If it is fixed EQ you're looking for, I would do that with the miniDSP eq controls.
On the input tab, you can add general eq to the entire signal, on an input-by-input basis, while on the output tab, you can set eq on a driver-by-driver basis.
Connecting by optical should eliminate som emi noise from the pc, as well. Connecting the USB again will re-open a path for this noise again. Hovever a usb galvanic isolator may help. Note: don't buy these from audio shops. An isolator from a electronics stor will do the same job, and be much cheaper...
Johan-Kr
On the input tab, you can add general eq to the entire signal, on an input-by-input basis, while on the output tab, you can set eq on a driver-by-driver basis.
Connecting by optical should eliminate som emi noise from the pc, as well. Connecting the USB again will re-open a path for this noise again. Hovever a usb galvanic isolator may help. Note: don't buy these from audio shops. An isolator from a electronics stor will do the same job, and be much cheaper...
Johan-Kr
I agree that fixed EQ is better done by the minidsp but the tone control would be easier to use if it was part of the player software, no need for the realtime usb control of the minidsp then which also avoids the need to directly connect the computer to the minidsp all the time.
Hi Guys;
Thanks again for your guidance. Regarding the noise issue. When Even has time, I will persuade him to elaborate on the type of noise issue he is having.
Hi Fenalaar;
Thank you for your info regarding usb galvanic isolators. I was not aware of their existence and will keep this in mind if it becomes an issue. I have some experience with ground loop issues, in analogue systems, and have taken precautions in the form of (I believe the term is) ''star topology". All components have a 14 awg chassis grounding wire connected to a common central point. ( see attached photo, left side). I have even taken precaution to isolate all components from the rack by way of plastic shims behind rack ears, and plastic sleeves and washers on rack mounting screws. This was a bit of a trick with the 80 pound bass amplifier! (note nylon support feet at rear of lower amp) If the noise issue was hum, I would feel comfortable tackling this, as it would be 'an outside issue'---as Bill says.
Hi fluid;
You mentioned a 'zipper noise' which would not be an issue for me, if it was just during changes to filters. It may be a concern to drivers (and ears) at high levels, but I can't imagine such an advanced audio product being released with those flaws. I could be surprised...
From my analogue background, I know that no cable changes etc. are made without the power amps off or at least volume down, but I am amazed how well behaved the Creative sound card is, and it was very inexpensive. The usb input can be connected to the sound card, with amps up, without so much as a 'click'.
To the point;
Fluid, you suspect correctly that introducing another filter program on the laptop, is pushing me out of my 'comfort zone'. I have two arguments in my defense!:
1) Regardless of the quality of the additional program or process, would it not be better to extract the media from the laptop, as 'bit perfect' as possible, and keep the number of processes to a minimum?
2) (and I think I got you on this one!); If tone controls are done on the laptop as you say; 'tone control would be easier to use if it was part of the player software, no need for the realtime usb control of the minidsp'
Am I correct in thinking that this would not allow real time control of other inputs to the minidsp, (CD/DVD player, and an analogue input, in this case from a satellite TV receiver)?
Thanks again for your guidance. Regarding the noise issue. When Even has time, I will persuade him to elaborate on the type of noise issue he is having.
Hi Fenalaar;
Thank you for your info regarding usb galvanic isolators. I was not aware of their existence and will keep this in mind if it becomes an issue. I have some experience with ground loop issues, in analogue systems, and have taken precautions in the form of (I believe the term is) ''star topology". All components have a 14 awg chassis grounding wire connected to a common central point. ( see attached photo, left side). I have even taken precaution to isolate all components from the rack by way of plastic shims behind rack ears, and plastic sleeves and washers on rack mounting screws. This was a bit of a trick with the 80 pound bass amplifier! (note nylon support feet at rear of lower amp) If the noise issue was hum, I would feel comfortable tackling this, as it would be 'an outside issue'---as Bill says.
