That simple folks !!!!
My subwoofer´s speakers were chosen with a low Mms to make them "faster", is that wrong?, I'm just asking, because I've had mixed opinions in favor and others that say it doesn't mean anything. A light cone, wide SD and good BL, don't they make a difference? ( assuming equal FS and Xmax )
No, not "wrong" at all.
Just doesn't matter much to the sound of a subs' transient response.
Which is simply too dominated by full-range, higher frequency content.
Dial that full-range integration together, and all subs get "faster"
The lower mass will get invested into increasing sensitivity instead, putting it back to square one so to speak.
Real bass is never fast . Small speakers are usually imaging, soundstaging champs and its often a compromise people are willing to make and sacrifice bass and SPL to get it. In this particular case its either the speakers , the room/placement or source amplification chain . Since speakers seem quite decent and competent I would start with garbage quality of the rest of components ( it is what it is )
Borrow from a friendly audiophile quality amp / CD player ( and audiophile are rather friendly and willing to help ) and move on from there .
Borrow from a friendly audiophile quality amp / CD player ( and audiophile are rather friendly and willing to help ) and move on from there .
Do you think then that this concept is based on a misunderstanding?
The reason small box speakers are said to image this way is because of the nature of their diffraction... not because of their driver size.
The reason small box speakers are said to soundstage this way might be connected with their wider directivity.
Large but low diffraction speakers tend to image well.
The extra "fastness" is only used to make the cone move further so it is more loud.. then all frequencies need to be that way just to 'keep up' with the others.
Well, I did some experimenting today to be sure about what changes I might want to make in speakers.
And while I have reported here recently that I really like the Piccolo speakers and just want to get a bigger sound field in my listening room, I now realize that there is considerably more to the story than that.
First, I located both the Piccolos and the ANs in exactly the same location in the room. So, room acoustics are taken completely out of the picture. Any difference now has to be due to the sound source itself, i.e., the speakers, and not the room.
By going back and listening to the much larger AN 10” drivers I now realize how much music has actually been missing with the smaller Piccolos. Again, I listen to classical music, symphonies, concertos, etc.
And you might not be missing that much if you just listen to simple music without much dynamic range. The demands put on the speaker for girl and guitar music don’t come anywhere close to the demands of a full symphony orchestra playing a complex and dynamic piece.
The part that is missing with smaller speakers is mainly in the bass and low midrange area, from about 200Hz to 500Hz. That’s where the smaller 6” drivers just can’t deliver what the larger 10” can. You can call it punch, authority, weight or anything you like. To me it’s like meat on the bones. Others may have a different term for it, but whatever you want to call it, there is a major difference in that range between the two sizes of drivers.
And while I have reported here recently that I really like the Piccolo speakers and just want to get a bigger sound field in my listening room, I now realize that there is considerably more to the story than that.
First, I located both the Piccolos and the ANs in exactly the same location in the room. So, room acoustics are taken completely out of the picture. Any difference now has to be due to the sound source itself, i.e., the speakers, and not the room.
By going back and listening to the much larger AN 10” drivers I now realize how much music has actually been missing with the smaller Piccolos. Again, I listen to classical music, symphonies, concertos, etc.
And you might not be missing that much if you just listen to simple music without much dynamic range. The demands put on the speaker for girl and guitar music don’t come anywhere close to the demands of a full symphony orchestra playing a complex and dynamic piece.
The part that is missing with smaller speakers is mainly in the bass and low midrange area, from about 200Hz to 500Hz. That’s where the smaller 6” drivers just can’t deliver what the larger 10” can. You can call it punch, authority, weight or anything you like. To me it’s like meat on the bones. Others may have a different term for it, but whatever you want to call it, there is a major difference in that range between the two sizes of drivers.
Yes, with increasing cone area, the volume of air moved (for the same excursion) increases dramatically, more notably at the lower frequencies. However, small speakers can be made to sound larger and fuller by increasing their baffle sizes. But since the total space occupied would then be similar to those of large speakers, it may not be an attractive solution to many.
