The polar in HF section has a little bit of Banding on the Troy 290. What exactly is the source would need to be figured.
The Effects of the sharp transitions can be seen in the Polar Simulation of the TH4001, at 700hz and possibly the source of the resonances at 1500hz, and slightly above and below 5khz but smoother off axis 5khz to 10khz
The Yuichi seems to be a more constant directivity and the Troy 290 rising DI from about 1500khz and up than the other horn.
Both good performing horns....
@oltos The horns are similar. I do prefer the thicker construction, regardless the horn profile. You should consider that we are looking at simulations of the Tad, above. Actual measurements may show that the horns are even more similar.
Exponential expansion
Vs
Wider sweet spot with the Tad horn
The Troy 290 will have a more focused sound on the top register due to high directivity.
Exponential expansion
Vs
Wider sweet spot with the Tad horn
The Troy 290 will have a more focused sound on the top register due to high directivity.
Proper executed expo horns sound more natural around upper cutoff than most others. My Athos A290s are more of a CD profile, similar to the larger JBL biradials, just with the vertical directivity flip around 1k. I believe this is common on most similar proportioned biradials. My issue is finding a driver which performs as good as the TAD without the price tag. I've found a PRV titanium/poly diaphragm driver which looks promising after dampening mods. The DCX50 is still on the table, but requires a proper adapter transition to make work up top. This is the issue with using other drivers on the original spec A290 throat adapter, as its designed for the larger TAD.
I was going to pair up a dual 12" midbass with the A290, but it really needs another FLH to properly gel with. I recently got a pair of 12PE32s in trade so the Inlow 100hz midbass horns would be a good pairing IMO.
I was going to pair up a dual 12" midbass with the A290, but it really needs another FLH to properly gel with. I recently got a pair of 12PE32s in trade so the Inlow 100hz midbass horns would be a good pairing IMO.
If you want a beryllium driver you might want to check out these Radians. Not cheap but a lot less than TAD. https://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm
There's also this one. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/18sound-nd1480be-beryllium-1-40-compression-driver-test-review
Thanks for this analysis, and as I recall that pretty much what Troy said. So, I have to decide between those types of "direct" and "indirect" sound, respectively. OTOH, you did say during our chats that if I really went to town on the room and made it as dead as some studios are studio then I could essentially get direct sound presentation from a horn like Troy's. Another decision to make.
But I also wish it was possible to make a much more informed comparison between the A290 and TH4001, but I can't seem to find those who've had much or any experience hearing or measuring both horns.
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Troy also offers the original 290 horn, but no CD plots are shown.
https://josephcrowe.com/products/custom-yuichi-a-290-biradial-cad-model-make-any-size
Meanwhile, how does this CD plot of Troy’s ES450 horn compare with the ES290?
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/es-450-biradial-no-2143
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415
https://josephcrowe.com/products/custom-yuichi-a-290-biradial-cad-model-make-any-size
Meanwhile, how does this CD plot of Troy’s ES450 horn compare with the ES290?
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/es-450-biradial-no-2143
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415
Without even looking at it, the difference will be how far down directivity reaches. Waves can guided by the surfaces that are the same “size” as the frequencies being produced, which is to say, the larger the waveguide, the lower in the register the waveguide can have influence on directivity. Larger horns that are loading lower provide more sensitivity/efficiency, so looking at the same cover point, the larger horn will have lower distortion related to excursion. I would not trust the numerical designation of the horns in relation to cutoff as the number is chosen by the designers who are not synonymous in intentions or definitions of the term “cutoff”, still, if you are looking to cross over at 500hz-700hz, a strict approach would suggest a cutoff of 250-350hz.
Let’s say all your horn options are quality designs, I’d pic the biggest one and leave it at that.
Asking for subjective opinion is slippery slope into ambiguity. Stay objective to what you want, as your expectations are what you are likely serving. All your choices so far will result in high sound quality implemented correctly. You are trying to achieve “I am there” which is a listening experience dominated in Direct Sound. All horns discussed will give you Directivity which lead to that experience. Slight differences in performance causing difference in listening window and reverb. Objectively and on Axis the more narrow HF of the Troy horns will result in less excitation of the room but as I said you can also create the reduction of indirect sound, using room treatment. Size, once again, a bigger sized horn will allow the horns influence to reach lower into the spectrum and increased efficiency in lower parts of the tweeters reproduction.
It’s not which one is better, it’s what do you want, at this point, because they are all well performing horns at this point with only a little to criticize versus each other.