Hi fluid;
You mentioned a 'zipper noise' which would not be an issue for me, if it was just during changes to filters. It may be a concern to drivers (and ears) at high levels, but I can't imagine such an advanced audio product being released with those flaws. I could be surprised...
From my analogue background, I know that no cable changes etc. are made without the power amps off or at least volume down, but I am amazed how well behaved the Creative sound card is, and it was very inexpensive. The usb input can be connected to the sound card, with amps up, without so much as a 'click'.
To the point;
Fluid, you suspect correctly that introducing another filter program on the laptop, is pushing me out of my 'comfort zone'. I have two arguments in my defense!:
1) Regardless of the quality of the additional program or process, would it not be better to extract the media from the laptop, as 'bit perfect' as possible, and keep the number of processes to a minimum?
2) (and I think I got you on this one!); If tone controls are done on the laptop as you say; 'tone control would be easier to use if it was part of the player software, no need for the realtime usb control of the minidsp'
Am I correct in thinking that this would not allow real time control of other inputs to the minidsp, (CD/DVD player, and an analogue input, in this case from a satellite TV receiver)?
Attachments
The minidsp units are really not that advanced, they use fairly basic off the shelf components and put them together in a nice board at a very reasonable price. Many of the possible glitches come from how they are interfaced and used with computer equipment. If you have a good computer set up correctly it should all work fine, but it is very easy for something to be incorrectly set or configured in a computer based setup that minidsp has no control over.
Processing audio in real time is not that taxing for modern computers but a computer is not often set to be a realtime device many different processes are being multitasked, if one uses more resources at a given point others can suffer and this is sometimes where glitches happen. Worst case scenario is once the changes have been made everything will settle down again so if this is OK with you then don't worry about it.
My point is these sorts of things are very system dependant, it might happen to you or it might not and there is really no way of telling until you try it!
No as far as I am concerned "bit perfect" in the context of DSP is utter nonsense. If you use a digital volume control it is no longer bit perfect. If you use volume levelling inside a program it is no longer bit perfect. Windows used to do some pretty horrible things to audio if you weren't careful which is where this idea of being bit perfect came from. Improvements to audio drivers and player software means that most of those issues are now easily avoided.
Keeping the number of processes to a minimum is always a good idea but you want to adjust the bass and treble balance which completely flies in the face of any kind of bit perfect idea. Where that happens in the signal chain doesn't really matter as long as gain structure isn't compromised.
You are correct that a plugin on the computer cannot have any effect on other sources to the minidsp but you don't have to limit yourself to only one choice. You can use the plugin on the computer for that source and use the minidsp controls for others. The great thing about many computer based things is they are free or cheap or have trials so you can give it a go and see if you like it. You don't have to have the answer to everything before you begin. Try it and see what happens, if you don't like it don't use it.
I admit that I find your desire to change the tonal balance of every source the exact opposite of what I would do, but I am trying to think of how I would do it if I were you and my suggestions are meant to help you get the best and simplest system for your needs.
I have a setup where I can choose any song, album, artist etc. from my collection by remote control and control playback and volume etc remotely. I would not want to go back to switching sources and putting discs into drives. At least as far as music is concerned the computer and modern playback software really is a step in the right direction. The majority of movies and TV I watch also comes from the computer but that is a different story.
Hi Fluid and All;
Thanks again for your time. I realize I seem to be stalling but I have been stung before, jumping into something unknown to me. Not to knock Rane, but it did not completely dawn on me that the addition of the DEQ-60L's extra A to D and D to A conversions, was avoidable with a dsp.
I can't help feeling a little crass when I talk about bass and treble controls, in Hi Fi circles. I have worked in the cinema business in the analogue days, and big film releases in 70 mm, often required sound level and EQ adjusts. New films had their own 'pink noise and Dolby tone' test film that was looped to allow us to set up the system's front end.
My point is that the big budget film industry could not settle on standards for sound balance, and I am hearing wildly varying EQ's and levels on music and movies, these days in the 'consumer market'. Some of my program material would be un-listenable without some sort of bass and treble correction, IMHO, bit-perfect or not.
