As I did hear on hornresp threat a guy says it is interaction with room, but I see it is such a strange happening.
but I have done a tapped horn in hornresp I have a 12 inch woofer who do well there.
I did see that horns do mucho better with room interactions. Open baffles and dipoles also ;-)
The sub is build as on photo in early post, I did have this one for two years now, but also had a tapped horn ready.
The sub in question is a T-TQWT sub not a tapped horn and when measure in mouth it has no dip see picture, then it looks quite good
you see just a little rest of the dip, o yes I have the mouth up in room, not close to the ground, maybe that is needed? bass is very
unforgiven for place the sub.
Tomorrow when it stops raining I go measure outside, with the mouth up and down, and in room on different places to see what happens.
These subs are made by Bjorno.
regards
but I have done a tapped horn in hornresp I have a 12 inch woofer who do well there.
I did see that horns do mucho better with room interactions. Open baffles and dipoles also ;-)
The sub is build as on photo in early post, I did have this one for two years now, but also had a tapped horn ready.
The sub in question is a T-TQWT sub not a tapped horn and when measure in mouth it has no dip see picture, then it looks quite good
you see just a little rest of the dip, o yes I have the mouth up in room, not close to the ground, maybe that is needed? bass is very
unforgiven for place the sub.
Tomorrow when it stops raining I go measure outside, with the mouth up and down, and in room on different places to see what happens.
These subs are made by Bjorno.
regards
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I have done a while a go a ML-TL these with a 12 inch woofer and these do go loud also, get wider in frequentie before get crazy, sound better then a tapped horn say some people, there are tapped horn dislikers, I have not yet try but Volvotreater likes them and he is a high end lover. The ML-TL is simmed with 1 watt input on 1 x pi.
But get first on the trybergy bas part, I do let faseplug for now and do that after the bass units are fit, I have to make a back case for the speaker that is not as easy I did see. I try to get a corner in the horn so it can put in a corner if needed.
regards
kees
But get first on the trybergy bas part, I do let faseplug for now and do that after the bass units are fit, I have to make a back case for the speaker that is not as easy I did see. I try to get a corner in the horn so it can put in a corner if needed.
regards
kees
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A question ? What is the max VAS of the woofs for the 9 liters cabinets ?
If I can swap for a standalone 10" per 9 liters cabinets (4 x 10" instead 8 x 6.5" ; cop21 spirit), should have I have to go for a driver with a VAS between 10 l to 20 l
I found the SS 10F in France 🙂 Just have to check the foam adress I found ! I believe I will name my Trynergy : "The snails" (also as a pun as it sounds fast and is FAST design 😉 ). I think I will mess up with the active things after seing if I succeed to make the horn... It's cool !
If I can swap for a standalone 10" per 9 liters cabinets (4 x 10" instead 8 x 6.5" ; cop21 spirit), should have I have to go for a driver with a VAS between 10 l to 20 l
I found the SS 10F in France 🙂 Just have to check the foam adress I found ! I believe I will name my Trynergy : "The snails" (also as a pun as it sounds fast and is FAST design 😉 ). I think I will mess up with the active things after seing if I succeed to make the horn... It's cool !
Eldam,
If you make your external rear box bigger, say a cube shape to house the horn, the rear chamber for the 10F and all the woofers, you will have a lot more volume than the 8 liters I had per 2 woofers. Ideally, make the volume about the same as Vas of you want ultimate bass extension. My rear chamber was woefully undersized as I think the Vas on 6.5in woofers were of order 30 liters each. My new 5.25in polycone buyout woofers arrived yesterday. Nicely made with good construction quality and a beefy magnet and nice surround. I tested a few of them and they are averaging 7 liters Vas ea and Qts of 0.43 and fs of 55Hz. They sound quite nice too. The frequency response has a -4dB negative high shelf at 1.2k though. An odd thing that I have never see before so that will mean they need to be used as woofers only. As mids, they would need to get crossed at 1.2k. These would indeed work well in a smaller Trynergy maybe designed to have horn loading down to 600Hz rather than 400Hz.