The A290 is bigger than the TH4001, but even with the right throat adapter for the Radian745Be, because it's 3" rather than a 4" diaphragm the Radian can't cleanly cross at the Altec's ideal 500Hz Fc, even for home use, said https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/fishball79.404/
fishball79 said Radian recommends crossing at 800Hz. https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-radian-audio-engineering-745pb-1-4-compression-driver
Apparently, my Altec 416s can cross up to 1500Hz with a steep filter.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed?_pos=2&_sid=f4df492e4&_ss=r
But if that prevents this woofer from cleanly doing ~ 90db at 100Hz would I be much better off switching to woofers like Pierre's TAD1601,
where he said the sweet spot is 725 to 775Hz?
I do have my subs https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html , but I want to hear the Altecs (or the TADs) play as low as possible 11 ft away in a 2660 cu ft room without any audible distortion.
As the Arai Yuichi A290 is one the horns Marco highly recommends “for hifi use”
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/horns-and-waveguides-101.336780/ , I’ve checked it out. https://www.araihorn.com/
I was encouraged where it looks like the A290 might (somehow) better facilitate crossing with the Altec 416 woofer close to its 500Hz
sweet spot-if used with 3” if not 4” drivers (Yamaha JA6681B, Radian 745Be, SB Audience 65CDNT, Radian 951Be, B&C DCM50)
https://www.araihorn.com/p/arai-290.html’
But then I bumped in this thread where, as I recall eso saying here about horns with fins, that Those Yuichis sound superb, and because of their radial design they sound better off-axis. The same portion of the design that gives better off-axis performance is also responsible for somewhat flattening the soundstage. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbull...rigin-of-the-Yuichi-horns-paging-Steve-Schell
But is eso talking about the Arari, Athos or other A290 horn? Now what should I think? A flatter sound stage? Isn’t it bad enough that horns like the 290 and 4001 have limited vertical sound stage? And how would the 290’s sound stage height, width and depth compare to the block milled Athos TH4001? https://www.athosaudio.com/2021/01/01/tad-th-4001/
In any case, as those I’ve recently chatted with strongly suggest, I must now immediately begin posting requests for invitations to hear completed systems using A290, TH4001, Yamamoto F350 and ES290 horns, here and at several other forums. Trouble is, I am limited to traveling within the US and only by rail, making coast to coast visits out of the question. So, I will have to be really lucky to get to hear systems like those.
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“Flatten the sound stage” that isn’t even technically correct. Sound stage is a term that is just another way of saying imaging. Flat is not an adjective that would be used to describe imaging.
Comparing different horns on different drivers in different rooms with different voicing on different systems, yeah that’s about as logical as testing different tires on different cars that are running on different terrains in order to figure which tire you want. You’d need to test different horns on the same driver in the same room, with the same voicing on the same system with the same listening positions etc etc to even try to be objective
As to listening window, the vertical off axis is not optimal on any of the horns you are listing so probably shouldn’t lose sleep over that aspect. As I already stated, the horizontal polar isn’t horrible on any of the horn measurements we touched on.
I repeat all the horns discussed are nice to have, and likely better than anything you’ve ever heard already since you’ve heard no horns lol. If you are worried about off axis performance the Yuichi/Th4001 has a wider HF dispersion than the ES290. All this means is you will be able to accommodate more people into a listening experience because listening solo you should be listening on axis or very slightly off axis in the equilateral triangle. “Wider” in this case isn’t drastically different than the ES horn.
If you start getting into subjective opinion on this stuff you will end up more confused than ever.
Comparing different horns on different drivers in different rooms with different voicing on different systems, yeah that’s about as logical as testing different tires on different cars that are running on different terrains in order to figure which tire you want. You’d need to test different horns on the same driver in the same room, with the same voicing on the same system with the same listening positions etc etc to even try to be objective
As to listening window, the vertical off axis is not optimal on any of the horns you are listing so probably shouldn’t lose sleep over that aspect. As I already stated, the horizontal polar isn’t horrible on any of the horn measurements we touched on.
I repeat all the horns discussed are nice to have, and likely better than anything you’ve ever heard already since you’ve heard no horns lol. If you are worried about off axis performance the Yuichi/Th4001 has a wider HF dispersion than the ES290. All this means is you will be able to accommodate more people into a listening experience because listening solo you should be listening on axis or very slightly off axis in the equilateral triangle. “Wider” in this case isn’t drastically different than the ES horn.
