Weltersys,
Thanks for sharing your test of the Tymphany TC9FD in a horn. I would only do maybe a 3:1 compression ratio phase plug with rather large slots. It may help some but I am not expecting magic. It turns out I have been lucky enough to get good performance by EQ boosting the HF falloff.
Thanks for sharing your test of the Tymphany TC9FD in a horn. I would only do maybe a 3:1 compression ratio phase plug with rather large slots. It may help some but I am not expecting magic. It turns out I have been lucky enough to get good performance by EQ boosting the HF falloff.
I posted over in the multi way synergy thread to see if anyone has or contemplated trying the Selenium d250 X midrange 1" CD for mid use in a small form factor synergy but no responses. The response graphs look very promising and the distortion #s are fantastic.
Mayhem,
Thanks for pointing out the D250. I just looked at it and it does reach surprisingly low down to 500Hz but falls off above 5kHz. As a mid, it seems pretty good but I don't see that it has better distortion performance than the full range cone drivers. The spec sheet shows about -30dB HD at 2.83v. I think I was in the -40dB range with TC9 and even lower with the 10F. Plus those drivers can be EQ'd to play louder and achieve output in the HF's for a full range from 400Hz to 20kHz. But it is a cost effective option to consider - needs a 1in throat though. I wonder if one could use several of these side-tapped (no band pass chamber) as mids on a synergy? The rather large diameter of the body may make it difficult to get it close to the apex for side injection vs a small 2in dia cone mid or full range.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-204--d250-x-spec-sheet.pdf
Thanks for pointing out the D250. I just looked at it and it does reach surprisingly low down to 500Hz but falls off above 5kHz. As a mid, it seems pretty good but I don't see that it has better distortion performance than the full range cone drivers. The spec sheet shows about -30dB HD at 2.83v. I think I was in the -40dB range with TC9 and even lower with the 10F. Plus those drivers can be EQ'd to play louder and achieve output in the HF's for a full range from 400Hz to 20kHz. But it is a cost effective option to consider - needs a 1in throat though. I wonder if one could use several of these side-tapped (no band pass chamber) as mids on a synergy? The rather large diameter of the body may make it difficult to get it close to the apex for side injection vs a small 2in dia cone mid or full range.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-204--d250-x-spec-sheet.pdf
I am quited some time, but I need to help mother who is 84 and just back from hospital because of galbladder surgery.
She need to recover and I helping.
when it go better I am back here, but sometimes between I am here for look what happens.
Mother is more important for me then synery horn this moment.
regards
She need to recover and I helping.
when it go better I am back here, but sometimes between I am here for look what happens.
Mother is more important for me then synery horn this moment.
regards
A low cost molded plastic tractrix similar in size to my micro Trynergy at 8.5in X 13in and 2in throat (round to square transition) would be very cool.
There was a thread where Martinsson took a commercial JBL 2386 horn (big 40x20 deg bi radial - appears to be beaucoup bux though, pardon my French Eldam ) and stuck a 2in Tang Band on it with similar success.
http://www.sound-image.com/wp-content/uploads/JBL_2386.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/205146-2-madness-hornloading-tb-w2-803sm.html
I should take a clue and try his passive EQ circuit
And got this:
These JBL's can be had for cheap on used market though and with bass injection holes cut in them can make a suitable basis for a Brynergy (biradial-synergy). These are spec'd to horn load down to about 350Hz so seems perfect for adding bass injection ports.
Thanks for reminding me of this thread Eldam. A quick search shows that 29 used units of this bi radial horn are available on East Coast of US for $35 ea!
I may have to buy a pair! 🙂 not so beaucoup bux anymore 🙂
This passive circuit is with extra resistors because it it is less then 6 dB fall off for that horn but also when fall of is higher and correct without loose lower part of output.
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Kees,
Wishing your mother a speedy recovery. Let's catch up when you get back. I have been working on putting an enclosure around my little Trynergy. In seems to improve the bass dramatically - I have not put on the back cover on yet - sort of like an open back guitar cabinet but with band pass loaded fronts. It's getting down to 50Hz now with no EQ. This was quite unexpected. Sounds quite full range and fantastic with no sub needed. Glue is still drying will post pics and data soon.
Wishing your mother a speedy recovery. Let's catch up when you get back. I have been working on putting an enclosure around my little Trynergy. In seems to improve the bass dramatically - I have not put on the back cover on yet - sort of like an open back guitar cabinet but with band pass loaded fronts. It's getting down to 50Hz now with no EQ. This was quite unexpected. Sounds quite full range and fantastic with no sub needed. Glue is still drying will post pics and data soon.
That is what I also do, making a triangle form for placing in a corner, I do not now if I have to make two compartments or one for all woofers.
I think you make two independent compartmens for a two chamber bass, also the tqs is very important when decide how big it will be.
I think one box for all woofer is the best way to prevent fase problems.