If you make your external rear box bigger, say a cube shape to house the horn, the rear chamber for the 10F and all the woofers, you will have a lot more volume than the 8 liters I had per 2 woofers. Ideally, make the volume about the same as Vas of you want ultimate bass extension. My rear chamber was woefully undersized as I think the Vas on 6.5in woofers were of order 30 liters each. My new 5.25in polycone buyout woofers arrived yesterday. Nicely made with good construction quality and a beefy magnet and nice surround. I tested a few of them and they are averaging 7 liters Vas ea and Qts of 0.43 and fs of 55Hz. They sound quite nice too. The frequency response has a -4dB negative high shelf at 1.2k though. An odd thing that I have never see before so that will mean they need to be used as woofers only. As mids, they would need to get crossed at 1.2k. These would indeed work well in a smaller Trynergy maybe designed to have horn loading down to 600Hz rather than 400Hz.
Eldam,
Nice you found 10F in France 🙂 i'm also bit hot on hear 10F with controlled directivity, when your foam core has arrived and confirmed for quality would you then mind share shop address.
Nice you found 10F in France 🙂 i'm also bit hot on hear 10F with controlled directivity, when your foam core has arrived and confirmed for quality would you then mind share shop address.
The one I plan to check is a medical commodities shop for soles into shoes ! They seems to sell several densities 🙂 ! I talked about it to Jeschi somewhere...
If I sucess to find sheets big enough to make the Trynergy's walls and they can not sell abroad, I will tell you both the price and may ship it to you !
Will try to check it the comming week
If I sucess to find sheets big enough to make the Trynergy's walls and they can not sell abroad, I will tell you both the price and may ship it to you !
Will try to check it the comming week
Hi xrk971
I have done in akabak some sims with the phillips and see when port deeper in horn the speaker has quite more efficienty.
I have here the sim, I go make that this way, when without the bassreflex port the phillips do not go as low for a tapped horn, so I use it also.
Oh yes, I did see the same reaction in the horn when do mismatch delay, and get the same as with my problem with the T-TQWT.
But have no answer of satisfaction, and wether do also not what I want,, so measure sub is for later care.
the best I get is this with the phillips, not bad for such old speaker.
regards
I have done in akabak some sims with the phillips and see when port deeper in horn the speaker has quite more efficienty.
I have here the sim, I go make that this way, when without the bassreflex port the phillips do not go as low for a tapped horn, so I use it also.
Oh yes, I did see the same reaction in the horn when do mismatch delay, and get the same as with my problem with the T-TQWT.
But have no answer of satisfaction, and wether do also not what I want,, so measure sub is for later care.
the best I get is this with the phillips, not bad for such old speaker.
regards
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kees52,
Understand that if two point sources ctc is 1/4 wavelength apart or less they radiate as one (often done with subs) also at same you get 3dB exstra, so if two drivers at 90dB sensitivity is summed under above rule they add not to 93dB but nice 96dB, and guess that's reason when you say deeper in horn gives better sensitivity because Akabak is clever.
At various Synergy threads Tom Danley hint to have woofers or mids and their injection ports add correct with tweeter and radiate as one driver the 1/4 wave rule had to be followed. So if you get 1/4 wave length or less for injection ports displacement relative to apex for tweeter and also the injection ports distances between no more than 1/4 wave length you should get horn to radiate pretty perfect power response inclusive XO area.
Could i guess when you design for 1/4 wave distance if you want high precision don't use the real XO point frq but one higher into XO transition area to be shure they add as one driver. Also looking the various threads seems having injection ports into corner gives best results some members had shared measurements for tweeter before and after injection ports are added and many show little change for tweeter performance before and after, but some also reported wrong position or form of port can ruin tweeter performance so take care.