If you start getting into subjective opinion on this stuff you will end up more confused than ever.
IMO, what makes a large format wide bandwidth WG suitable for critical hifi listening is a reasonable compromise between directivity and extended FR over at least a few chair widths of a listening window.
Excessively wide HF dispersion (which produces a lot of early reflections without sufficient directivity) tends to create an artificially exagerated, wide soundstage. It tends to push otherwise easy to locate acoustical instruments and events further past the outer boundaries of both L + R speakers, creating a fake sounding stereo image.
There are some mic techniques and forms of signal processing used in the studio which are capable of producing exactly this sort of exagerated acoustical stereo image. This is mainly done so intentionally in alot of pop and modern music to create various special effects for the sake of artistic expression, not so much to reproduce an accurate sounding stereo effect which wasn't previously there in the original instrument or sound source.
Minimal baffle speaker designs are also commonly used to produce this euphonic sounding, artificially exaggerated soundstage with the help of the room's excessively reverberant acoustics. IMHO, minimal baffle speakers aren't capable of reproducing or rendering accurate stereo images unless they're placed in an acoustically dead or highly dampened listening space. They'd be very difficult to get a reasonably well balanced sound out of in most commonly encountered living spaces.
The main goal of recreating a convincingly accurate stereo image isn't possible to fulfill if a large, uncontrolled portion of reflected sound makes its way to the listener's ears, regardless of how low THD is along with other forms of unwanted audio.
Excessively wide HF dispersion (which produces a lot of early reflections without sufficient directivity) tends to create an artificially exagerated, wide soundstage. It tends to push otherwise easy to locate acoustical instruments and events further past the outer boundaries of both L + R speakers, creating a fake sounding stereo image.
There are some mic techniques and forms of signal processing used in the studio which are capable of producing exactly this sort of exagerated acoustical stereo image. This is mainly done so intentionally in alot of pop and modern music to create various special effects for the sake of artistic expression, not so much to reproduce an accurate sounding stereo effect which wasn't previously there in the original instrument or sound source.
Minimal baffle speaker designs are also commonly used to produce this euphonic sounding, artificially exaggerated soundstage with the help of the room's excessively reverberant acoustics. IMHO, minimal baffle speakers aren't capable of reproducing or rendering accurate stereo images unless they're placed in an acoustically dead or highly dampened listening space. They'd be very difficult to get a reasonably well balanced sound out of in most commonly encountered living spaces.
The main goal of recreating a convincingly accurate stereo image isn't possible to fulfill if a large, uncontrolled portion of reflected sound makes its way to the listener's ears, regardless of how low THD is along with other forms of unwanted audio.
Ultimately it is the subjective result that matters, getting there seems to require a lot of work with the A-290 even with TD-4001 drivers, I have done thousands of measurements, treated the room, fiddled with the horn adapters to make sure the drivers are aligned properly to the flanges. (bolt hole diameter is too large) Lots of changes to EQ and crossover points over time, all of which is handled by DSP along with driver offsets.
The yuichi polars are not ideal for a room as small as mine, and they forced me to heavily treat the room in order to get acceptable performance. I like sound staging and lots of detail, I also like extended LF (I have subs), but truthfully have lost the entire top octave although I know when it isn't there. The joys of getting older.
I am making progress, but I am pretty sure knowing what I now know that I would have chosen a different route. I have also come to the conclusion that the Onkens are an 18 yr old mistake compounded with a deficit due to the center to center distance to the mid horn. The real problem is all of those ports. There is substantial output well above the range where I naively expected that to be the case, and there is also significant 2nd and 3rd harmonic radiating through the port which is well into the mid-range. (Yes it is as much as 50dB down) I have stuffed the ports which does seem to help with those harmonics.
System sounds relatively good, but I rarely go more than a month or two before making major changes which generally result in some further improvement.
Today I confirmed what I already knew instinctively, that the horn amps I designed and built 7 years ago are as flawed as I suspected, modification effected a large change (waiting to see if I think it is an improvement over a few days.) One probably should not directly drive a TAD TD-4001 with an 300B DHT SE amplifier with no global feedback. I am in the process of designing solid state amps with lateral mosfet outputs as a replacement. Will see how they compare. The 300B amps are modular so it is possible to replace the driver circuitry with an improved design for some possible improvement.
