Re: would this one go for it ??
Greets!
No, at least not with the standard n = 6.34 since the vents will be much too long even in ~525 L net/23 Hz Fb, so with a smaller cab the vents will be even longer. Now if you can accept such a large cab and smaller than optimum, but still good performing Onken style vents to get the 'look', then this can be done. With driver and vents it will be ~570 L. Really, this driver is designed for a sealed cab.
GM
Greets!
No, at least not with the standard n = 6.34 since the vents will be much too long even in ~525 L net/23 Hz Fb, so with a smaller cab the vents will be even longer. Now if you can accept such a large cab and smaller than optimum, but still good performing Onken style vents to get the 'look', then this can be done. With driver and vents it will be ~570 L. Really, this driver is designed for a sealed cab.
GM
Just a quick update, it's been about a year since I last posted and have lived a long time and put a lot of hours on my Onkens since. I am not disappointed in the result, the trouble was well worth it.
I made an error in the cross-over design - should have been -6dB at the x-over points, not the -3dB I originally designed as they are 2nd order butterworth. Response is now much flatter in the x-over region, and should fall in the < +/-3dB range from 100Hz - 12kHz based on very sloppy preliminary measurements. Definitely sounds better.
I did not shorten the ports because I found that they affected the bass tuning in an interesting way - actually giving me a little additional bass extension. I reduced the dcr in the woofer x-over which noticeably reduced the low mid bass peak I heard before - its gone now and the overall bass is even tighter and quicker than before.
Eventually I will do new near field and room response measurements (these things aren't leaving my basement listening room - they're heavy. For now my ears tell me what I need to know, the measurements should confirm.. 😀 ) Will post results here.
The work involved was well worth it for the results achieved. For me it is a dream come true. A bigger room would be nice, but they really work well in the space I have - they're not very fussy at all compared to say Maggies. (I think the horn directivity above 800Hz helps a lot here.) They have been extraordinarily well received by audiophile and non-audiphile friends alike. Everyone is pretty much overcome by their size.. I always get the inevitable question about why.. 😀
I made an error in the cross-over design - should have been -6dB at the x-over points, not the -3dB I originally designed as they are 2nd order butterworth. Response is now much flatter in the x-over region, and should fall in the < +/-3dB range from 100Hz - 12kHz based on very sloppy preliminary measurements. Definitely sounds better.
I did not shorten the ports because I found that they affected the bass tuning in an interesting way - actually giving me a little additional bass extension. I reduced the dcr in the woofer x-over which noticeably reduced the low mid bass peak I heard before - its gone now and the overall bass is even tighter and quicker than before.
Eventually I will do new near field and room response measurements (these things aren't leaving my basement listening room - they're heavy. For now my ears tell me what I need to know, the measurements should confirm.. 😀 ) Will post results here.
The work involved was well worth it for the results achieved. For me it is a dream come true. A bigger room would be nice, but they really work well in the space I have - they're not very fussy at all compared to say Maggies. (I think the horn directivity above 800Hz helps a lot here.) They have been extraordinarily well received by audiophile and non-audiphile friends alike. Everyone is pretty much overcome by their size.. I always get the inevitable question about why.. 😀
Yet another update. 😀
I never did complete some of the measurements and tweaking I talked about earlier in this thread mainly because I spend so much time just enjoying them. Most of the issues I would say I have at this point probably revolve around my choice of midhorn, I sometimes find myself longing for an Altec multi-cellar horn or a clone of one of the wood tad multi-cellulars.
The new x-o design is definitely better, and the speakers are extremely detailed, image well, and sound fast even in the low end. I do now and again hear what I think hints at some midrange horn colorations, which are not generally serious. I have not pinned down exactly what is going on. It could be that I should finally try some of Bear's suggestions.
I should definitely remeasure what is coming out of the ports and perhaps add a little more damping in the boxes - in truth I have heard nothing that inclines me to make that effort, but I could be surprised by a significant improvement (or not) if I do this.