Understand that if two point sources ctc is 1/4 wavelength apart or less they radiate as one (often done with subs) also at same you get 3dB exstra, so if two drivers at 90dB sensitivity is summed under above rule they add not to 93dB but nice 96dB, and guess that's reason when you say deeper in horn gives better sensitivity because Akabak is clever.
At various Synergy threads Tom Danley hint to have woofers or mids and their injection ports add correct with tweeter and radiate as one driver the 1/4 wave rule had to be followed. So if you get 1/4 wave length or less for injection ports displacement relative to apex for tweeter and also the injection ports distances between no more than 1/4 wave length you should get horn to radiate pretty perfect power response inclusive XO area.
Could i guess when you design for 1/4 wave distance if you want high precision don't use the real XO point frq but one higher into XO transition area to be shure they add as one driver. Also looking the various threads seems having injection ports into corner gives best results some members had shared measurements for tweeter before and after injection ports are added and many show little change for tweeter performance before and after, but some also reported wrong position or form of port can ruin tweeter performance so take care.
Hi,
Digged a little and I found this Scan-Speak
Both independant measurements of ScanPeaks 10F in 4 & 8 ohms ! clickable pdf in the middle of the page
Looking at the Qts, flater wider curve (and less 30° peak at 20K Hz), lower Vas (not too much less) and minimal impedance high enough (3.8 ohms) , it seems the 10F/44 could be a correct alternative instead the 10F/84 ?
And a all in 4 ohms with the series // woofs !
Even if active : easier for phase correction ?
Or just a detail ? (= don't matter, just purchase the first 10F we find off shelf : 8 or 4 ohms...)
Digged a little and I found this Scan-Speak
Both independant measurements of ScanPeaks 10F in 4 & 8 ohms ! clickable pdf in the middle of the page
Looking at the Qts, flater wider curve (and less 30° peak at 20K Hz), lower Vas (not too much less) and minimal impedance high enough (3.8 ohms) , it seems the 10F/44 could be a correct alternative instead the 10F/84 ?
And a all in 4 ohms with the series // woofs !
Even if active : easier for phase correction ?
Or just a detail ? (= don't matter, just purchase the first 10F we find off shelf : 8 or 4 ohms...)
I think either 10F can work well but the 8424 has a more powerful motor which is better in a horn. I personally like 8ohm drivers if I have a normal (non car audio amp). The lower impedance drivers tend to have higher distortion. Although that is a generalization and I have personally compared the 4 vs 8 for the 10F.
I do now this that it do sum in crossover points, I thing Mr Siegfried Linkwitz has made a filter special for this to get no summing, but needs precision. I do follow akabak and put the port as it is simmed there, have to start somewhere, I did see original trynergy has a kind of oval port, I presume because of space in the horn needs to do this that way.
I did ask about a woofer in a T-TQWT who do very strange, people on hornresp threat says it is the room, but I need to test it outside, as you see the room is not the cause but maybe the port on the back of the woofer who is 1.80 meter long.
second picture is with mouth on the floor, the first is mouth 1.80 meter above floor for information.
regards
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Yep, numbers are so close than I can't see too much difference ! Maybe the H3 is lessier near the XO with the 4 ohms seing at those measurements, but I can't see how dB less in relation to H1 ??? (I prefer Zaph's graphics!)
Maybe a real 86 dB for the 4 ohms instead the 83 dB of the 8 ohms is significant. However, I don't know what could become the 3.8 ohms in the 9 liters sealed cabinet !
And they need so little volts and current in your horn than we may be attracted by a little tube one day to drive it... here the 8 ohms is the choice ! And keep the class D for the woofs and subwoof !
Btw, it was just to have one more source of measurement as you were some with Kees51 to as below or equal to 0.4 Qts ! The ScanSpeak datasheets are a little optimists...
So details for the moment : have before to battle against the foam with a knife first and drop the katana... too big !
cheers
I measured the 10F/8424 8ohm at 87.5dB at 2.83v. It's pretty efficient - the Qts is optimistic indeed. I think I got 0.46 or so.