How many mistakes can one guy make? LOL The entertainment value is inestimable as is the aggravation factor. Learning is tough. I sometimes wish I could travel back a decade or so and compare today's system with the system of that time to see if I really have made progress. I believe that is the case. Despite my whining there are no local systems in the same league so comparison hasn't been possible.
The yuichi polars are not ideal for a room as small as mine, and they forced me to heavily treat the room in order to get acceptable performance. I like sound staging and lots of detail, I also like extended LF (I have subs), but truthfully have lost the entire top octave although I know when it isn't there. The joys of getting older.
I am making progress, but I am pretty sure knowing what I now know that I would have chosen a different route. I have also come to the conclusion that the Onkens are an 18 yr old mistake compounded with a deficit due to the center to center distance to the mid horn. The real problem is all of those ports. There is substantial output well above the range where I naively expected that to be the case, and there is also significant 2nd and 3rd harmonic radiating through the port which is well into the mid-range. (Yes it is as much as 50dB down) I have stuffed the ports which does seem to help with those harmonics.
System sounds relatively good, but I rarely go more than a month or two before making major changes which generally result in some further improvement.
Today I confirmed what I already knew instinctively, that the horn amps I designed and built 7 years ago are as flawed as I suspected, modification effected a large change (waiting to see if I think it is an improvement over a few days.) One probably should not directly drive a TAD TD-4001 with an 300B DHT SE amplifier with no global feedback. I am in the process of designing solid state amps with lateral mosfet outputs as a replacement. Will see how they compare. The 300B amps are modular so it is possible to replace the driver circuitry with an improved design for some possible improvement.
How many mistakes can one guy make? LOL The entertainment value is inestimable as is the aggravation factor. Learning is tough. I sometimes wish I could travel back a decade or so and compare today's system with the system of that time to see if I really have made progress. I believe that is the case. Despite my whining there are no local systems in the same league so comparison hasn't been possible.
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👍
Do JMLC horns generally give better much better vertical dispersion at the cost of a narrower horizontal dispersion?
Now, you're really asking from the impossible, at least from me. The best that I can do to help myself is precisely what Docali suggested: search for people who own this or those horn and listen to them. This will open up the mind in what direction to go.
And that just what I've done, here and at seven other forums.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...s290-horn-in-your-2-or-3-way-speakers.417878/
Might you be saying that given the A290 or TH4001 horn, that this 3" Be driver.
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 745neoBepb-1.htm might yield a more realistic stereo image than the 4" version
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 951Bepb-1.htm , even with both being equalized as perfectly as Pierre did for his 745Be to extend HF response out to ~ 17kHz?
In any case, as it turned out, Pierre got lucky with his TAD 1601B woofers, because according to fishball79 Radian said that the 745Be should be crossed at 800Hz, and Pierre found the TAD woofer's sweet spot is 725 to 775Hz. But for my Altec 416 woofer it's 500Hz. Meanwhile, I can't make much sense out of those crossover specs at these links.
I recall our posts about the Radian AI and Be and was expecting you would have found happiness with the TD-4001/A290 combo. It appears that you have in some respects, though not after what to me are like superhuman efforts in all respects; countless EQ and crossover remeasurements and retrials, major room treatments, amplifier swapping, et al. And still some rivers to cross.
My room is ~ 2660 cu ft that empties into a ~ 11 ft x 9 ft kitchen. There's a triangular ceiling over everything which peaks at 11 ft. Only two small upholstered chairs, a small open glass table and four of these subs. https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html Would the A290 still be too big? The TH-4001?
I hope this isn't a largely ignorant based reply, but using software like https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ and submitting results here or to threads like this one https://gearspace.com/board/bass-tr...2560-any-auralex-products-worth-having-2.html , could a scheme be worked up to mitigate most of the troublesome room reflections without having to tear up walls or floors?
And after the room's been better tamed, since my system is Windows based (no vinyl or tape) could I then finish the job with convolving filters using something like DIRAC Live?
The challenge in creating this directivity can be so great that it affords no room to select a horn based on anything else.
Treating the room directly is the only effective recourse in the frequency range we are talking about. I used a variety of custom made acoustimac absorbers and this has worked really well and was not expensive. Even a few strategically placed panels will help. I have mixed feelings about dirac at the moment and am currently not using it. Really try to fix the big problems in the room first, think of Dirac as the icing on as good a bit of cake as you can manage
Why not?
Just a thought, What about putting another sheet over the whole baffle to cover the side ports (also netting a thicker front baffle) , flip the box upside-down and put 'standard' tuneable tube ports under the driver to suit?