speakers
Now you have an all-in-one 2.1 box with amps and speakers and comprehensive line ins and outs. Time to add a preamp for the bass and mic. I can link something in PM for this
Now you have a bass amp that has an aux and mic input and can be used in school after obtaining a cord tag from a sparky
Time to add a studio to this. Build your pair of active desktop speakers using two of those TPA3116 2.1 boards and speakers like the ones I can link you over PM. These can stay on your desk as your main music speakers and hook up to the cab when jamming and if needed. Attach the AG06 to this from its master out to the Aux in of your new bass amp. Keep the AG06 on the desk for home studio use
Plug the AG06 into the USB port of your PC or tablet
Recording
Kids take to FL Studio mobile and garage band like ducks to water. In my testing, these are the only two mobile DAWs worth using. The others are @#$%. FL costs a small price and GarageBand comes with Apple. These can record a stereo track coming from the AG03 or layer instrument after instrument for a solo producer. The best thing is that the drum sequencers are the easiest for a kid to master, and they can set up their own backing to jam along with their instruments. The AGo6 can receive a stereo track from the DAW over USB
FL Studio for PC is expansive, but the trial in only limited to saving and no time limitations. A good way of buying FL studio is to actually buy the AKAI Fire controller. You get a license with it. I have ordered one and waiting on delivery. The PC version also contains FL mobile as a plugin, so all work done on the tablet can be natively further worked on with the PC. Your daughter can fire up the plugin on the PC to work in a familiar environment. There are other DAWs, but this one is magic for kids. There are 7" touch screens for dirt cheap on Ali, and these have an HDMI port and DIY type fittings. I am setting up two of these to get all the little windows on a dedicated screen with the main things on the big screen over them
This is our setup and I think it has most bugs already ironed out and very adaptable and reliable. I did it this way, so it can be a dedicated portable mini studio for a kid that can attach to a more complex setup. The next evolution of the mini studio, I am renovating my workshop and studio. I am moving the electronics bench to the same room as my home studio to work in the nicer environment and to share screens and PC as well as sound cards. While making the new furniture, I am going to make a small desk on wheels. This will have an iPad mounted over the Akai Mpk mini Play mk3 and the DAW and controller. The amp cab on a shelf under the desk. A pair of Aux speakers mounted on the desk. A guitar holder also on the side of the desk. A mic on a stand on the desk. Jiya would be able to wheel her mini studio up to the main desk to play it like a digital instrument. It will live at her study desk
A lot to absorb, hit me up if you have any questions. I hope you find something of use in that and take my writings as recommendations that have worked for us. Well done on being a good-involved dad. I hope you all have a lot of fun
Regards
Randy
Studio for 10yr old to take through to the end of high school and enable family participation
Monitor system. This seems to be your main interest, with easy and comprehensive integration, right?
Hers is based on the Logitech Z623. High output, full range 2.1 system, rugged durability drivers and amps built in containing correct power supply setup. This is a THX certified system, so it's built to actually work to that standard. The pre section contains a built-in line level mixer with 3 sets of stereo input, as well as jfets in that circuitry. It sings and distorts very musically. The bass knob adds a great shape and tone to bass guitars. This system would be a great investment and would serve a purpose for very many years. My original one has lasted since release, and I have added 3 more sets to my spare's collection since then. It's a cheap system and would really serve much better than the TPA3116 type boards due to the Logitech having genuine 140wrms ability and runs a matched bass driver on it. This will save you money over time in my opinion as I regard it as a complete mini PA. I have DJ'ed with it at small functions many times. The TPA board really does not have the power it takes to make a bass guitar sound great in a small system, can't run the required type of driver very well. It can be used very well as an amplifier fitted into an active speaker to supplement or replace the Logitech satellites. You will need two such boards, one for each side. Make a box with two full range 6" drivers and one 8 or 10 inch woofer. Then, combined with the Logitech, you will have a grand mini PA. I have similar for larger parties and run two Logitech subs and turn the Logitech satellites towards me on the desk as the DJ booth type monitor
The best part about working with the Logitech as the basis is that it has very easy access to all the inputs and outputs of the amps inside, as well as all the preamp section. You might be able to use your 4.1, but I would be able to think how they would sound
