I'd describe it as dropping quickly ie. there'll be no bass unless it's EQ'd or otherwise altered.
Thanks for that. This is really useful information.
The way I would do it, is exactly like the original Bastanis are done. That is open baffle Tweeter and Mid, and ported or sealed cabinet for the Bass.
So thats Beyma Tweeter, 2 x 12" Eminence mid in open baffle design, and 2 x 10" (or possibly 2 x 12") woofer in ported or sealed cabinet for bass.
For my ears I like 10" jensens boxes of 4 or 6 . you can mix 2X12" boxes and 4X10" boxes... lots of bass players like Hartke cabs mixed. I prefer fender amps but for bass I think Ampeg SVT is where its at.
Now that I've stirred up that bees nest I will wait for the flames to begin...
Elwood
Now that I've stirred up that bees nest I will wait for the flames to begin...
Elwood
Never played through Jensens so can't comment on that one.
Yes, Fender amps for regular 6 string guitar, but not bass. My very first Bass amp and cabinet was a Fender, and I quickly learned, that while Fender make great guitars, and basses, their bass amps are mediocre (not bad, but not great)
Well it is heartening to see other people that actually play bass guitar agreeing about multiple 10" woofers.
I think everyone's opinion should be respected here, no need to flame each other.
Yes, Fender amps for regular 6 string guitar, but not bass. My very first Bass amp and cabinet was a Fender, and I quickly learned, that while Fender make great guitars, and basses, their bass amps are mediocre (not bad, but not great)
Well it is heartening to see other people that actually play bass guitar agreeing about multiple 10" woofers.
I think everyone's opinion should be respected here, no need to flame each other.
Been a while since i got back to hifi, due to work issues, but managed to get interested again yesterday and especially in my speakers. Within a few hours of returning, as I only had a solid state amp to use, I discovered an irritating and extreme case of 'shouting in the upper registers of the rex's( which was less obvious with the valve amps but nonetheless was still there) After three hours of messing around, this is how i resolved it, and in the process identified that tonal colours were not just part and parcel of a resonant box, but the electrical characteristics of the signals fed to the drivers. Mechanical padding of the chassis or alterations to the cone paper with dampers made surprisingly very little difference with the rex drivers, although putting wool within the chassis helped as usual in a satisfying manner but only up to a point. However, the solid state really highlighted the problem of shouting to a severe and unbearable degree.
By putting a 6mH inductor with a resistor in parallel of several hundred ohms in series with the positive input of the speakers, this almost completely elliminated the shout but more dramatically improved the tonal warmth with more solidity and more harmoinics becoming apparent. This was more akin to having a box speaker without losing all the benefits of the open baffle sound. Success. However it sounded course at all frequencies almost distorted. Probably more through invention than any solid theory, I put a zero audio autoformer 2:1 and the roughness completely disappeared.
I finished listenting to my system with great satisfaction. I must admit what down grade there may or may not have been by adding these components I got overall a far more realistic and enjoyable sound with them in.
So crossovers can degrade the sound do they?? well this mini series of tests shows that they actually help provide the speaker with a signal that is in the correct format for open baffles to sound more akin to the harmonic richness i notice from closed box speakers, something I had been annoyed by for some time.
I need to spend more time listening to these speakers in their present format, but it looks like inductors play a huge role in balancing frequencies/db out from these open baffle drivers, without which you can never fully attain the full spectrum of harmonics.
By putting a 6mH inductor with a resistor in parallel of several hundred ohms in series with the positive input of the speakers, this almost completely elliminated the shout but more dramatically improved the tonal warmth with more solidity and more harmoinics becoming apparent. This was more akin to having a box speaker without losing all the benefits of the open baffle sound. Success. However it sounded course at all frequencies almost distorted. Probably more through invention than any solid theory, I put a zero audio autoformer 2:1 and the roughness completely disappeared.
I finished listenting to my system with great satisfaction. I must admit what down grade there may or may not have been by adding these components I got overall a far more realistic and enjoyable sound with them in.
So crossovers can degrade the sound do they?? well this mini series of tests shows that they actually help provide the speaker with a signal that is in the correct format for open baffles to sound more akin to the harmonic richness i notice from closed box speakers, something I had been annoyed by for some time.