One of the important things I neglected was the center to center distance between the woofer and mid horn. I now think they should be much closer, and were I to do that again I would probably install them in the box with the woofer or chose a horn I can cross over to at <800Hz. More important and very audible is the fact that the dispersion pattern of the horn/diffuser is quite narrow in the vertical plane and I can definitely hear large shifts in the midrange spectral balance depending on my sitting position (head height) and distance from the speaker system. This was unforeseen, but is a relatively minor nuisance that might not have occurred at all with the mid horns mounted lower down. The diffuser undoubtedly plays a big role.
Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative diffuser design that I could build? Has anyone attempted to use the 4333 without a diffuser and if so how did they overcome the beaminess that seems to result?
I have mostly been focusing on improving my sources and this speaker system lets me hear very clearly whether I am making progress in that direction.
Overall I remain convinced that these were the right choice for me, but unfortunately they are still the only Onkens I have ever heard.
Something about the large size and relatively complex box has kept most of my diy friends from emulating me, although at meets there is usually more than a little envy present.
I'm so smitten I might do a little pair of Fonkens for the living room at some point.. 😀
I never did complete some of the measurements and tweaking I talked about earlier in this thread mainly because I spend so much time just enjoying them. Most of the issues I would say I have at this point probably revolve around my choice of midhorn, I sometimes find myself longing for an Altec multi-cellar horn or a clone of one of the wood tad multi-cellulars.
The new x-o design is definitely better, and the speakers are extremely detailed, image well, and sound fast even in the low end. I do now and again hear what I think hints at some midrange horn colorations, which are not generally serious. I have not pinned down exactly what is going on. It could be that I should finally try some of Bear's suggestions.
I should definitely remeasure what is coming out of the ports and perhaps add a little more damping in the boxes - in truth I have heard nothing that inclines me to make that effort, but I could be surprised by a significant improvement (or not) if I do this.
One of the important things I neglected was the center to center distance between the woofer and mid horn. I now think they should be much closer, and were I to do that again I would probably install them in the box with the woofer or chose a horn I can cross over to at <800Hz. More important and very audible is the fact that the dispersion pattern of the horn/diffuser is quite narrow in the vertical plane and I can definitely hear large shifts in the midrange spectral balance depending on my sitting position (head height) and distance from the speaker system. This was unforeseen, but is a relatively minor nuisance that might not have occurred at all with the mid horns mounted lower down. The diffuser undoubtedly plays a big role.
Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative diffuser design that I could build? Has anyone attempted to use the 4333 without a diffuser and if so how did they overcome the beaminess that seems to result?
I have mostly been focusing on improving my sources and this speaker system lets me hear very clearly whether I am making progress in that direction.
Overall I remain convinced that these were the right choice for me, but unfortunately they are still the only Onkens I have ever heard.
Something about the large size and relatively complex box has kept most of my diy friends from emulating me, although at meets there is usually more than a little envy present.
I'm so smitten I might do a little pair of Fonkens for the living room at some point.. 😀
Hi All,
I have altec biflex in open baffle and need some more bas... also I have altec 416a 16OHM and think on onken enclosure which one I can put on the corners. Max width must by 62cm (24.4 inch). Anybody have some plans?
sorry for my english...
Regards
C
I have altec biflex in open baffle and need some more bas... also I have altec 416a 16OHM and think on onken enclosure which one I can put on the corners. Max width must by 62cm (24.4 inch). Anybody have some plans?
sorry for my english...
Regards
C
kevinkr said:
Right, for a given vent cross sectional area (CSA), increasing its length lowers box tuning (Fb).
Yep, the Q of the slope decreases, making for a 'faster' response due to the harmonics being unbalanced WRT the fundamentals.
Yeah, high directivity eliminates the early reflections that comb filters with the direct radiation, 'smearing' the mids/HF.