Preamps
Mic and bass will need preamps to run with any hi-fi type system, including the Logitech or your TPA. Gnobuddy's suggestion of a small mixer is a good one, but choose one that will work very well with the bass. I tested lots and found that the Yamaha Dpre mic preamp on their mixers sounds better than the guitar inputs on other similar mixers. I had the MG12Xu already, but would recommend the AG06 for you as a minimum. Again, a professional unit that will last forever and still be useful if replaced with better or larger in the future
The AG06 will give you inputs to run one bass, one mic, and a stereo keyboard, as well as receive a stereo channel from a PC over USB and send a stereo channel of all the stuff in the mix to a software or hardware recorder. The more channels you buy, the more flexibility for the future. These Yamahas don't have the flat tone and great long-lasting investment
Keyboard
There are so many small beginner types out there and they all pretty much sound like toys. Don't even bother if you want to practice and learn in a good sound environment. I got Jiya a very large Yamaha E463 for a few hundred dollars, and we can't live with it. It's too big, it's an eyesore, it also sounds like a toy. Its getting donated. Two weeks ago, I got her an AKAI Mpk mini Play mk3. This is a tiny little keyboard controller that is built very well and has built in sounds too. This controls all sorts of software instruments that sound so much better than the toy like sounds of most electronic keyboards. Even the built-in sounds are very good. This device also controls all the knobs and things in the software and is very simple to learn and use. The stereo output is excellent to hook up to the mixer, and you now end up with a total of 3 sets of headphone outs to use as personal monitors and even aux outs and sends
Best thing about this keyboard, on top of already brilliant features, two people can play this at the same time. Your son can play the keys, you on the drum pads, your daughter on the bass and some drunk on the mic. All at the same time and all plugged into the AG03 and that plugged in to the Logitech. A full mini band that is totally portable if 200w of solar/battery and an inverter is used. I use our rig for the practice in the park on the council stage. The tiny Logitech is very good in the open air environment too
Bass
The squire is an entry level and ok but is not designed for little fingers. If your daughter is fine playing it, then all good. If she is struggling with fret buzz and reach and stuff, then a regular electric rebuilt as a bass works awesome. Tunes very well and only need to replace tuners, bridge and strings. The old tuner holes can be filled in with wood flour and epoxy putty and redrilled for 4 holes. This sounds better than a squire in the hands with little fingers due to string setup and reach
Mics
For a small budget family studio, the Samson C7 is my pick. Stupid strong, very free of catching unwanted noise and feedback. Has what it takes for deep low male vocals and mic'ing a bass amp
Method
Make a cab around the Logitech sub. Don't make a new box for it. Make a box that fits the whole sub, and the drivers from the satellites either side. You can use a switched TRS type socket here with a clear label. Think about it, when nothing is plugged into the connected, the internal satellites are on. Plug in external passive speakers and the internal speakers stop. The Logitech will also allow you to put individual pre outs on the cab to run external active speakers
Now you have an all-in-one 2.1 box with amps and speakers and comprehensive line ins and outs. Time to add a preamp for the bass and mic. I can link something in PM for this
Now you have a bass amp that has an aux and mic input and can be used in school after obtaining a cord tag from a sparky
Time to add a studio to this. Build your pair of active desktop speakers using two of those TPA3116 2.1 boards and speakers like the ones I can link you over PM. These can stay on your desk as your main music speakers and hook up to the cab when jamming and if needed. Attach the AG06 to this from its master out to the Aux in of your new bass amp. Keep the AG06 on the desk for home studio use
Plug the AG06 into the USB port of your PC or tablet
Recording
Kids take to FL Studio mobile and garage band like ducks to water. In my testing, these are the only two mobile DAWs worth using. The others are @#$%. FL costs a small price and GarageBand comes with Apple. These can record a stereo track coming from the AG03 or layer instrument after instrument for a solo producer. The best thing is that the drum sequencers are the easiest for a kid to master, and they can set up their own backing to jam along with their instruments. The AGo6 can receive a stereo track from the DAW over USB