Besides, many members fiercely defend their equipment if someone were to say they're small, less powerful etc., making it really difficult for others to convince them that they might indeed need bigger speakers. This is more so, if the said speakers also happen to be work of a prominent designer (like the OP's speakers in this thread).
Besides, many members fiercely defend their equipment if someone were to say they're small, less powerful etc., making it really difficult for others to convince them that they might indeed need bigger speakers. This is more so, if the said speakers also happen to be work of a prominent designer (like the OP's speakers in this thread).
AN 10" What the heck is ist???? Google couldn't give me any hits
Perhaps it means Audio Note AN-E 2-way? It is a 2-way with 8" woofer and elevated midrange output.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements
Perhaps it means Audio Note AN-E 2-way? It is a 2-way with 8" woofer and elevated midrange output.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements
In spite of what many members on this forum have stated. In my opinion, based on years of trying to get the highest sound quality I could on a modest budget. The amplifier and preamp have the largest effect on sound quality and sound stage next to the source material itself discounting of course acoustic room effects which can be large. I have not heard any AV receiver at any price under 3000 USD that is as good sounding as my modestly priced simple Rotel preamp and monoblocks. And I have got pretty good sound from really cheap speakers and good amplification at modest sound levels before I built my Watt Puppy clones.
You can combine the AV system and the stereo listening system into one system if your AV receiver has preamp outputs for the front speakers. Get the best sounding amplifier you can afford. Monoblocks are always better or a dual mono single chassis amp. I have an audio preamp and an AV receiver on my AV rack and I routinely switch the monoblocks from the AV receiver output to the Preamp output on the Rotel with a few seconds work depending on what I want to listen to. Music or movies.
Also, if your AV receiver has a pure direct mode try using that when listening to music. It will turn off much of the digital processing and increase the sound quality quite a bit. It will also improve the sound stage a little bit.
What you are talking about is a bigger sound. But that aside, the choice between small and large bass drivers is not just a matter of "punch" or "authority". Yes you get more punch with a 10in driver than a 4in one, but you may need to have separate mid and bass drivers, and a more complex crossover. Also, in other respects, you seem more than satisfied with the Piccolos. So, the best solution for you may be to augment them rather than replace them? There are various ways of achieving this, and I just want to suggest one that may not be the cheapest or simplest... build a pair of tower cases four times the internal volume of a Piccolo, transfer the existing drivers and crossover from the Piccolos, and add three more bass drivers. Then connect the four bass units to the crossover in series/parallel.
nah ... it just the inductance. The cone mass contributes to the damping. Heavier woofer cones will have a more limited bandwidth by comparison. I think you'll find that the drivers you are using/used to compare transient response (your sense of speed) may have more mass but the inductance is also higher. A lot of people attribute a drivers transient response (speed) to cone "weight" when it is in fact the increased voice coil inductance.
Fast bass… what does it mean?
People can hear a qualitative difference in bass performance between speakers, that much is obvious. Some bass sounds are percussive and highly dynamic, such as kick drum, electric bass, plucked double bass. With such sounds, some speakers give the impression of being slow or sluggish. Other speakers give the impression of being closer to the original sound, more real. People like to use the term “fast” to describe this impression.
The cone of the bass driver undergoes the full swing of velocity and acceleration with each cycle it makes. It fully accelerates to full velocity in one direction, then fully accelerates to full velocity in the other direction. If two speakers with the same Sd are playing a 40 Hz tone at the same dB SPL, both are radiating the same energy, both cones are experiencing the same velocity and acceleration. There is no difference in speed between the two, even if one sounds slow and the other fast. The higher the SPL, the higher the acceleration and velocity.
A transient bass sound with a peak SPL of 100 dB does not require more cone acceleration or velocity than a steady state sound of 100 dB. As the sound builds up in SPL, the acceleration increases. When a bass driver recreates a percussive, dynamic sound, the maximum velocity and acceleration is NOT at the start of the sound, but when the sound reaches max SPL and begins to decay.
