Phase plugs for tweeters probably have to be very carefully designed, so I'm not too surprised it didn't work. It's good to try all these ideas though, great work!
This timbrel and tonal warmth thing has been bugging me a lot. Peakiness in the treble and a thinness to the mids especially with voices was still not perfect. Things are now gonna get a little crazy.
I have made a BREAKTHROUGH
Initial impressions are very favourable.
WOOL WOOL WOOL.
I stuffed intially the inner perimeter of the cones using the phase plug as support and found this helped flesh out the tones. Too little and it remained lean and shouty, too much and the air and details would go. Get just the right amount and you can start to feel the emotion in the voices with the increased tonal variation and timbres. I then stuffed some inside each gap in the chassis of each speaker. Too much and you got wonderful focus but leanness,(presume this is due to the pressure effect against cone movement), too little and the benefit is minimal, however just a gentle stuffing covering the entire cone but with minimal pressure on the cone movement and i was geting close to what I have been looking for.
See photo. messy business, but works, now i am getting closer to the timbrel qualities I missed from my electrostatics and boxed speakers. With NO obvious effect on transparency, dynamics or details !!!!!!!See the photos.
I have made a BREAKTHROUGH
Initial impressions are very favourable.
WOOL WOOL WOOL.
I stuffed intially the inner perimeter of the cones using the phase plug as support and found this helped flesh out the tones. Too little and it remained lean and shouty, too much and the air and details would go. Get just the right amount and you can start to feel the emotion in the voices with the increased tonal variation and timbres. I then stuffed some inside each gap in the chassis of each speaker. Too much and you got wonderful focus but leanness,(presume this is due to the pressure effect against cone movement), too little and the benefit is minimal, however just a gentle stuffing covering the entire cone but with minimal pressure on the cone movement and i was geting close to what I have been looking for.
See photo. messy business, but works, now i am getting closer to the timbrel qualities I missed from my electrostatics and boxed speakers. With NO obvious effect on transparency, dynamics or details !!!!!!!See the photos.
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I think this may be why someone invented grill cloth!
This reminds me of some experiments I did years ago with damping dome tweeters by the simple expedient of touching the dome lightly with my finger tip. I did this out of curiosity after trying to imagine what happened to the energy put into the dome around its periphery by the voice coil. Obviously it traveled across the surface toward the middle, but what then? I imagined a chaotic meeting in the middle and that it might benefit from being damped.
Well it seemed to! The result was not subtle and sounded like a distinct benefit to me, but I didn't have any means to measure the result.
This reminds me of some experiments I did years ago with damping dome tweeters by the simple expedient of touching the dome lightly with my finger tip. I did this out of curiosity after trying to imagine what happened to the energy put into the dome around its periphery by the voice coil. Obviously it traveled across the surface toward the middle, but what then? I imagined a chaotic meeting in the middle and that it might benefit from being damped.
Well it seemed to! The result was not subtle and sounded like a distinct benefit to me, but I didn't have any means to measure the result.
still not right....... listening to two stringed instruments at the same time still highlighted to me that their timbral differences were not sufficiently clear to demonstrate that there were two clearly different instruments contributing to the overall sound and tune. Although seperation was the best i have ever heard on this savanna cd.
???time for the tone tubby's
This is now getting irritating, as alive as it sounds, I cannot fully appreciate the emotion and interplay between the instrumentalists without the right tonal variations. Where next??
???time for the tone tubby's
This is now getting irritating, as alive as it sounds, I cannot fully appreciate the emotion and interplay between the instrumentalists without the right tonal variations. Where next??
I can add the max. no. of screws possible for securing the speakers to the plywood, but feel certain this will not resolve the situation. It is a more profound effect i am after. One that I believe physically mimics the instruments themselves in getting their harmonic structures right. Like Nelson hinted the sound of an instrument e.g like a guitar is related to the enclosure being present which will resonate. I willl either try the tone tubby's as they are supposed to be the 'kings of tone', or put semi rear enclosed boxes around the midrange drivers, but my woodwork skills are crap.
Or I will totally abandon the idea and go for the Anthony Gallo Reference speakers that achieve the same phenomena but utilise some form of spherical metal enclosure that allows some form of interaction between the drivers and a 'box'.