FL Studio for PC is expansive, but the trial in only limited to saving and no time limitations. A good way of buying FL studio is to actually buy the AKAI Fire controller. You get a license with it. I have ordered one and waiting on delivery. The PC version also contains FL mobile as a plugin, so all work done on the tablet can be natively further worked on with the PC. Your daughter can fire up the plugin on the PC to work in a familiar environment. There are other DAWs, but this one is magic for kids. There are 7" touch screens for dirt cheap on Ali, and these have an HDMI port and DIY type fittings. I am setting up two of these to get all the little windows on a dedicated screen with the main things on the big screen over them
This is our setup and I think it has most bugs already ironed out and very adaptable and reliable. I did it this way, so it can be a dedicated portable mini studio for a kid that can attach to a more complex setup. The next evolution of the mini studio, I am renovating my workshop and studio. I am moving the electronics bench to the same room as my home studio to work in the nicer environment and to share screens and PC as well as sound cards. While making the new furniture, I am going to make a small desk on wheels. This will have an iPad mounted over the Akai Mpk mini Play mk3 and the DAW and controller. The amp cab on a shelf under the desk. A pair of Aux speakers mounted on the desk. A guitar holder also on the side of the desk. A mic on a stand on the desk. Jiya would be able to wheel her mini studio up to the main desk to play it like a digital instrument. It will live at her study desk
A lot to absorb, hit me up if you have any questions. I hope you find something of use in that and take my writings as recommendations that have worked for us. Well done on being a good-involved dad. I hope you all have a lot of fun
Regards
Randy
Thank you, Randy!
This is a lot of info: not all of it I will build but all is very very useful for getting me oriented!
I will start small: with a single XLR-to-1/8 unbalanced mono jack cable, which I should be getting tonight. I'll make sure it is wired correctly according to this info, probably from Gnobuddy, which I found here in another thread, plug the output of the bass combo pedal into the TPA3116 stereo amp I already have and see how I like the result on two ELAC bookshelf speakers + ELAC active subwoofer.
I also need to decide if I even need a separate bass speaker or I can live with the Basic 10W Fender guitar amp that I got in the Fender Strat Squire bundle given that for the foreseeable future - at least a year all we will be playing is our living room. Perhaps all I need is a mixer to wire the two guitars through this amp.
(The amp buzzes, and the buzz diminishes when i touch the strings or the jack casing - I am guessing it is not grounded properly, need to open and up and see what's going on inside but that's a separate minor issue.)
If I do need another speaker, it is still not clear how to go about it. I appreciate your Logitech approach but I don't like it personally - just seems weird to me to buy a system and redo it this way. Perhaps if I had one lying around... Somehow I feel better either buying something closer to what I need or building one, and I REALLY like class-D amps. Perhaps all I need is a cheap TPA board like Gnobuddy suggested, and an all-range speaker?
Speaking of speakers, what is adequate in a cheap range? On amazon, I see Celestions for $100+ but I also see some cheap ones like this 5core one for under $30 - is it any good?
Next, if I build a monitor with a speaker like that, I don't need any filters do I? It goes directly to the amp speaker output right?
Or, perhaps, I can pick up an old 3-way stereo speaker with a large enough woofer like at a garage sale or something? Would it be better or worse than the above?
Anyway, thanks again for all the advice! I will undoubtedly change my mind/design a few times yet.
This is a lot of info: not all of it I will build but all is very very useful for getting me oriented!
I will start small: with a single XLR-to-1/8 unbalanced mono jack cable, which I should be getting tonight. I'll make sure it is wired correctly according to this info, probably from Gnobuddy, which I found here in another thread, plug the output of the bass combo pedal into the TPA3116 stereo amp I already have and see how I like the result on two ELAC bookshelf speakers + ELAC active subwoofer.
I also need to decide if I even need a separate bass speaker or I can live with the Basic 10W Fender guitar amp that I got in the Fender Strat Squire bundle given that for the foreseeable future - at least a year all we will be playing is our living room.
Perhaps all I need is a mixer to wire the two guitars through this amp.(The amp buzzes, and the buzz diminishes when i touch the strings or the jack casing - I am guessing it is not grounded properly, need to open and up and see what's going on inside but that's a separate minor issue.)
If I do need another speaker, it is still not clear how to go about it. I appreciate your Logitech approach but I don't like it personally - just seems weird to me to buy a system and redo it this way. Perhaps if I had one lying around... Somehow I feel better either buying something closer to what I need or building one, and I REALLY like class-D amps. Perhaps all I need is a cheap TPA board like Gnobuddy suggested, and an all-range speaker?