GM
caninus80 said:
The 416A ought to work quite well in an Onken enclosure, but your 62cm maximum width is a bit too narrow for use with the 416A. Using comparably sized Iconic woofers I'm at ~ 29" (73cm) and this is as narrow as I would go.. (Port widths and minimum reasonable baffle widths need to be taken into consideration.)
If the vents are long, then their self induced harmonics can be loud enough to comb filter with the driver's output, so damping them directly is usually preferred to increasing box damping.
Somewhere I have a plate diffusor design routine doc, but @#$% if I can find it for now.
Yeah, if it can't be coincident, then ideally the XO point/slope needs to be chosen based on the c-t-c spacing, but the Onken doen't lend itself to horn-in-box layouts unless quite wide, although this variant is quite attractive:
GM
Somewhere I have a plate diffusor design routine doc, but @#$% if I can find it for now.
Yeah, if it can't be coincident, then ideally the XO point/slope needs to be chosen based on the c-t-c spacing, but the Onken doen't lend itself to horn-in-box layouts unless quite wide, although this variant is quite attractive:
GM
Attachments
caninus80 said:
When you say 'corners' do you mean a triangular shaped cab to fit into the corner? How deep can it be? Also, what is maximum acceptable height to the center of the biflex? Is tilting it down an option if too high up?
Regardless, no plans other that the some original Jensen Ultraflex and Onken 360.
GM
GM said:
Hi GM,
That looks pretty nice. Mine are still unfinished although I sometimes contemplate staining them..
I would be curious about any diffuser options you dig up..
Just looking for any little improvements I can make as icing on the cake. I'm less sure now that the midrange coloration I was hearing was from the horn as it might have been one of my digital sources that was the culprit, it seems much less pronounced all of a sudden.
The vertical directionality of the current diffuser is an issue though..
I'm happier with these than with any of the store bought speakers I owned previously, personal biases not withstanding.
😀
Greets!
Understood, I've always been pretty ambivalent about how my speakers looked beyond using the same paint on the cabs as on the walls.
Well drat! I've combed the computer for my diffusor plate design notes, but I've either somehow either misplaced or deleted them, not that I consider it much of a loss since I don't like them.
I don't recall the details of your build, but if you ever decide to get serious, do yourself a favor and DIY a large WG to get rid of any horn coloration and push the XO point low enough to minimize comb filtering through the XO BW.
GM
Understood, I've always been pretty ambivalent about how my speakers looked beyond using the same paint on the cabs as on the walls.
Well drat! I've combed the computer for my diffusor plate design notes, but I've either somehow either misplaced or deleted them, not that I consider it much of a loss since I don't like them.
I don't recall the details of your build, but if you ever decide to get serious, do yourself a favor and DIY a large WG to get rid of any horn coloration and push the XO point low enough to minimize comb filtering through the XO BW.
GM
Onken with 4x Visaton B200 full range?
I plan to make enclosures to host 4x Visaton B200 (per channel).
I got Onken_calc.xls but i wonder how to calculate measures for four identical drivers in same box? Wich T/S parameters do I have to multiply (or quadriple, you know what I mean) and wich to divide? In calculations for just one driver Vb came out 420 liters, now if it's going to be 4x420 liters... I just make doors on them and I have a new apartment!
I know B200 is intended for use in sealed boxes, but Onken boxes seam to be great thing,
So, how do I calculate Onken box with multiple identical drivers?
Regards, Oliver
I plan to make enclosures to host 4x Visaton B200 (per channel).
I got Onken_calc.xls but i wonder how to calculate measures for four identical drivers in same box? Wich T/S parameters do I have to multiply (or quadriple, you know what I mean) and wich to divide? In calculations for just one driver Vb came out 420 liters, now if it's going to be 4x420 liters... I just make doors on them and I have a new apartment!