I am truly enjoying using my laptop as my media library, and even ripped my favourite CD's as .wav files. While I have the ear of the experts, am I losing something in this ripping process?
It has not been as straight forward, ripping my favourite concert DVD's. I have downloaded a couple of programs, The terms 'VOB' and 'video TS' seem to figure prominently. In the end, I concluded that the files took up so much space, that it seemed almost simpler to leave them on DVD, and get of the couch every once in a while to change discs. This necessitates the connection of the DVD player to the minidsp via RCA digital connection. BTW, the DVD player is 2004 vintage and the RCA jack is marked "PCM/Bit Stream". I hope this is compatible with the dsp.
Another issue comes to mind; Latency. (I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about, throwing around these terms!) When watching a movie, the video is sent directly to the TV via HDMI cable, from the computer or DVD player. If there is significant latency in the mini dsp, could this become a noticeable sync problem?
Is the latency in the minidsp dependent on how many filters or processes are active? I had proposed using my digital equalizer for the bass speakers only, after the crossover, but realized the delay would cause horrible problems if it only was affecting one band.
Thanks again, Fluid and everyone following.
PS; Probably not an appropriate question in this forum, but any suggestion regarding minidsp retailers in Canada? So far, I have only located one.
Regards, Peter
Thanks again for your time. I realize I seem to be stalling but I have been stung before, jumping into something unknown to me. Not to knock Rane, but it did not completely dawn on me that the addition of the DEQ-60L's extra A to D and D to A conversions, was avoidable with a dsp.
I can't help feeling a little crass when I talk about bass and treble controls, in Hi Fi circles. I have worked in the cinema business in the analogue days, and big film releases in 70 mm, often required sound level and EQ adjusts. New films had their own 'pink noise and Dolby tone' test film that was looped to allow us to set up the system's front end.
My point is that the big budget film industry could not settle on standards for sound balance, and I am hearing wildly varying EQ's and levels on music and movies, these days in the 'consumer market'. Some of my program material would be un-listenable without some sort of bass and treble correction, IMHO, bit-perfect or not.
I am truly enjoying using my laptop as my media library, and even ripped my favourite CD's as .wav files. While I have the ear of the experts, am I losing something in this ripping process?
It has not been as straight forward, ripping my favourite concert DVD's. I have downloaded a couple of programs, The terms 'VOB' and 'video TS' seem to figure prominently. In the end, I concluded that the files took up so much space, that it seemed almost simpler to leave them on DVD, and get of the couch every once in a while to change discs. This necessitates the connection of the DVD player to the minidsp via RCA digital connection. BTW, the DVD player is 2004 vintage and the RCA jack is marked "PCM/Bit Stream". I hope this is compatible with the dsp.
Another issue comes to mind; Latency. (I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about, throwing around these terms!) When watching a movie, the video is sent directly to the TV via HDMI cable, from the computer or DVD player. If there is significant latency in the mini dsp, could this become a noticeable sync problem?
Is the latency in the minidsp dependent on how many filters or processes are active? I had proposed using my digital equalizer for the bass speakers only, after the crossover, but realized the delay would cause horrible problems if it only was affecting one band.
Thanks again, Fluid and everyone following.
PS; Probably not an appropriate question in this forum, but any suggestion regarding minidsp retailers in Canada? So far, I have only located one.
Regards, Peter
Getting the end result you want is what is important, forget the idea of bit perfect, just make your signal chain as streamlined as you can to get the result you want.
As long as there are no errors in the rip then you have lost nothing. .wav files are fine if you have endless storage space but a lossless format such as flac or apple lossless are much better as far as i'm concerned. There is no loss of quality as the compression is done on the file not on the audio. The same principal as a zip file. The file is smaller but the data is the same when it is decompressed.
For the future if you have a wifi network it is a good idea to store the files on a NAS ( Network attached storage device) or a tower type computer and then access them over the network on the laptop or player. With the advent of programs like Kodi and Plex there are lots of devices which can connect to a TV and stereo and be used to stream music and movies in almost any format. Once you have tried it I doubt you will go back.