Speaking of speakers, what is adequate in a cheap range? On amazon, I see Celestions for $100+ but I also see some cheap ones like this 5core one for under $30 - is it any good?
Next, if I build a monitor with a speaker like that, I don't need any filters do I? It goes directly to the amp speaker output right?
Or, perhaps, I can pick up an old 3-way stereo speaker with a large enough woofer like at a garage sale or something? Would it be better or worse than the above?
Anyway, thanks again for all the advice! I will undoubtedly change my mind/design a few times yet.
Bass amps do not sound like how bass guitars from recordings sound (except for nuclear reactor class ampeg)
Why are such amps and drivers used for personal monitoring and small audiences?
What would be wrong if the amp sounded like the way the bass guitars sound in your premium hi-fi systems?
A sub type of driver with a good extended response to 300hz with lots of power thrown at it does sound like the bass guitars on the recordings. I am talking about recordings with good authoritative bass lines such as the 20k plus tracks that Robbie Shakespeare is being credited to have played on as well as good bass guitar content from other genres
This evolution makes anyone sound like a studio recording + bags of output on tap in around a cubic foot. Enough that a 7" driver can punch through each note to all in a small pub or school hall in an articulate manner with a gorgeous native tone. The problem I find is that not all can contemplate such an implementation in their minds. Actual use shows the difference, though. There is a growing number of individuals double blinking at our amp and getting a bit upset after finding out what's inside
It's taken a lot of expensive driver shopping and testing to find one that out does the driver in the Z623 for tone, depth and output with a bass guitar as well as the biggie being able to soak up huge movements from hard thumbing. Remember, the Z623 driver and amp can dish out a T. rex foot thump at THX levels. This is something where some deep thinking really needs to be applied first
Secondly, what better and cheaper way to shop for a bunch of very competent circuit boards and speaker drivers that already work together. When the aim is to build for the long term and not experiments
I have all the time to explain and advocate this type of implementation that uses proven parts and offers huge amounts of integration and sound, as I hope that more folks would explore this
Why are such amps and drivers used for personal monitoring and small audiences?
What would be wrong if the amp sounded like the way the bass guitars sound in your premium hi-fi systems?
A sub type of driver with a good extended response to 300hz with lots of power thrown at it does sound like the bass guitars on the recordings. I am talking about recordings with good authoritative bass lines such as the 20k plus tracks that Robbie Shakespeare is being credited to have played on as well as good bass guitar content from other genres
This evolution makes anyone sound like a studio recording + bags of output on tap in around a cubic foot. Enough that a 7" driver can punch through each note to all in a small pub or school hall in an articulate manner with a gorgeous native tone. The problem I find is that not all can contemplate such an implementation in their minds. Actual use shows the difference, though. There is a growing number of individuals double blinking at our amp and getting a bit upset after finding out what's inside
It's taken a lot of expensive driver shopping and testing to find one that out does the driver in the Z623 for tone, depth and output with a bass guitar as well as the biggie being able to soak up huge movements from hard thumbing. Remember, the Z623 driver and amp can dish out a T. rex foot thump at THX levels. This is something where some deep thinking really needs to be applied first
Secondly, what better and cheaper way to shop for a bunch of very competent circuit boards and speaker drivers that already work together. When the aim is to build for the long term and not experiments
I have all the time to explain and advocate this type of implementation that uses proven parts and offers huge amounts of integration and sound, as I hope that more folks would explore this
Hi, you need help, for sure.
There is a lot of PA gear that can be used in HIFI. There is hardly any HIFI gear that can be used for PA, usually even a try will melt it. The hardware talk in this thread really hurts. Sorry to say.
The best advice I can give to you: Talk to your daughters bass teacher. He should be able to point you to something useful. Do not take advice from people that want to sell you anything. You are really new to this stuff and an easy prey.
Instead of buying cheap, new gear, consider used, better stuff for the same money. Carefully check prices before buying, don't trust any seller. I often find used gear, years old and worn, for a higher price than you will pay for it, new on sale.
Musicians in most cases are poor, have lost a lot of money for their dreams and need to make profit even on old, defective junk, as most have been ripped off, too and think this is legitimate to do so with beginners. Sorry to say so. Reality bites. My daughter plays the guitar....