I need to spend more time listening to these speakers in their present format, but it looks like inductors play a huge role in balancing frequencies/db out from these open baffle drivers, without which you can never fully attain the full spectrum of harmonics.
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Forgot to add i am now for the first time enjoying the bass from my subwoofer dipoles. Like many before have said boost the lower registers as compensation. Got a technics equaliser boosted 20-60 hz (not equally thoughout the frequencies mind you)and bang the shy base from the 12" woofers came to life without muddling frequencies above 120hz upwards and once more i had good quality bass and drive to my music.
Still waiting to try a musicians bass speaker/driver cabinet, Trace Elliot looks like good value. Still bidding on ebay for one. Will report back and will cf dipoles soon as I get one.
Still waiting to try a musicians bass speaker/driver cabinet, Trace Elliot looks like good value. Still bidding on ebay for one. Will report back and will cf dipoles soon as I get one.
I Look forward to that.
I have decided to have a go at this as well, although I am going to try coaxials. So far it is either going to be Radian 5312 or 5208c or P.Audio BM12cx38 or BM15CX38 for the coaxials.
Then 2x10 (bass speakers) in vented or sealed cabinet, if required.
If you have the money check out Radian 850PB compression driver, they seem good from what I have read so far
I have decided to have a go at this as well, although I am going to try coaxials. So far it is either going to be Radian 5312 or 5208c or P.Audio BM12cx38 or BM15CX38 for the coaxials.
Then 2x10 (bass speakers) in vented or sealed cabinet, if required.
If you have the money check out Radian 850PB compression driver, they seem good from what I have read so far
Thanh
I am quite excited by the idea of trying a bass speaker actually used for live performances by musicians.
Keep us updated on your version, i hope betwen us one of us will be able to get actual measurements on the frequency response of these speakers
I am quite excited by the idea of trying a bass speaker actually used for live performances by musicians.
Keep us updated on your version, i hope betwen us one of us will be able to get actual measurements on the frequency response of these speakers
Tried a trace elliott 65 guitar speaker amp far superior to the boom boxes such as rel but still not as good as the dipoles.
As good as the speakers sound in there present configuration, so live, so present, ultimately i am still quite not getting those harmonics and microdynamics that many a boxed speaker will provide that gives the music its emotion. You can add a subwoofer in an enclosed cavity that will give you some of those timbrel textures, but often at the expense of clarity. Tried so many configurations now that i think i have exhausted all avenues. You need wood and resonance unless its a planar speaker, alternatively one spectacular driver that does the film thing or mimics an enclosed wooden cabinet.....dont think so.
I may abandon this project and reconsider ready built magnepans and the like!!
As good as the speakers sound in there present configuration, so live, so present, ultimately i am still quite not getting those harmonics and microdynamics that many a boxed speaker will provide that gives the music its emotion. You can add a subwoofer in an enclosed cavity that will give you some of those timbrel textures, but often at the expense of clarity. Tried so many configurations now that i think i have exhausted all avenues. You need wood and resonance unless its a planar speaker, alternatively one spectacular driver that does the film thing or mimics an enclosed wooden cabinet.....dont think so.
I may abandon this project and reconsider ready built magnepans and the like!!
Hi, you can try adding one more channel that will contain a boxed speaker for example saba greencone, very nice alnico driver not expensive either.Run it attenuated - that way you will have all the benefits of open baffle speakers + saba will add your missing resonances.
If you have more money to spend older tannoy's are great drivers.
If you have more money to spend older tannoy's are great drivers.
Funny you say that I do have saba greencones, never used them though. Was it not lampizator that had those multiway drivers in open baffle. The inherent properties of cone drivers without an enclosure i believe fundamentally cannot achieve the complex harmonics needed. I have now used hemp cone which is supposed to be a 'tone master'. Wafer thin film seems to be able to do it though without an enclosure.
Just listen to a piano, I find it such a hard instrument to copy in an audio system. Yet the emotion is not in how present or live the sound feels it is in the harmonics that the musician weaves into the emotion that he wishes to bring forth when he plays. Sadly, I have not been able to achieve this. So it seems I have progressed in my feelings towards compromises ( as that is what we are all faced with) as not being first and foremost being life-like in presence, but in the emotion it expreses.