With all due respect to all you diy guys out there but due to the lack of description of the music that is heard from your diy jobs, I never really get to understand what it is that you are hearing subjectively. So i am never sure from hardly any of the projects exactly what you understand from the term 'real sounding'. Yes lots of lovely graphs ad measurements, but in most audiophile magazines measurements and the subjective sound quality do not always go hand in hand. Even more concerning is whether there is a consideration for and understanding of the subtleties of harmonics timbre and tone. Speak to an audiophile and they will go on and on about these ideas and observations as these are some of the prime elements that contribute to the emotion in the music. Yes yes yes listening to music is an incredibly subjective thing and we can claim that we all have our own preferences to what brings enjoyment to our ears and inherently there will be no worldwide standardisation and therefore we can argue about this till we are blue in the face.
However , in my search for musical nirvana, how come the electrostaics can do these tonality thingys so well??? Large surface area mimics surface area of a large enclosure??????
Or I will totally abandon the idea and go for the Anthony Gallo Reference speakers that achieve the same phenomena but utilise some form of spherical metal enclosure that allows some form of interaction between the drivers and a 'box'.
With all due respect to all you diy guys out there but due to the lack of description of the music that is heard from your diy jobs, I never really get to understand what it is that you are hearing subjectively. So i am never sure from hardly any of the projects exactly what you understand from the term 'real sounding'. Yes lots of lovely graphs ad measurements, but in most audiophile magazines measurements and the subjective sound quality do not always go hand in hand. Even more concerning is whether there is a consideration for and understanding of the subtleties of harmonics timbre and tone. Speak to an audiophile and they will go on and on about these ideas and observations as these are some of the prime elements that contribute to the emotion in the music. Yes yes yes listening to music is an incredibly subjective thing and we can claim that we all have our own preferences to what brings enjoyment to our ears and inherently there will be no worldwide standardisation and therefore we can argue about this till we are blue in the face.
However , in my search for musical nirvana, how come the electrostaics can do these tonality thingys so well??? Large surface area mimics surface area of a large enclosure??????
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Not thinking I'm as picky at tonal perfectness then you, I'd nevertheless suggest to try some miracle medicine and "swing the speaker".
Just cut the baffle slightly bigger than the outer diameter of the basket and hang the the speaker at a rope or stranded steel wires or a chain - whatever you feel like - so that it can move freely in the OB hole.
Sounds strange at a first glance, but I'm pretty sure you will get the last (lost) quantum of resolution you are looking for.
🙂
Michael
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Interesting,I think, but I will play it safe. I will go for those guitar speakers which prize themselves for use in open back baffles, huge Qmax, and tons of tone.Not sure which one would be best for general audiophile use. I know eminence make ceramic magnet hemp cone speakers , I think these will be the ones for value versus quality. Tone Tubby's might not necessarily be worth the price.
Will order four of these then report back.
Also not certain active subwoofers is the way to go either. Powerful single amp for all the drivers and a passive crossover might add to the cohesiveness and filling of upper bass loss that tends to occur in my baffle projects, without truncating the signal any further.
Will order four of these then report back.
Also not certain active subwoofers is the way to go either. Powerful single amp for all the drivers and a passive crossover might add to the cohesiveness and filling of upper bass loss that tends to occur in my baffle projects, without truncating the signal any further.
If you are after a little bit of "boxiness" with OB - have you tried to add some wings ?
Michael
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True, mine are looking very messy. But isnt the very essence of harmonics being a result of resonance being defeated by your idea??
Thought about the wings, should really implement it as part of the investigations instead of trying to avoid the woodwork.
Thanks for reminding me.
Thought about the wings, should really implement it as part of the investigations instead of trying to avoid the woodwork.
Thanks for reminding me.
I'm sure wing colouration is only a bad thing but it's good to try things first hand 🙂
They can certainly extend the bass a lot. I'd suggest tapered wings to hopefully reduce resonance type of effects.
Simon
They can certainly extend the bass a lot. I'd suggest tapered wings to hopefully reduce resonance type of effects.
Simon
Be sure I didn't focus on the messy look, not at all ! - rather I got the feeling you follow unconventional ideas - thus I was flabbergasted when you brought the "I play it save" thing.
😀
Would not have suggested *if* you would not have mentioned looking after a "more profound effect".
Not that other speakers may not have more / better of this or that, worth to explore anytime - but if you really would like to go beyond that - well ...
Michael
Depends - listening is to no small degree related to adaption - adaption that works on *very* different time scales.