DVD's can be awkward to rip and take up a considerable amount of space for the video quality. Bluray is a much better format, as the compression algorithm used for the video can be compressed again to a much smaller size without a significant reduction in quality. A 6GB file compressed from a bluray source looks very good and is much smaller than the 40GB raw size. DTS audio is better than AC3 and many now use True audio or other lossless formats, definitely a good idea for concerts.
The RCA marked "PCM/Bit Stream" should be a coaxial digital output. You will need to use it in PCM mode for it to work with the minidsp, bit streaming is when the full surround sound signal is sent over the connection to an outboard AV processor which can decode the audio back to the individual channels, the minidsp can't do this and all you will get is white noise.
Very unlikely if you only use IIR processing as that has very little overhead and almost no latency. Large FIR filters will introduce considerable latency and without compensation for the delay will be useless for video.
Yes and no, stick to IIR for the time being and you will have no issues. Why use your other equalizer after the crossover? The propagation delay from a digital equalizer should be minimal so I don't understand why you think that would cause horrible problems either.
There are two types of delay, the kind that you use to set the time alignment between drivers and the kind that results from the processing of audio, if you avoid FIR filters then you won't have any sync problems. Digital delay is frequency independent but IIR EQ is not so you will likely need to adjust both according to measurements to get the time response you want (step, IR) but that should not impact audio and video sync.
Minidsp usually sell direct so there are not many dealers at all and only the one listed in Canada, consider yourself lucky that you can actually buy one from a dealer in your country!
Hi Fluid and All;
Thanks again for all your detailed replies. I have learned a lot from your responses, in particular. I am still reading a downloaded book "The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing". It is mostly beyond me, but I am getting something out of it. It actually explained in somewhat down to earth terms how and why 'dithering' improves accuracy.
Thanks for your explanation regarding PCM/ Bitstream. I just checked my DVD player and there is a menu for these options...another mystery unraveled. As usual, another question arises; under the PCM selection, it says, up to 48 kHz. I have a 'DVD audio' CD "Beatles Love" and I beleive it is audio, sampled at 96 kHz. Do I need a newer DVD player to get the most out of that audio DVD?
I just may have answered this; the DVD cover says a DVD-A player is required to access advanced resolution. BTW, I have not found any other DVD-A discs in this neck of the woods. Is this a (soon to be) obsolete format?
Regarding the Rane DEQ, I checked the manual and they claim a 'propagation delay' of 1.39 mS. I was under the impression it was much more. In any case, I would not be using this unit with the dsp.
Thanks again, Peter
PS; I'm sure I will 'light up' this thread when I finally order the minidsp 4x10!
Thanks again for all your detailed replies. I have learned a lot from your responses, in particular. I am still reading a downloaded book "The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing". It is mostly beyond me, but I am getting something out of it. It actually explained in somewhat down to earth terms how and why 'dithering' improves accuracy.
Thanks for your explanation regarding PCM/ Bitstream. I just checked my DVD player and there is a menu for these options...another mystery unraveled. As usual, another question arises; under the PCM selection, it says, up to 48 kHz. I have a 'DVD audio' CD "Beatles Love" and I beleive it is audio, sampled at 96 kHz. Do I need a newer DVD player to get the most out of that audio DVD?
I just may have answered this; the DVD cover says a DVD-A player is required to access advanced resolution. BTW, I have not found any other DVD-A discs in this neck of the woods. Is this a (soon to be) obsolete format?
Regarding the Rane DEQ, I checked the manual and they claim a 'propagation delay' of 1.39 mS. I was under the impression it was much more. In any case, I would not be using this unit with the dsp.
Thanks again, Peter
PS; I'm sure I will 'light up' this thread when I finally order the minidsp 4x10!
Whilst this has nothing to do with audio quality, the usability of the system to me plays a big part in how much use it gets and therefore the amount of enjoyment.