For those of you pondering over the terms 'musicality' and 'emotional connection' etc. Let me be more comprehensive. I am able to get the timing and rhythm spot on with my equipment as NAim does but it is then the harmonic textures that are surmised in the minds of the musicains that ultimately provoke the greatest sense of emotional connection in more complex less rhythmical pieces.
Just listen to a piano, I find it such a hard instrument to copy in an audio system. Yet the emotion is not in how present or live the sound feels it is in the harmonics that the musician weaves into the emotion that he wishes to bring forth when he plays. Sadly, I have not been able to achieve this. So it seems I have progressed in my feelings towards compromises ( as that is what we are all faced with) as not being first and foremost being life-like in presence, but in the emotion it expreses.
For those of you pondering over the terms 'musicality' and 'emotional connection' etc. Let me be more comprehensive. I am able to get the timing and rhythm spot on with my equipment as NAim does but it is then the harmonic textures that are surmised in the minds of the musicains that ultimately provoke the greatest sense of emotional connection in more complex less rhythmical pieces.
Maybe you just need a different amp ?
I for example have two valve amps Almarro A318B - 18w and OTL Transcendent sound single ended 1.5w . Transcendent amp is very fast very detailed it is spectacular but it lacks emotion - it is cold to my ears. And Almarro is really good at portraying emotion, you just connect with music.
I for example have two valve amps Almarro A318B - 18w and OTL Transcendent sound single ended 1.5w . Transcendent amp is very fast very detailed it is spectacular but it lacks emotion - it is cold to my ears. And Almarro is really good at portraying emotion, you just connect with music.
Audiojoy,
A couple of questions for you. Please don't think I question what you hear or don't, just trying to get a grasp on maybe some of the things you state.
The nuances, musicality, timber, emotions,etc., that the musicians are trying to portray, shouldn't that be on the recording from their instruments, not a development from your "boxed" speaker? If your speaker just plays whats on the recording you should hear it, not have your speakers make their own resonances.
Also, wouldn't the lack of a chamber on the rear of a driver, allow for greater sensitivity, thereby allowing a "faster" cone response and better finite detail?
I have a diy version of the Prometheus, which on some music is very incredible, some kind of...hmmm.. Not bad, just, probably a little shouty from the 12" mid-range. Worse I think when toed-in. If I could just make them a little more mellow without valves. But dynamics? Sheesh, untouchable.
A couple of questions for you. Please don't think I question what you hear or don't, just trying to get a grasp on maybe some of the things you state.
The nuances, musicality, timber, emotions,etc., that the musicians are trying to portray, shouldn't that be on the recording from their instruments, not a development from your "boxed" speaker? If your speaker just plays whats on the recording you should hear it, not have your speakers make their own resonances.
Also, wouldn't the lack of a chamber on the rear of a driver, allow for greater sensitivity, thereby allowing a "faster" cone response and better finite detail?
I have a diy version of the Prometheus, which on some music is very incredible, some kind of...hmmm.. Not bad, just, probably a little shouty from the 12" mid-range. Worse I think when toed-in. If I could just make them a little more mellow without valves. But dynamics? Sheesh, untouchable.
Traskutis
i have used audionote oto triangle te 60 the most musical solid state i have ever owned and the Fourier panther OTL's. The reason I am very sure it is not my ancillaries is because the minute i add an enclosed speaker i get a lot of the harmonics i am talking about and the emotional ideation i am talking about. Everything else might be much more inferior to the open baffle in hifi terms.
i have used audionote oto triangle te 60 the most musical solid state i have ever owned and the Fourier panther OTL's. The reason I am very sure it is not my ancillaries is because the minute i add an enclosed speaker i get a lot of the harmonics i am talking about and the emotional ideation i am talking about. Everything else might be much more inferior to the open baffle in hifi terms.
nvrgdenuf
I agree with the sound you have just described and i too have a little bit of shouting although 2mH of inductor in series seems to have removed most of that as well.