This is also a very nice one, qts just 0.34
Datasheet - DC160-8 - Europe audio
XRK971 do you have the script where you use 4 drivers for the bas? the dc160-8 do very wel.
regards
Datasheet - DC160-8 - Europe audio
XRK971 do you have the script where you use 4 drivers for the bas? the dc160-8 do very wel.
regards
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Thanks Kees51 for the tip,
yes, good cheap price : tested by Zaph and easylier sourcable in Europe.
One have to be carefull with some Internet shop : products are not often in stock and they use KABAN technic and buy it from the supplier after you clicked to the "Enter" button !. Europe Audio is known to be slow 😉
As well is the Fountek 168 metal cone : a good candidate tested by Zaph as well and the break ups of metal cones should not be an issue with the band pass behavior of the synergy design. Vas are close iirc : around 15 liters and should feet to X woof sides cabinets !
I 'm looking for the cheaper but already shipped mid-woof near to me to reduce my carbon trace ! I find here we are all great polluting people not thinking to the most modest ones ! There is something stupid to source from the other side of the world if the product or a near one enough is already near home !
I found both the Dayton & Founteq at more one than shop here and will buy to the less expensive and the nearest !
Foam found here as well 🙂
PS: question just for my culture please : I saw there is a difference in a biradial horn between the plane walls and the curved ones. Tratricx has the same expansion everywhere or here is there a little largiest wider & smoother horizontal transition due to the smooth horizontal wall transition ? I saw also elswhere than the horisontals plane walls seemed to extend the wave in a larger frequency range ? Are the 2 curved and 2 straight walls swapable in a Tractricx design like this one ? same soundstage patern if I flip this horn from 90° ?
yes, good cheap price : tested by Zaph and easylier sourcable in Europe.
One have to be carefull with some Internet shop : products are not often in stock and they use KABAN technic and buy it from the supplier after you clicked to the "Enter" button !. Europe Audio is known to be slow 😉
As well is the Fountek 168 metal cone : a good candidate tested by Zaph as well and the break ups of metal cones should not be an issue with the band pass behavior of the synergy design. Vas are close iirc : around 15 liters and should feet to X woof sides cabinets !
I 'm looking for the cheaper but already shipped mid-woof near to me to reduce my carbon trace ! I find here we are all great polluting people not thinking to the most modest ones ! There is something stupid to source from the other side of the world if the product or a near one enough is already near home !
I found both the Dayton & Founteq at more one than shop here and will buy to the less expensive and the nearest !
Foam found here as well 🙂
PS: question just for my culture please : I saw there is a difference in a biradial horn between the plane walls and the curved ones. Tratricx has the same expansion everywhere or here is there a little largiest wider & smoother horizontal transition due to the smooth horizontal wall transition ? I saw also elswhere than the horisontals plane walls seemed to extend the wave in a larger frequency range ? Are the 2 curved and 2 straight walls swapable in a Tractricx design like this one ? same soundstage patern if I flip this horn from 90° ?
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The Dayton mid woofers are good values. I have found Dayton Classic series to be well built and measure close to advertised specs. I did not know they are readily available in Europe or would have recommended them earlier. I am using the DC130A-8 right now in a 2-way TL and can get great sound out of it - monitor quality.
Regarding curved vs flat walls in tractrix: the coverage angle will be more uniform along the flat wall direction and some people indeed use the flats left and right and curve top and bottom. It has an abrupt edge so may have some more diffraction at the extreme angles. If you go with a custom new flat wall angle you will have to redo the flat sheet cut plans I made. Not a trivial task unless you are handy with 3d sheet metal CAD with folding and unfolding.
Regarding curved vs flat walls in tractrix: the coverage angle will be more uniform along the flat wall direction and some people indeed use the flats left and right and curve top and bottom. It has an abrupt edge so may have some more diffraction at the extreme angles. If you go with a custom new flat wall angle you will have to redo the flat sheet cut plans I made. Not a trivial task unless you are handy with 3d sheet metal CAD with folding and unfolding.