"In general" I'd be tempted to agree but on the other hand wings can be utilized - just as any other fancy effect that makes music listening juicy
😉
Michael
Maybe my words aren't good to be taken literally. I am listening with wings right now and it's just fine 🙂
HI Mige0
I see what you mean, unconventional as oppossed to messy.
The idea of hanging something from the ceiling was not a shocker in itself, it was just a step too far in terms of cosmetics for the room as a whole.
I am waiting for the hemp cone speakers to help with the tone, wings I will crudely attempt this weekend.
I bought a pair of Anthony Gallo metallic speaker balls, and i could see the exact same qualities I see with my open baffles. Wonderful in many respects but lacking in harmonics and timbre, especially when it comes to stringed instruments and piano.
What interests me most, is the lack of complaint from other open baffle users of these important characteristics. So much so that i am concerned about what it is that we all universally agree as correct sounding. Cohesive and musicial sounding? are these not important emotional components of what we hear ? and are they not the products of the complexities of each instrumental note? Its organisation into a note, envelopment and then gradual decay. Within which there are numerous contributing sound waves. Its the latter that I think only boxed speakers and electrostatics can create. However, i have not tried enough different types of open baffles to be sure if it can or cannot be achieved by this design.
Hemp cones for the moment have captured my total imagination, and am waiting for imports of some of these.
I see what you mean, unconventional as oppossed to messy.
The idea of hanging something from the ceiling was not a shocker in itself, it was just a step too far in terms of cosmetics for the room as a whole.
I am waiting for the hemp cone speakers to help with the tone, wings I will crudely attempt this weekend.
I bought a pair of Anthony Gallo metallic speaker balls, and i could see the exact same qualities I see with my open baffles. Wonderful in many respects but lacking in harmonics and timbre, especially when it comes to stringed instruments and piano.
What interests me most, is the lack of complaint from other open baffle users of these important characteristics. So much so that i am concerned about what it is that we all universally agree as correct sounding. Cohesive and musicial sounding? are these not important emotional components of what we hear ? and are they not the products of the complexities of each instrumental note? Its organisation into a note, envelopment and then gradual decay. Within which there are numerous contributing sound waves. Its the latter that I think only boxed speakers and electrostatics can create. However, i have not tried enough different types of open baffles to be sure if it can or cannot be achieved by this design.
Hemp cones for the moment have captured my total imagination, and am waiting for imports of some of these.
has anyone seen this creation, now this is what i'm talking about, this guy is definately on the right track
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/57614-open-baffle-vs-box-speaker-question.html.
and I see Mige0 has greatly contributed to the 'beyond the ariel' famous thread. What must he think of my lowly, non technical, guess work driven ideas?????
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/57614-open-baffle-vs-box-speaker-question.html.
and I see Mige0 has greatly contributed to the 'beyond the ariel' famous thread. What must he think of my lowly, non technical, guess work driven ideas?????
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That's in interesting thread. I do also hear the lack of "body" from my open baffle speakers, there's quite a big trade-off there. I do wonder if my next ones will deal with the problems I can hear...
Simon
how many different drivers have you used in your open baffle arrangements?? I guess I should re read your own thread again.
I noticed today that even the high frequency instruments lacked body, and hence less inner deatil and tonal warmth. So it looks like the tweeter will need to be changed as well or tweaked in some way. This trade off with lack of 'body' for me is unacceptable it robs the music of too much of its romance and cohesion.
I also note the baffle it self, which obviously will resonate, may play a role here. Using mdf instead of plywood might help provide some much needed resonance - of the appropriate type of course! So far the fibre wool is the only helpful addition in this respect, and if anyone thinks their speaker cone shouts, stuff the centre with fibrewool and see what happens!!
how many different drivers have you used in your open baffle arrangements?? I guess I should re read your own thread again.
I noticed today that even the high frequency instruments lacked body, and hence less inner deatil and tonal warmth. So it looks like the tweeter will need to be changed as well or tweaked in some way. This trade off with lack of 'body' for me is unacceptable it robs the music of too much of its romance and cohesion.
I also note the baffle it self, which obviously will resonate, may play a role here. Using mdf instead of plywood might help provide some much needed resonance - of the appropriate type of course! So far the fibre wool is the only helpful addition in this respect, and if anyone thinks their speaker cone shouts, stuff the centre with fibrewool and see what happens!!