Yes absolutely you recreate what is in the signals. However, does the signal carry all the information that is needed to reproduce live music or do we have to fill in the gaps?? Also speakers vary in detail etc depending on what parts of the signal they can and cannot reproduce to their maxmum ability and this is very much dependent on the design. e.g with an enclosure without an enclosure, alnico magnet versus ceramic, crossver design, cone design etc etc etc. So many variables so many potential interpretations of what is contained within the signal. I think it would not be wise to assume that a speaker driver alone must be the only and most perfect translator of a signal.
Just as a bit of fun I could make up the following analogy. A physician more often than not cannot make the right diagnosis by following the tried and tested diagnositic pathways (designed following thousands of retrospective case studies, science theory and practice) from the avaialble history and investigations made. There are potentially numerous ways of interpreting the results and symptoms, and bouncing ideas off several different physicians from several different specialities would lead to even more information that would ultimately lead to a more accurate picture of the diagnosis.
But we begin with a more threadbare history to begin with which hides untold numbers of chemical and biological mechanisms at play within the human body that led to the illness in the first place. Not sure if that was a good analogy or not??
I agree with the sound you have just described and i too have a little bit of shouting although 2mH of inductor in series seems to have removed most of that as well.
Yes absolutely you recreate what is in the signals. However, does the signal carry all the information that is needed to reproduce live music or do we have to fill in the gaps?? Also speakers vary in detail etc depending on what parts of the signal they can and cannot reproduce to their maxmum ability and this is very much dependent on the design. e.g with an enclosure without an enclosure, alnico magnet versus ceramic, crossver design, cone design etc etc etc. So many variables so many potential interpretations of what is contained within the signal. I think it would not be wise to assume that a speaker driver alone must be the only and most perfect translator of a signal.
Just as a bit of fun I could make up the following analogy. A physician more often than not cannot make the right diagnosis by following the tried and tested diagnositic pathways (designed following thousands of retrospective case studies, science theory and practice) from the avaialble history and investigations made. There are potentially numerous ways of interpreting the results and symptoms, and bouncing ideas off several different physicians from several different specialities would lead to even more information that would ultimately lead to a more accurate picture of the diagnosis.
But we begin with a more threadbare history to begin with which hides untold numbers of chemical and biological mechanisms at play within the human body that led to the illness in the first place. Not sure if that was a good analogy or not??
That speaker cabinet, I would only regard as a practice amp.
Not bad, but I definitely wouldn't take it too the studio to record.
I don't know whether it is worth the effort to buy another one but if you haven't given up I would look at a dedicate 2x10" cabinet (eg EDEN D210XST). You are going to need two for stereo. Buying second hand is the way to go, because you weon't lose any money if you have to resell.
I am also considering magnepan speaker.
It is alot of work to build something from scratch and time is something I don't have much of at the moment.
I was getting frustrated and yes i was about to give in. However, i relooked at the lack of harmonics and the tonal spectrum. I wanted to continue to explore further the driver and whether it was technologically at fault and needed the help of an enclosure to get the timbre information right.
I had always looked at the baffle step compensation as a filter for the subwoofer. However, the mid range/bass 12" drivers themselves are also under the same narrow baffle frequency cancellation rules. So I added in an inductor and resistor and tuned by ear. Settled on 400 ohms!!!! and 2.5mH. Yes more mid bass warmth came through, slightly more tonal fleshing out was also noticed. However was this simply a frequency balancing act or did i indeed manage to tease out more of the harmonics????
Will continue once back from my Hols.
I had always looked at the baffle step compensation as a filter for the subwoofer. However, the mid range/bass 12" drivers themselves are also under the same narrow baffle frequency cancellation rules. So I added in an inductor and resistor and tuned by ear. Settled on 400 ohms!!!! and 2.5mH. Yes more mid bass warmth came through, slightly more tonal fleshing out was also noticed. However was this simply a frequency balancing act or did i indeed manage to tease out more of the harmonics????
Will continue once back from my Hols.
Did you ever investigate one sealed 12" and one open baffled 12"? I can't remember if I suggested this or not but it was suggested to me by Thorsten Loesch, who knows a lot about speakers 🙂
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