I know B200 is intended for use in sealed boxes, but Onken boxes seam to be great thing,
So, how do I calculate Onken box with multiple identical drivers?
Regards, Oliver
Vas sums, so it would be 4x 420 L = 1680 L! That's a unrealistically big box even by my standards if not built-in. Re, Le will either sum or halve depending on whether you wire them in parallel or series.
Regardless, this driver's Qts is much too high for a typical vented alignment, which includes an Onken's, so either OB, IB, or maybe aperiodic, or probably best, a Linkwitz transform (LRT) sealed alignment are your only viable choices.
GM
Regardless, this driver's Qts is much too high for a typical vented alignment, which includes an Onken's, so either OB, IB, or maybe aperiodic, or probably best, a Linkwitz transform (LRT) sealed alignment are your only viable choices.
GM
4x B200
Thanks, I will think about 1600 liter boxes...
Sealed solution is 175 l ... hm, tough choice 🙂
Regards, Oliver
Thanks, I will think about 1600 liter boxes...
Sealed solution is 175 l ... hm, tough choice 🙂
Regards, Oliver
4 Years On: Update
The Onkens have been in service now for nearly 4 yrs and I can't imagine living with anything else frankly. The end result ultimately far exceeded my expectations particularly with the 2nd generation X-O design mentioned in another thread.
I never did stain them and like their appearance as is..
I also have not opened the boxes since their completion and despite the measurable presence of higher frequency components at the ports this has not proved to be audible at all - although why that would be the case is not clear.
Despite designing for an FS of 38Hz at -3dB, the box tuning actually appears to be slightly lower perhaps due to a slight error in the port length, and other things. I have usable output down into the low 30s and it is pretty obvious. Things changed with the X-O modifications which addressed an excessive rg issue and perhaps slightly reduced the Q of the driver. Break in seems to have played a role here as well.
The real reason I have posted is that the Onkens (theoretically anyway) are about to get an upgrade to the mid and high horns. I now have JBL 2440 compression drivers and will be evaluating them for use with some sort of conical horn like the AH! 700 or 350Hz Edgar Horns.. I'm also thinking about 300 -350Hz Iwatas, and will have several different types of conventional sectoral and possibly smith horns to try. JBL 2405 or Fostex 825/900/925 in addition to the current 2402 are options for the highs. The bass sections will not be changing. All of this is reversible in the event that I do not achieve any real improvement.
The Onkens have been in service now for nearly 4 yrs and I can't imagine living with anything else frankly. The end result ultimately far exceeded my expectations particularly with the 2nd generation X-O design mentioned in another thread.
I never did stain them and like their appearance as is..
I also have not opened the boxes since their completion and despite the measurable presence of higher frequency components at the ports this has not proved to be audible at all - although why that would be the case is not clear.
Despite designing for an FS of 38Hz at -3dB, the box tuning actually appears to be slightly lower perhaps due to a slight error in the port length, and other things. I have usable output down into the low 30s and it is pretty obvious. Things changed with the X-O modifications which addressed an excessive rg issue and perhaps slightly reduced the Q of the driver. Break in seems to have played a role here as well.
The real reason I have posted is that the Onkens (theoretically anyway) are about to get an upgrade to the mid and high horns. I now have JBL 2440 compression drivers and will be evaluating them for use with some sort of conical horn like the AH! 700 or 350Hz Edgar Horns.. I'm also thinking about 300 -350Hz Iwatas, and will have several different types of conventional sectoral and possibly smith horns to try. JBL 2405 or Fostex 825/900/925 in addition to the current 2402 are options for the highs. The bass sections will not be changing. All of this is reversible in the event that I do not achieve any real improvement.
Onken design from Orca in the 90s by Joe Dappolito and Kimon Bellas using Focal Audiom 15 inch drive units.
[/IMG]
Onken design from Orca in the 90s by Joe Dappolito and Kimon Bellas using Focal Audiom 15 inch drive units.