None of this is new, and most of us know this. So what is going on here? Well, “fast bass” is just a description of how we perceive the sound. People who use the term “fast” to describe how they perceive bass sound quality are not foolish or stupid, but they may be confused about the physics involved. But not always... I like to use the term "fast" to describe high quality bass that preserves the punch and dynamics of the real event. It is just a word that captures their perception. They (and I) are hearing something, some aspect of performance, and it is probably a complicated set of acoustic processes that make bass sound “fast” rather than the more typical “slow or sluggish”.
So we should keep this in mind when someone talks about “fast” bass. They are hearing something real, something which is qualitatively better about the bass performance. It may be something we may not fully understand. We may need to describe the physics to them, but lecturing them about how “fast bass” is impossible is not helpful.
j.
People can hear a qualitative difference in bass performance between speakers, that much is obvious. Some bass sounds are percussive and highly dynamic, such as kick drum, electric bass, plucked double bass. With such sounds, some speakers give the impression of being slow or sluggish. Other speakers give the impression of being closer to the original sound, more real. People like to use the term “fast” to describe this impression.
The cone of the bass driver undergoes the full swing of velocity and acceleration with each cycle it makes. It fully accelerates to full velocity in one direction, then fully accelerates to full velocity in the other direction. If two speakers with the same Sd are playing a 40 Hz tone at the same dB SPL, both are radiating the same energy, both cones are experiencing the same velocity and acceleration. There is no difference in speed between the two, even if one sounds slow and the other fast. The higher the SPL, the higher the acceleration and velocity.
A transient bass sound with a peak SPL of 100 dB does not require more cone acceleration or velocity than a steady state sound of 100 dB. As the sound builds up in SPL, the acceleration increases. When a bass driver recreates a percussive, dynamic sound, the maximum velocity and acceleration is NOT at the start of the sound, but when the sound reaches max SPL and begins to decay.
None of this is new, and most of us know this. So what is going on here? Well, “fast bass” is just a description of how we perceive the sound. People who use the term “fast” to describe how they perceive bass sound quality are not foolish or stupid, but they may be confused about the physics involved. But not always... I like to use the term "fast" to describe high quality bass that preserves the punch and dynamics of the real event. It is just a word that captures their perception. They (and I) are hearing something, some aspect of performance, and it is probably a complicated set of acoustic processes that make bass sound “fast” rather than the more typical “slow or sluggish”.
So we should keep this in mind when someone talks about “fast” bass. They are hearing something real, something which is qualitatively better about the bass performance. It may be something we may not fully understand. We may need to describe the physics to them, but lecturing them about how “fast bass” is impossible is not helpful.
j.
Lets substitute word "bass " for midbass or upper bass and there will be no more confusion. In the purpose of this thread revolving around speakers for classical music it will be a useful frame. Just don't start how the music genre is irrelevant in the context because its simply not true especially considering that most here probably have never been to opera house or orchestra hall.
Sorry, I should have been more specific in each post. In previous posts I had identified the drivers as being Audio Nirvana Classic 10" full range. In subsequent posts I shortened that to AN 10s. I'll use the full name going forward to make sure that anyone coming in later to the discussion knows what they are. Thanks for bring up the issue.
Yeah, this is a really important point. A lot of people believe that it doesn't matter what kind of music you listen to when it comes to speaker selection. I've even heard that directly from some of the principal people in the companies selling drivers to the DIY market. The truth is that speakers matter a great deal on the type of music being played.
And your point about many people posting here have probably never heard a full symphony played in an orchestra hall or an watched an opera live in an opera house is very valid. Diana Krall at her piano in small theater is one thing. The New York Philharmonic playing at Lincoln Center is something entirely different.
Yeah, Dave, you are absolutely right about that. And having now tried returning to them I'm very aware of the problem.
So, at the moment I don't have a really good solution. The Piccolos are lacking in the bass and mid bass region and the Audio Nirvanas exhibit ringing. Just need to figure out what to do next.