Swapping sources and devices is really something of the past when using digital sources and a good computer based media centre. A very cheap bluray drive attached to your computer will be able to read almost any disc you can purchase or already own. Ripping and storing them is a laborious process but it only needs to be done once. Once you have all your content as files you can use whichever player software fits your needs. I really enjoy being able to control everything from an ipad or tablet sat on the couch.
Most of the HD disc formats have died out to some extent particularly as there are now sites dedicated to HD music where they can be downloaded.
I don't personally think that high sample rates are worthwhile for the reason that they contain information above 20 KHz. There is very little there and there are very few who can actually perceive it in any case.
For me the real benefit of running a 96KHz sample rate is that it allows you to use a slow roll off filter and still get good 20KHz response. Brickwall filters are not as nice. The same benefit can be achieved by upsampling to 96KHz which the minidsp already does as the plugins run at a fixed sample rate.
Swapping sources and devices is really something of the past when using digital sources and a good computer based media centre. A very cheap bluray drive attached to your computer will be able to read almost any disc you can purchase or already own. Ripping and storing them is a laborious process but it only needs to be done once. Once you have all your content as files you can use whichever player software fits your needs. I really enjoy being able to control everything from an ipad or tablet sat on the couch.
Most of the HD disc formats have died out to some extent particularly as there are now sites dedicated to HD music where they can be downloaded.
I don't personally think that high sample rates are worthwhile for the reason that they contain information above 20 KHz. There is very little there and there are very few who can actually perceive it in any case.
For me the real benefit of running a 96KHz sample rate is that it allows you to use a slow roll off filter and still get good 20KHz response. Brickwall filters are not as nice. The same benefit can be achieved by upsampling to 96KHz which the minidsp already does as the plugins run at a fixed sample rate.
This is true if the source material is already at a higher rate than RBCD (say 88.2k or 96k). But for RBCD material the brickwall filter is already baked in - when upsampling, in order for no imaging artifacts (above 22kHz) to appear in the higher-rate output a brickwall digital filter is still mandatory.
Good point, particularly as most source material is redbook 16/44.1 and the minidsp 4x10 plugin is fixed at 96KHz.
Have you ever come across any good information or measurements on what this looks like in practice? I have only seen audiophile waffle or information with too many equations for me.
Thanks, I have seen that before but reading it again there is some useful information. Seems to suggest that the aliasing affects imaging on stereo mic based recordings and that it mainly affects the highest frequencies, so being able to hear the difference will depend on music being played and possibly the high frequency hearing of the listener.
The description of using Asynchronous Sample rate conversion to upsample as "Utterly repugnant" and his dislike of slow roll off filters is opposite to what I wrote above. Anecdotally I have always had a slight preference for the sound of a slow roll off filter when that is an option in a DAC, who knows maybe I have just convinced myself it is better!
The ASRC in the minidsp can be avoided by feeding it a 96KHz input and most of the software players can upsample on the fly and probably do a better job than the chip in the minidsp as they don't rely on an analogue clock to synchronise. This will only work for a computer based source though.
Also good information on why brute force room correction or impulse inversion doesn't often work very well.
Hi Folks;
Thanks again for all this valuable help. I have been an Audio enthusiast since the 70's and it is jaw dropping, how this technology has advanced! I will read but your above recommendation, is this from the pdf available on-line called "The Bits In-Between. An EE's Guide to. Survival Between Microphone and Voice Coil"?
At the moment, I would like to recommend "The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing" It is definitely beyond me, but thanks to this pdf, I have some idea about references to the various anti-aliasing filter issues, discussed above, by fluid, HammerSandwich and others.
BTW, I have placed an order for the minidsp 4x10 and Umik-1 microphone! The unit is on back order, but should be here in 2 or 3 weeks. I will soon be relying on this thread for some real world issues! In the mean time, here is a 'before shot' of my 'old school' system. Hard to imagine the top half of the rack being replaced by one 1-3/4" unit.