A very good compromise for home use may be a pair of monitor speaker's, such a thing that is sitting on the floor and points to the musician.
With a 15" speaker and a usually a small horn, this can reproduce bass guitar, lead and keyboards.
Such “wedges” are great party speaker's too and, with a sub woofer, can even make a small beginner PA.
Try before you buy!
Maybe record your own music and play it in a shop or at the sellers place, this will give you a good idea how well it may work for you.
You will need a small mixer and an amp too. Then you can start the first club tour with your family trio.
Good luck!
There is a lot of PA gear that can be used in HIFI. There is hardly any HIFI gear that can be used for PA, usually even a try will melt it. The hardware talk in this thread really hurts. Sorry to say.
The best advice I can give to you: Talk to your daughters bass teacher. He should be able to point you to something useful. Do not take advice from people that want to sell you anything. You are really new to this stuff and an easy prey.
Instead of buying cheap, new gear, consider used, better stuff for the same money. Carefully check prices before buying, don't trust any seller. I often find used gear, years old and worn, for a higher price than you will pay for it, new on sale.
Musicians in most cases are poor, have lost a lot of money for their dreams and need to make profit even on old, defective junk, as most have been ripped off, too and think this is legitimate to do so with beginners. Sorry to say so. Reality bites. My daughter plays the guitar....
A very good compromise for home use may be a pair of monitor speaker's, such a thing that is sitting on the floor and points to the musician.
With a 15" speaker and a usually a small horn, this can reproduce bass guitar, lead and keyboards.
Such “wedges” are great party speaker's too and, with a sub woofer, can even make a small beginner PA.
Try before you buy!
Maybe record your own music and play it in a shop or at the sellers place, this will give you a good idea how well it may work for you.
You will need a small mixer and an amp too. Then you can start the first club tour with your family trio.
Good luck!
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Could you explain or give some pointers or links? I really don't know the difference. Naively (?), I am too thinking: "if a hifi recording with a bass guitar sounds amazing on my audio system, why can't my own bass sound amazing on the same system?"
What am I missing?
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This makes A LOT of sense to me. I am a physisist by training, so I accept actual explanations with reasons like this more naturally than I would take blanket expert opinion on faith.
That said, I do not want to dismiss the opinions of people with tons of experience. Leadbelly and Turbowatch2 probably have good reasons for their way. Can it be explained to a skeptic like me? I am new to the world of guitars and guitar audio for sure, and my thinking might be naive.
I wonder how much of the old-school advice is somewhat outdated tradition, and how much is a strict necessity? I heard the advice about used good gear vs cheap new: I find it at least partially incomplete. For example, I bought the cheapest Fender Squire strat. It was ok out of the box, might have been bad - if one knows nothing about tuning or is not willing to learn. I am the other way around: I spent an hour googling and adjusting neck relief, checking and adjusting string action, intonation, and pickup heights. I also replaced the strings to David Gilmour signature
So, I suspect that for $200 + an hour of googling and work, I got maybe $500 worth of guitar? I might be wrong of course. But I also saw a very popular guitar blogger not being able to tell blindly a $150 strat, from $1000 strat from $3000 custom shop strat. So...
Just do a first hand test, for some people this is the best way to learn.
Plug the bass of your kiddo into your stereo and let her play a little while. Not too loud, just enough to feel a little vibration from the bass. 5 minutes should do. After replacing the defective HIFI speaker you will start to understand.
A PA (or instrument speaker) needs only 1 Watt of input power for the sound pressure level you get from 100 Watt into your HIFI speaker.
Your HIFI speaker has less than .5% effiency, and will use 99.5 Watt to heat up the voice coil. The glue holding the wire on the coil will melt and the speaker will be beyond repair. For this sound pressure level the PA speaker will only burn .9 Watt, which does not even make it warm up.
Maybe start reading about loudspeaker: dB, Watt, cone area, exponential functions, frequency and efficency. Just basic stuff we all learned at high school. Just used right...
By the way, a bass speaker needs a tweeter. You may not know.
Your Strat will grill the tweeter of your HIFI before the woofer's fail. The only difference.
Plug the bass of your kiddo into your stereo and let her play a little while. Not too loud, just enough to feel a little vibration from the bass. 5 minutes should do. After replacing the defective HIFI speaker you will start to understand.