Yes perfect choices for americans with big shops like PE which had them already.
Some shops have stocks here, many Internet shops have not if they have not a brick&mortar shop as well, mainly due to the littlier markett and as well because 500 millions of europeans don't speak english from children schools due to our stupids politicians ! You see with me the result of a guy who learned english at schools only and I have university diploms ! Teriffic, isn't it ?
Here in France for non pro sound drivers choice became rare due to the little markett! Of course here we have excellent devices but due to the government rate of taxes to pay both the social protection and incomes of 2/5 of total french employees whom are State/collectivities aera employees, so devices are expensives. It is also force you to me more obsesiv with hifi stuffs than compulsive (thinking twice to buy less I mean). Here an example PHL Audio 1330 (8?) - B17 : very good stuffs made in France, better than Dayton by far but three time more expensive!
Damn X, you have a very good skill at cutting : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy-24.html#post4060641 ; it's quite impressive, I'm overawed by the clean edges of the sheets after cutting !
PS : thanks X for the horn walls explanation. No I don't want to redisign, it's just for my culture to understand more (joy for brain); I believed due to the less distance between floor and ceilling it was the reason for curved walls to be used for less wider vertical expansion instead the flat seen usually for horizontal dispersion (TAD, etc...) But biradiall are not Tratricx btw !)
Some shops have stocks here, many Internet shops have not if they have not a brick&mortar shop as well, mainly due to the littlier markett and as well because 500 millions of europeans don't speak english from children schools due to our stupids politicians ! You see with me the result of a guy who learned english at schools only and I have university diploms ! Teriffic, isn't it ?
Here in France for non pro sound drivers choice became rare due to the little markett! Of course here we have excellent devices but due to the government rate of taxes to pay both the social protection and incomes of 2/5 of total french employees whom are State/collectivities aera employees, so devices are expensives. It is also force you to me more obsesiv with hifi stuffs than compulsive (thinking twice to buy less I mean). Here an example PHL Audio 1330 (8?) - B17 : very good stuffs made in France, better than Dayton by far but three time more expensive!
Damn X, you have a very good skill at cutting : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy-24.html#post4060641 ; it's quite impressive, I'm overawed by the clean edges of the sheets after cutting !
PS : thanks X for the horn walls explanation. No I don't want to redisign, it's just for my culture to understand more (joy for brain); I believed due to the less distance between floor and ceilling it was the reason for curved walls to be used for less wider vertical expansion instead the flat seen usually for horizontal dispersion (TAD, etc...) But biradiall are not Tratricx btw !)
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I have found what happening with the sub.
It cancels the sound making that flip, this also do the trynergy when I do not put bass and HF in a bad crossover point, getting the same error a flip.
But what can do cause this and why the flip is not present when measuring close to the mouth, looks like a reflection in room however it do it also outside.
Maybe a leak in this large box. picture two has a nice measurement when in mouth, see just a little piece of that flip left..
PS a inverted tapped horn for in home do well!! and is much smaller. So I go stop this T-TQWT trouble and build later the sub,
XR1971 do you have the script with the extra bass units? I did try put some extra but not succesfull, to newbe for akabak.
regards
It cancels the sound making that flip, this also do the trynergy when I do not put bass and HF in a bad crossover point, getting the same error a flip.
But what can do cause this and why the flip is not present when measuring close to the mouth, looks like a reflection in room however it do it also outside.
Maybe a leak in this large box. picture two has a nice measurement when in mouth, see just a little piece of that flip left..
PS a inverted tapped horn for in home do well!! and is much smaller. So I go stop this T-TQWT trouble and build later the sub,
XR1971 do you have the script with the extra bass units? I did try put some extra but not succesfull, to newbe for akabak.
regards
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xrk971,
Post #798 showed the only distortion tests (after the second layer of material was added) that I found in the thread (I think I read through it all).
Wondering what SPL can be achieved before the distortion rises above 10% in the 10F?
Have you done distortion tests at any higher levels or full rated power for the 10F?
Art
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