Thanks again, Peter
Thanks again for all this valuable help. I have been an Audio enthusiast since the 70's and it is jaw dropping, how this technology has advanced! I will read but your above recommendation, is this from the pdf available on-line called "The Bits In-Between. An EE's Guide to. Survival Between Microphone and Voice Coil"?
At the moment, I would like to recommend "The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing" It is definitely beyond me, but thanks to this pdf, I have some idea about references to the various anti-aliasing filter issues, discussed above, by fluid, HammerSandwich and others.
BTW, I have placed an order for the minidsp 4x10 and Umik-1 microphone! The unit is on back order, but should be here in 2 or 3 weeks. I will soon be relying on this thread for some real world issues! In the mean time, here is a 'before shot' of my 'old school' system. Hard to imagine the top half of the rack being replaced by one 1-3/4" unit.
Thanks again, Peter
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Hi Folks;
My minidsp 4x10 should be here this week, I have already purchased XLR plugs, balanced mic cord, and an optical (fibre) cable. As luck would have it, my favourite DVD player is going 'fins up'! I was hoping to eventually buy a dedicated laptop for the sound system--budget is starting to be an issue.
If I have no luck trouble shooting the DVD player, would a replacement have to be 'top of the line', considering video is extracted via HDMI and audio via digital optical?
Thought I would through out one more frivolous question, before the cheese gets binding..
thanks, Peter in Canada
My minidsp 4x10 should be here this week, I have already purchased XLR plugs, balanced mic cord, and an optical (fibre) cable. As luck would have it, my favourite DVD player is going 'fins up'! I was hoping to eventually buy a dedicated laptop for the sound system--budget is starting to be an issue.
If I have no luck trouble shooting the DVD player, would a replacement have to be 'top of the line', considering video is extracted via HDMI and audio via digital optical?
Thought I would through out one more frivolous question, before the cheese gets binding..
thanks, Peter in Canada
If you're extracting audio by optical out, most players should be good. Just be sure it can downsample to PCM, or the MiniDSP won't be able to mage use of the signal.
Johan-Kr
Johan-Kr
BTW not sure whether it was mentioned here.
Najda has an option Balanced output board. You can use them to replace the existing SE outputs. The board is for stereo set so you can get the boards up to your needs.
Oleg
Najda has an option Balanced output board. You can use them to replace the existing SE outputs. The board is for stereo set so you can get the boards up to your needs.
Oleg
The optional board is stereo balanced input only so no help here, particularly as Pete has ordered the minidsp already.
I am extremely pleased with this unit so far! I am making all new cables for this unit, so I can switch back and forth from the old analogue stuff, until I get the dsp fully set up. In the mean time, the rack is a mess of spaghetti.
I could resist having a peek inside. I guess it's like sausages, maybe some things you shouldn't see being made. Can't help thinking there's a good margin in the dsp business. I guess I have to remember that maybe they don't have the same economies of scale of many other audio components.
BTW; Thanks fluid, I had to switch the DVD player to 'Bitstream'. Help from everyone has made what could be a frustrating project, to an enjoyable learning experience!
I could resist having a peek inside. I guess it's like sausages, maybe some things you shouldn't see being made. Can't help thinking there's a good margin in the dsp business. I guess I have to remember that maybe they don't have the same economies of scale of many other audio components.
BTW; Thanks fluid, I had to switch the DVD player to 'Bitstream'. Help from everyone has made what could be a frustrating project, to an enjoyable learning experience!
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This morning, I watched a music video, laptop, as source, connected via ext. sound card optical out to dsp. and created tone controls that I adjusted in real time from the couch!
You said it could be done, I just can't stop smiling because it actually works!
I will likely have some vital questions once I start tweaking things, in the mean time, another dumb question; No power switch? I guess there is no issue with leaving the dsp on, 24/7?
You said it could be done, I just can't stop smiling because it actually works!
I will likely have some vital questions once I start tweaking things, in the mean time, another dumb question; No power switch? I guess there is no issue with leaving the dsp on, 24/7?
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