A PA (or instrument speaker) needs only 1 Watt of input power for the sound pressure level you get from 100 Watt into your HIFI speaker.
Your HIFI speaker has less than .5% effiency, and will use 99.5 Watt to heat up the voice coil. The glue holding the wire on the coil will melt and the speaker will be beyond repair. For this sound pressure level the PA speaker will only burn .9 Watt, which does not even make it warm up.
Maybe start reading about loudspeaker: dB, Watt, cone area, exponential functions, frequency and efficency. Just basic stuff we all learned at high school. Just used right...
By the way, a bass speaker needs a tweeter. You may not know.
Your Strat will grill the tweeter of your HIFI before the woofer's fail. The only difference.
See my recommendation of using a small Yamaha console as a good, cheap but awesome source of multiple preamp channels. Some deep thinking can demonstrate the following
The output from a console is fine to input into any amplifier such as domestic, car and pro
It has output level controls, good ones and multiple options and good effects to eliminate a lot of pedals
The input channels have 3 bands of analog filters, compression knob, trim knob, plenty of gain and forgiving distortion
One would have to be pretty incompetent to DI a bass into one channel and set levels to get a good tone and safe output levels for any amp
This is where you get your hi-fi recording channels from. It's called channel setup plus mastering. It's like a magic buffer between pro and consumer
The mastering process doesn't mind if you do it live. Live reggae dub or EDM concerts as examples
Seriously? A hi-fi headphone doesn't melt when plugged into such a console. Everyone is now used to using headphone outs to feed amplifiers these days. If one is that scared of melting things, then just take that signal and turn the headphone volume down just like it's done on the phone when one is pestering a DJ or cabbie to plug in
Food for some thought
Say you were making a sound system to play back your fav bass guitar tracks with articulate authority. Would a traditional bass guitar driver survive or even perform. One would be very annoyed that it doesn't sound as clean and deep as even a cheap soundbar. These bass amps are just meant to dum dum along and nothing serious
The output from a console is fine to input into any amplifier such as domestic, car and pro
It has output level controls, good ones and multiple options and good effects to eliminate a lot of pedals
The input channels have 3 bands of analog filters, compression knob, trim knob, plenty of gain and forgiving distortion
One would have to be pretty incompetent to DI a bass into one channel and set levels to get a good tone and safe output levels for any amp
This is where you get your hi-fi recording channels from. It's called channel setup plus mastering. It's like a magic buffer between pro and consumer
The mastering process doesn't mind if you do it live. Live reggae dub or EDM concerts as examples
Seriously? A hi-fi headphone doesn't melt when plugged into such a console. Everyone is now used to using headphone outs to feed amplifiers these days. If one is that scared of melting things, then just take that signal and turn the headphone volume down just like it's done on the phone when one is pestering a DJ or cabbie to plug in
Food for some thought
Say you were making a sound system to play back your fav bass guitar tracks with articulate authority. Would a traditional bass guitar driver survive or even perform. One would be very annoyed that it doesn't sound as clean and deep as even a cheap soundbar. These bass amps are just meant to dum dum along and nothing serious
Thank you. Let me try to understand what you're saying, and perhaps explain myself better, there is a failure to communicate.
Are you saying that it's a bad idea to PLUG A GUITAR DIRECTLY INTO HIFI AUX? If so, I agree, and I did not plan to. Guitar pickups are supposed to be fed into a high-impedance input. What I had in mind is taking the XLR output of a pedal box that I have, effectively a di box, converting it to unbalanced and feeding THAT into hifi.
I think it should work. Am I missing something?
Because record is very different to live.
Recording/mastering engineers are working very hard, using expensive hardware, to capture and manipulate (in a good way) the live sound and transfer it to the medium (CD, vinyl, ...), so you can recreate it through your hi-fi equipment and get a good resemblance of the live sound.
If you play electric guitar directly (via pedal box), its raw, unprocessed, natural signal will fry your hi-fi tweeters/midranges in a second.
Recording/mastering engineers are working very hard, using expensive hardware, to capture and manipulate (in a good way) the live sound and transfer it to the medium (CD, vinyl, ...), so you can recreate it through your hi-fi equipment and get a good resemblance of the live sound.