Thanks for mother, I will tell, but she is quite fast with recovering, eating a big peace of meat yesterday, because she has polio in WW2 she is paralized for a part.
But it is indeed a very nice outcome with your bass, maybe even a smaller horn and a sub will even be better.
I made a HF cone for on the visaton, test it coming week if it go so well with mother.
regards
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I made one chamber and angled the panels to sort of form a triangle to reduce the volume. I was aiming for 22 liters for all 4 drivers which gives the best performance according to my sims. The volume in the end is a best effort as I am not sure how close it is to the ideal size. A lot depends on practical things like enough room to fit drivers and allows hands room for clearance to adjust wires etc. I sort of built the box around the main horn so the woofers are pretty much stuck inside unless I remove them via surgery on a foam panel. The full range should be replaceable from a removable back panel though. Here is a progress photo. One of the angled panels had not been installed yet.
Attachments
Some dynamite wil help😀
But looks good.
No resonance with that stuff you use? but maybe foam do damp from itselfs better then wood.
You did the way I have also in mind except it looks like you let open the back? maybe it put things even lower and give some open sound like a open baffle, kind of free bass.
regards
uTrynergy open back box
I was intending to make a sealed box, with the option to go bass reflex vented. In building it, I left the rear panel off for final install of a removable panel. So I turned it on and listened to it and the dipole bass really surprised me. In a way, it resembles a band pass slot loaded sub woofer with open U frame back. The full range mid/tweet is also free to radiate to the back too. Anyhow, the bass digs pretty deep and I can get about 90dB at 50Hz with only 2% HD. The cool thing is that as it is an "OB" woofer system, the group delay is very low - under 5ms at 50Hz.
Material is all 1in thick XPS "Foamular" from in 2ft x 2ft sheets at HD. Low VOC Liquid Nails adhesive and hot melt tack with some screws to clamp for curing. As it is still drying, I have it rotated 90deg to not put any shear stress on the (still wet) glue joints.
Here are photos:
Here is measured acoustic XO (Harsch at 500Hz implemented with BW4 on LPF and LR2 on HPF with 0.92 ms delay):
Here is phase:
Here is impulse and step response, there is ringing but it is so fast (22kHz), it can't be heard and does not add sibillance:
Here is group delay (with 1/2 oct smoothing for clarity) - 4.5ms at 50Hz:
Here is distortion - not as low as the bigger Trynergy as the little Tang Band 2in driver has to move a bit more. At 1kHz getting 0.25% at 90dB and 2% at 50Hz. There is a nasty peak at 9kHz that I am not sure what it is caused by - still investigating. I think the foam core construction is causing the higher than general distortion in the lower octaves:
How does it sound? Limited listening experience, but so far I am very happy with it - sounds excellent and great for all genre's. Great dynamic range and ability to go from very soft to very loud, fast. Excellent highs, the ringing is not noticeable. The bass is very immediate and rich and reminds me of bass from a 12in open baffle. The low group delay and Harsch XO combine to give excellent percussion reproduction. My test track with Chick Corea's trio confirms this. Vocals are very fluid - both male and female are rendered well. I was surprised how good piano sounds as I was expecting some of the tizzy to be a problem - the ringing is at 22kHz so is pretty much inaudible.
Sound clip of jazz trio (piano, stand up bass, drums) and jazz vocals with saxophone, change .asc to .mp3 to listen.
I was intending to make a sealed box, with the option to go bass reflex vented. In building it, I left the rear panel off for final install of a removable panel. So I turned it on and listened to it and the dipole bass really surprised me. In a way, it resembles a band pass slot loaded sub woofer with open U frame back. The full range mid/tweet is also free to radiate to the back too. Anyhow, the bass digs pretty deep and I can get about 90dB at 50Hz with only 2% HD. The cool thing is that as it is an "OB" woofer system, the group delay is very low - under 5ms at 50Hz.
Material is all 1in thick XPS "Foamular" from in 2ft x 2ft sheets at HD. Low VOC Liquid Nails adhesive and hot melt tack with some screws to clamp for curing. As it is still drying, I have it rotated 90deg to not put any shear stress on the (still wet) glue joints.
Here are photos:
Here is measured acoustic XO (Harsch at 500Hz implemented with BW4 on LPF and LR2 on HPF with 0.92 ms delay):
Here is phase:
Here is impulse and step response, there is ringing but it is so fast (22kHz), it can't be heard and does not add sibillance:
Here is group delay (with 1/2 oct smoothing for clarity) - 4.5ms at 50Hz:
Here is distortion - not as low as the bigger Trynergy as the little Tang Band 2in driver has to move a bit more. At 1kHz getting 0.25% at 90dB and 2% at 50Hz. There is a nasty peak at 9kHz that I am not sure what it is caused by - still investigating. I think the foam core construction is causing the higher than general distortion in the lower octaves:
How does it sound? Limited listening experience, but so far I am very happy with it - sounds excellent and great for all genre's. Great dynamic range and ability to go from very soft to very loud, fast. Excellent highs, the ringing is not noticeable. The bass is very immediate and rich and reminds me of bass from a 12in open baffle. The low group delay and Harsch XO combine to give excellent percussion reproduction. My test track with Chick Corea's trio confirms this. Vocals are very fluid - both male and female are rendered well. I was surprised how good piano sounds as I was expecting some of the tizzy to be a problem - the ringing is at 22kHz so is pretty much inaudible.