As much as your attempt to find *your* sound with mix and match plus mod is admirable IMHO – developing a speaker (your speaker) might get frustrating for you in the long run - simply as you lack a more objective base line to out weight "ears first" impressions now and then.
Look back at what you wrote here – you got excellent results and have been overwhelmed by the "OB factor" and after some time slight mis-tones crept in.
Though - from what you told - you have reached a pretty high level of satisfaction so far
What you found in OB IMO is the different presentation due to way different "room driving" by the backwards radiated sound – this was the most thrilling thing for me too (and I actually would encourage your on adding backfiring tweeter) together with "crazy !- it really could work"....
Once the addictive moment of life like presentation and extreme simple construction is fading, this may be the best moment to *seriousely* think about how you want to deal with EQ (= tonality alignment) *in general*.
A multi way dynamic speaker in OB is a different animal compared to electrostats - plagued with a *lot* of compromises in many respects.
For now you have been following the foot steps of others (Bastiani eg) but once you are no longer *on track* with his design, you enter the wide field of looking after your own path.
In short - I'd like to again blow the horn you should dive into some measurements. Not that this helps that much in getting rid of the hair in your soup but at least you possibly can identify if they are possibly of your desire 🙂
Given your obvious demands on tonality, without EQing you will be facing hard times to find *the* driver(s) where it is so much easier to turn the EQ's knobs (literally speaking). Think about it a second - what you actually have on your wish list is way more than a simple miracle to find "of the shelf" ....
On the other hand what I hear from your "complaints" is that you also are after one or two very different qualities not to describe by frequency response and thus not to be overcome by EQ'ing.
One issue seems to be the "boxless" sound of OB. To me its very interesting that you have difficulties here, given your long time listening with (baffleless-) electrostats. It indicates that there is something different on the two principles probably not quite pin pointed by now.
My suggestion above was aimed into this direction, you don't have to hang from the ceiling, a frame is perfect or you even can attach the swing to the baffle itself
I'd be surprised if you find what you are looking for in adding wings or placing fancy resonance chambers below your speaker - but who am I anyway 😉 – and also it seems you have to try just to get clear about
Actually, I think you rather have too much of resonance (the baffle kicks back – you know...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkox6niJ1Wc
...well you have asked
😀
Michael
Look back at what you wrote here – you got excellent results and have been overwhelmed by the "OB factor" and after some time slight mis-tones crept in.
Though - from what you told - you have reached a pretty high level of satisfaction so far
What you found in OB IMO is the different presentation due to way different "room driving" by the backwards radiated sound – this was the most thrilling thing for me too (and I actually would encourage your on adding backfiring tweeter) together with "crazy !- it really could work"....
Once the addictive moment of life like presentation and extreme simple construction is fading, this may be the best moment to *seriousely* think about how you want to deal with EQ (= tonality alignment) *in general*.
A multi way dynamic speaker in OB is a different animal compared to electrostats - plagued with a *lot* of compromises in many respects.
For now you have been following the foot steps of others (Bastiani eg) but once you are no longer *on track* with his design, you enter the wide field of looking after your own path.
In short - I'd like to again blow the horn you should dive into some measurements. Not that this helps that much in getting rid of the hair in your soup but at least you possibly can identify if they are possibly of your desire 🙂
Given your obvious demands on tonality, without EQing you will be facing hard times to find *the* driver(s) where it is so much easier to turn the EQ's knobs (literally speaking). Think about it a second - what you actually have on your wish list is way more than a simple miracle to find "of the shelf" ....
On the other hand what I hear from your "complaints" is that you also are after one or two very different qualities not to describe by frequency response and thus not to be overcome by EQ'ing.
One issue seems to be the "boxless" sound of OB. To me its very interesting that you have difficulties here, given your long time listening with (baffleless-) electrostats. It indicates that there is something different on the two principles probably not quite pin pointed by now.
My suggestion above was aimed into this direction, you don't have to hang from the ceiling, a frame is perfect or you even can attach the swing to the baffle itself
I'd be surprised if you find what you are looking for in adding wings or placing fancy resonance chambers below your speaker - but who am I anyway 😉 – and also it seems you have to try just to get clear about
Actually, I think you rather have too much of resonance (the baffle kicks back – you know...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkox6niJ1Wc
...well you have asked
😀
Michael
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