If you play electric guitar directly (via pedal box), its raw, unprocessed, natural signal will fry your hi-fi tweeters/midranges in a second.
Man, it's like trying to pull teeth. All you will find are the blanket comments with all references to actual pre mastering types process and level setters completely ignored
Keep in mind that a great majority of small bass amp owners haven't heard and or do not know about full sound capabilities of their instrument. It is impossible for them as it would require plugging into a competent full audio spectrum monitor system and not just a rumbly thing
Most will deny that a bass guitar signal can be level adjusted to match with any amplification
Most will be in denial of high fidelity consumer market recording of the bass instrument, some will claim synth and vst tricks
Most bass players would have never got the chance to plug into a decent console and full spectrum monitor
The loudest protesters would be those trying to defend big bucks spent on a name that turned out to have a lame driver and toy amp inside that makes bass sound lame. It's bass, not just mid bass or upper bass. All of bass
Most bass players will not be competent with mic'ing and channel strip setup of the lower ranges as all they would have ever used are amps that can never properly do that spectrum
Most bass players would not be working with music that demands the full spectrum from the bass guitar
One has to realise that the beginner market is the real bread and butter earner that pays for the cost of the high-end design. What goes into these small amps are the cheapest drivers and electronics the maker can get. As the lame speaker driver will not need any decent amplification. If folks discover the depths of power in the instrument, then toy amps will not sell. Makers will have to use a real bass speaker and these cost a lot more money and need better power to be driven
Now before one goes all offended and things, use your head, actually plug your bass into a Yamaha console as a minimum and run that to a system with a sub that can reach actually reach below 34hz. If that doesn't lay bare the full depth and power of the bass guitar, then get the smalls in a knot
Keep in mind that a great majority of small bass amp owners haven't heard and or do not know about full sound capabilities of their instrument. It is impossible for them as it would require plugging into a competent full audio spectrum monitor system and not just a rumbly thing
Most will deny that a bass guitar signal can be level adjusted to match with any amplification
Most will be in denial of high fidelity consumer market recording of the bass instrument, some will claim synth and vst tricks
Most bass players would have never got the chance to plug into a decent console and full spectrum monitor
The loudest protesters would be those trying to defend big bucks spent on a name that turned out to have a lame driver and toy amp inside that makes bass sound lame. It's bass, not just mid bass or upper bass. All of bass
Most bass players will not be competent with mic'ing and channel strip setup of the lower ranges as all they would have ever used are amps that can never properly do that spectrum
Most bass players would not be working with music that demands the full spectrum from the bass guitar
One has to realise that the beginner market is the real bread and butter earner that pays for the cost of the high-end design. What goes into these small amps are the cheapest drivers and electronics the maker can get. As the lame speaker driver will not need any decent amplification. If folks discover the depths of power in the instrument, then toy amps will not sell. Makers will have to use a real bass speaker and these cost a lot more money and need better power to be driven
Now before one goes all offended and things, use your head, actually plug your bass into a Yamaha console as a minimum and run that to a system with a sub that can reach actually reach below 34hz. If that doesn't lay bare the full depth and power of the bass guitar, then get the smalls in a knot
That's just wrong, the competent engineers would be live monitoring that signal as they master it
It is going to play live from their monitor speaker system, not a lame little amp. Who records an unmonitored signal?
If that 3 way or desktops and sub can do it for the engineer, then it can do it for you. Not all band engineers will master a bass through a Neve either or do much DAW based post-processing. There are more poor, small, garage and home studios and these will more likely be using the same small Yamaha and similar consoles
Come on guys, stop ignoring the output level controls, it does a real job
Really competent engineers do not use skimpy hi-fi loudspeakers to monitor the live signal!
Also, that live signal is tightly controlled/monitored before it hits the loudspeakers - first it is going through the mixing console with peak-meters!
OP didn't mention any mixing console (with VU/peak meters), he wants to connect bass-guitar directly (via pedal box) to the hi-fi amp and speakers!
Also, that live signal is tightly controlled/monitored before it hits the loudspeakers - first it is going through the mixing console with peak-meters!
OP didn't mention any mixing console (with VU/peak meters), he wants to connect bass-guitar directly (via pedal box) to the hi-fi amp and speakers!
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