Sound clip of jazz trio (piano, stand up bass, drums) and jazz vocals with saxophone, change .asc to .mp3 to listen.
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X-
Ringing at 22kHz is likely a measurement artifact -- any time you convert from frequency domain to time domain (such freq response to impulse response, as done in log-sweep measurements), you will see apparent "ringing" at the frequency where the data in the frequency response stops. The FFT processes as if the data above the highest frequency just goes to -infinitydB, which would be a bad brickwall response that rings. In reality, the system just doesn't know what the response is above about 22kHz, it likely droops then rolls off in a minimum phase nature, without the artificial ringing.
This happens with speakers that still have output beyond half the sample rate. The ringing COULD be real, if the driver drops like a rock there (was it EQ'd using a big resonant peak?), but I would be suspicious.
Ringing at 22kHz is likely a measurement artifact -- any time you convert from frequency domain to time domain (such freq response to impulse response, as done in log-sweep measurements), you will see apparent "ringing" at the frequency where the data in the frequency response stops. The FFT processes as if the data above the highest frequency just goes to -infinitydB, which would be a bad brickwall response that rings. In reality, the system just doesn't know what the response is above about 22kHz, it likely droops then rolls off in a minimum phase nature, without the artificial ringing.
This happens with speakers that still have output beyond half the sample rate. The ringing COULD be real, if the driver drops like a rock there (was it EQ'd using a big resonant peak?), but I would be suspicious.
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Bwaslo,
Thanks - good to know. I do see a peak on the frequency response at the 22kHz though and sort of matches the rising peak from manufacturer's data (which stops at 20kHz but peak shoulder, with apparent peak at 20k is still visible).
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-808-tang-band-w2-852sh-specifications-45644.pdf
Thanks - good to know. I do see a peak on the frequency response at the 22kHz though and sort of matches the rising peak from manufacturer's data (which stops at 20kHz but peak shoulder, with apparent peak at 20k is still visible).
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-808-tang-band-w2-852sh-specifications-45644.pdf
Small bit of info😉
Glidden 'Gripper' Latex Primer makes for an Outstandingly Good ..Glue.. for Foam. Apply it as if painting.. dohh.
It dries (within 48 hours) in the middle of a pair of 4x 8 sheets of Dow foam.
A good as Epoxy bond too.
Glidden 'Gripper' Latex Primer makes for an Outstandingly Good ..Glue.. for Foam. Apply it as if painting.. dohh.
It dries (within 48 hours) in the middle of a pair of 4x 8 sheets of Dow foam.
A good as Epoxy bond too.
Bare,
Thanks for the tip. Now I know how to make a thick sheet with some damping in between. The Liquid Nails is good for filling large gaps that I have when putting the final piece on.
Thanks for the tip. Now I know how to make a thick sheet with some damping in between. The Liquid Nails is good for filling large gaps that I have when putting the final piece on.
Sound clip of bowed stand up bass
This is perhaps one of the best reproductions of a bass I have heard - it is so lifelike because of the sheer dynamics and transient accuracy. If I close my eyes, I think that the player and instrument are in my room. The open baffle nature of the rear of this speaker plus the great dynamic reserve from the front horn all work together to sound really good. I think a hybrid tractrix horn and OB work well together.
Change .asc to .mp3 to listen.
This is perhaps one of the best reproductions of a bass I have heard - it is so lifelike because of the sheer dynamics and transient accuracy. If I close my eyes, I think that the player and instrument are in my room. The open baffle nature of the rear of this speaker plus the great dynamic reserve from the front horn all work together to sound really good. I think a hybrid tractrix horn and OB work well together.
Change .asc to .mp3 to listen.
Looks very nice, I have a open baffle and now why it sounds so well, so open, and the idea of a dipole like back is worth experimenting.
My wil be bigger, but think about make a smaller one like you did, it is more easy to put somewhere.
It is also interesting to close the back and listen again, the dipole peak can give trouble higher up.
regards
Ringing looks like pc runs out, higher then 22 Khz it get trouble.
The ports in the box I need center is the measurement from akabak?.
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although the tri-square gives a relative idea of size what is the overall size of the trynergy?
This statement is nonsense.
HF peaking is due to driver, and how it reacts with horn.
Time domain and frequency domain contain exact same information.