Interesting but it doesn't look like the port area is anywhere near 85% of sd - the minimum port area to be considered an Onken. I'd say looking at it that port area is much less than 50% of sd and it is therefore really a BR with a large vent area.. Probably sounds quite good regardless..
I thought I would experiment a little tonight so I mounted my "new" (to me) JBL 2440 drivers (alnico) on a set of 2" throat fiberglass horns with a 16.5" x 5.5" mouth - they're exponential horns. (I believe they are JBL 800Hz horns, but have yet to identify the model.) This was intended as an experiment, but I ended up replacing the 2420/2312/2308 (JBL 4333 midrange horn) as this combination was immediately and obviously better. My plan is to a set of conical horns built in the far east to use with these drivers. I'll put up a picture of this set up when I have a moment, it's butt ugly but sounds great.
These are my first large format drivers, and they are here to stay.. 😀
Obviously I am a fan of JBL drivers, wish I had woken up about 20yrs sooner when these were to be had for next to no money due to good engineering no longer being in fashion in home audio.. Now the prices are just insane....
These are my first large format drivers, and they are here to stay.. 😀
Obviously I am a fan of JBL drivers, wish I had woken up about 20yrs sooner when these were to be had for next to no money due to good engineering no longer being in fashion in home audio.. Now the prices are just insane....
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Hey everyone,
I have been trying to find a version of the Onken spreadsheets, but the links seem to be broken. I am looking to build a modest two way for my two channel setup using this 12 inch woofer and a waveguide (Econowave Standard):
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-320s.pdf
*Power handling: 80 watts RMS/115 watts max
*Le: 2.70 mH
* Impedance: 8 ohms
* Re: 6.4 ohms
* Fs: 26 Hz
* SPL: 90.5 dB 1W/1m
* Vas: 4.70 cu. ft.
* Qms: 3.98
* Qes: .48
* Qts: .43
* Xmax: 4.3mm
The PDF has more specific parameters. The two way has baffle step compensation originally designed for a cabinet with dimensions of 17 inches wide by 24 inches tall.
With a traditional vented enclosure, the driver sims well in about 3 cubic feet net tuned to 25 hz, yielding an F3 around 31hz and an F10 of 20hz, which will work well with room gain. The driver is excursion limited to 30 watts, which will be more than adequate for me.
Will this driver work well in an onken enclosure with similar extension? It seems to have the desired parameters for Onken (Low to mid Q, low FS, High VAS). Dimensions aren't a large concern for me, so long as at least the width is maintained near 17 inches to be close to the original BSC. It can be a floor standing enclosure (likely) or one requiring stands. Thanks!
I have been trying to find a version of the Onken spreadsheets, but the links seem to be broken. I am looking to build a modest two way for my two channel setup using this 12 inch woofer and a waveguide (Econowave Standard):
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-320s.pdf
*Power handling: 80 watts RMS/115 watts max
*Le: 2.70 mH
* Impedance: 8 ohms
* Re: 6.4 ohms
* Fs: 26 Hz
* SPL: 90.5 dB 1W/1m
* Vas: 4.70 cu. ft.
* Qms: 3.98
* Qes: .48
* Qts: .43
* Xmax: 4.3mm
The PDF has more specific parameters. The two way has baffle step compensation originally designed for a cabinet with dimensions of 17 inches wide by 24 inches tall.
With a traditional vented enclosure, the driver sims well in about 3 cubic feet net tuned to 25 hz, yielding an F3 around 31hz and an F10 of 20hz, which will work well with room gain. The driver is excursion limited to 30 watts, which will be more than adequate for me.
Will this driver work well in an onken enclosure with similar extension? It seems to have the desired parameters for Onken (Low to mid Q, low FS, High VAS). Dimensions aren't a large concern for me, so long as at least the width is maintained near 17 inches to be close to the original BSC. It can be a floor standing enclosure (likely) or one requiring stands. Thanks!
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