Respectfully, that's not a valid test of anything but a very long reverb time. Hearing integrates the first 20-30ms in an impluse, but that's more than enough to mess with imaging.
Just curious, what convinces you of that?
Unfortunately, that's never true in an untreated room unless you are VERY close to the speakers to the extent that any reflections are far below the first arrival in level and displaced in time. But I'm not there, so I can't comment specifically.
Yeah, I agree with this. The Piccolos just don't have enough Sd to provide the richness needed in the bass and low midrange areas for orchestrical music. All these other comments that people make about room treatments being a solution just simply can't make up for the lack of driver size.
I've looked at the Karios woofer module as a possible solution. It's larger than I would like to have in the room, but certainly a possibility. Am looking at other one piece builds as well that are somewhat smaller in overall size and appearance.
Back in '89, when I first heard the Acoustic Energy AE1s in a dealer's demo, he had them in a small room about 10x12 max.... with very good analog front end equipment. When he played the Cantate Domino LP, I knew I wanted those speakers.
Mind you, I had been listening to Monitor Audio's, B&Ws, Sonu Farber... and was ready to spring for them.. Soundstaging and imaging are very important to me and I had a small room where I was gonna install them.
You want imaging, soundstage, etc, etc... Those little AE1s blew everything else away. In quite a small room, no less.
I now got two pairs of them, in small rooms in my house, so that's why I know you don't need a big woofer to get a good facsimile of orchestral music in a small room. You just need a speaker that has low distortion, great microdynamics and macrodynamics. You want those speaker drivers not to be there, in essence.
They even do the organ music very well.... pretty much, the four walls of the room disappear and you are in a European Church.
Speaking of European Churches... I you haven't heard classical music in a Western European Cathedral, I suggest you drop your quest for audio soundstaging and go there, ASAP, to understand what it's all about. Much of that music was written for such, to use the decay and height of those buildings. The organ, voices, strings, etc... all come from all over you. Loong reverberation. That is imaging, that is soundstage!
Sure, sure, there are modern halls nowadays that do great. Our local one is Segestrom in Costa Mesa and it sounds great, with a classical shoe box, hard surfaces and good layout. It even has an organ! But, while it does great with a "modern" classical work, anything post 18th century, it won't do correctly the sounds that Cantate Domino so well captured.
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No, the "speed" of a woofer (audio driver) is a time measurement. It is based on stored energy (or lack of) that affects the overshoot and undershoot. It's an analog, time based measurement... typically the rise and fall time of a wave. Done with a scope, not a spectrum analyzer.
It doesn't have much to do with amplitude (in terms of loudness) nor frequency (in terms of bandwidth).
"Fast bass" hence means a device that stores very little energy.. .and since F=ma and P=mv... you can see that the Mass of the driver is extremely important. A light cone or membrane is what is needed here. That's the reason why many manufacturers use light metals and carbon and "nano materials" to make their drivers: LOW MASS. Hence, FAST BASS.
Interesting.
I recently had a fellow build me a B1Korg. It is biased based on distortion as well. So I asked him to bring out the test points to the back panel so I can, if I so wish, open the lid, put in a multimeter and adjust the "sound". I guess I should have brought the pots out too....
That's damping, not speed.
Damping does have to do with frequency, and resonance.
Yes, low mass is easier to damp. I've always objected to the term FAST BASS and will continue to do so because it has nothing to do with actual speed. It's damping of overshoot caused by mass and resonance. There is an exact parallel in filter optimization.
I like the rug... but the system would sound better if the rug had a straight tonearm.
Do you think they make rugs with a linear tonearm?
;-)
Per the picture, it looks like you've done some heroics to take the room out of the picture... except that in the mid/low bass you're stuck with the eigenvectors of the geometry.
I gave you the equations:
F = ma ( Force equals mass times acceleration )
P = ma ( Momentum equals mass times acceleration ).
It has NOTHING to do with damping, that would be achieved by a very powerful magnet or a very low impedance amplifier output.
The first adds mass to the moving armature.... a brute force. The second is called "damping factor" and defines the control of the amplifier over the back EMF of the driver.
Damping solutions are "fixes" for too much MASS.
The idea is simple, a low mass driver does not "rob" energy from the audio signal the amplifier is putting out... most of the amplifier's signal gets converted into acoustic energy... no overhang, no underhang, no resonances, etc, etc... You get the signal. Hence, a low mass driver can generate as much acoustic energy into a room as a higher mass driver. There are many, MANY speaker manufacturers doing this.
Look, all of my speakers are based on the principle of low mass drivers... and I can get excellent soundstaging in small rooms. Heck, my oldest speakers, a pair of '77 ADS L810's, with paper cone woofers, already used two 8" woofers to gain "speed". Compare it with the contemporary JBL L100 ( Century ) and you'll understand. At the time it was East vs West Coast sound. The East Coast sound used lighter drivers and had much faster, less boomy bass.
+++
Speaking of East Coast sound.... I think I'm gonna do listen to some music now... I just got my Marantz 2325 fully rebuilt ( every board redone... nope! nyet! not gonna sell it in this fool's used audio market ) and hooked up to the ADS L810s. Tuned to KLOS ( mostly 70s and 80s rock ) and listen to some Loud Hair Bands.
Soundstage? You kidding?
Fun? You betcha! ;-D
In the end, I'm curious what the OP will do. I think we've given him plenty of ammo... my solutions work well in my small rooms.. in my den (HT) and living room (2ch) I got more "grown up" systems. It works for me.
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You forgot inertia.
Sort of, probably not to the extent most people thing though because of the actual impedance between the driver, crossover and amp.
Again, only to a degree. Your low mass solution solves all of it.
I'm not debating the physics, only the pop-cultur terminology, "speed" as applied to a woofer. Just the wrong term, and it takes the unaware down a really wrong path.
Yes!
Again, not debating the solution or the physics, just objecting to the term.
Doesn't Le (voice coil inductance) play "the" role in a woofers impulse response rise time ... not added mass?
https://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/products/ae1-active/
Are you listening to a
wide soundstage, which may sound fantastic, but not the lower frequencies that a church organ produces.
Physics says that a speaker cabinet radiating 42hz +/- 6dB in a small room can't do it.
You don't lose too much anyway, and I agree that it's best to go in person...😉
Actually, I got my equations wrong
F = mA (acceleration)
P= mV( velocity )
And, no I did NOT forget "inertia"... because that can be solved as:
F(t) = mA(t)
P(t) = mV(t)...
or more generally, in the case of pistonic motion as
F( Bsin angle, t) = m A(Bsin angle, t)
P( Bsin angle, t) = m V(Bsin angle, t).
Where, the angle is related to inertia in the way the force and momentum changes through the 360 degree motion ( harmonic pistonic motion ).
Notice that 'B', the audio signal, also changes, so B : B(t), and so, it turns out that B(t)(sin angle) could take out the t term:
F(B(t)(sin angle)) = m A(B(t)(sin angle) ) and so on.... meaning that the force being fed into the driver is a function of time (audio signal) and also a function of the mechanical design of the driver's design. In the middle of its travel, it's the most linear and likely the inertia is the most Newtonian.. but at the limits of excursion it introduces a counter force ( to slow down the travel.. think of a spring when fully stretched ).
OK, so much for Mechanics 351.
And, oh, we haven't even introduced the design of the driver. This is where I think the OP is wrong. Perhaps he ought to think of dipoles and omnipoles. If his front speakers are 2" from the wall, he might be able to introduce a rear facing tweeter/midrange?
It’s kind of astounding how fortunate you have been not just in terms of thread engagement but also in terms of there being a ready-made, hold you by the hand solution written by the guy who designed the very speakers that you really would love to keep if possible, the solution allows you to absolutely do that (it is even sold as a kit!) and yet you’re still finding things to object to. It’s amazing really.
That is definitely true. I think Tony Cordsman once wrote an article at TAS: "Who Stole The Bass" deriding mini monitors. But then this is the guy who's had Harbeth 40s as his reference for years.
The trick is your mind. The mini monitors fit the small room nicely because they don't introduce low bass that would excite the resonance.. hence the signal is clean and generally free of overtones and unwanted resonances.
So, with just a bit of deep end but a very accurate mid bass, you "hear" the organ... not "feel" it.
Yeah, there's this Buddhist in downtown LA that has a side chapel that would make for an awesome sound room. If I ever win the Lotto, we're gonna build us a house with a room like that. Then I'll put an awesome audio system.. so I can play some... Ozzie... ;-)
BTW, I got the Signature AE1s, the passive ones, not the newer actives.
Yes it does. It all does. But mass is fundamental because it affects the stored energy, the electromagnetic characteristics of the voice coil affect the transfer of force.
The most accurate equations, thus, do need to take into account the voice coil performance. But think, the lighter the cone, the less force the coil needs to generate. Ideally, the coil would not see the mass of the driver and only have to deal with the acoustic impedance of the air that is being moved.
Yeah, when i hear the term "speed" applied to woofers or subwoofers, my eyes roll back.
Why folks can't understand "speed", or more precisely transient response, is a full-range phenomenon, i just don't get.
A simple equation/identity ..... "speed" =transient response = full range response.
Perfect "speed" = flat full-range range frequency response, (with flat full range phase response. for perfect perfect)
Evaluating subs alone for "speed", is utter nonsense, imnsho.
That simple folks !!!!
That simple folks !!!!
My subwoofer´s speakers were chosen with a low Mms to make them "faster", is that wrong?, I'm just asking, because I've had mixed opinions in favor and others that say it doesn't mean anything. A light cone, wide SD and good BL, don't they make a difference? ( assuming equal FS and Xmax ) 🤔
My subwoofer´s speakers were chosen with a low Mms to make them "faster", is that wrong?, I'm just asking, because I've had mixed opinions in favor and others that say it doesn't mean anything. A light cone, wide SD and good BL, don't they make a difference? ( assuming equal FS and Xmax ) 🤔
I think I have already said that the Karios woofer module is a possible solution, and I am considering it. I just don't see anything wrong with looking at other alternatives before deciding on what to do. Maybe there is something out there that I would like even better. Can't tell until you have looked.