Hi everyone,
Eldam and 4mc2, I'm not sure that I understand all your advices regarding a 3 ways with the Emilar covering 2kHz and higher for example. What are the advantage? I buy it because it covers 500 to 15 000 Hz and I could cross-over around 800 Hz with the GPA 414-8B.
This said, Francis told me that the EH800 horn could cover 800 to 12 000Hz. I'll have to ask him why the 12kHz vs. 15kHz. Anyway, I was more thinking about a tweeter above the Emilar.
Regarding filtering, I think to keep it passive for now and learn from it before going active one day.
Have a good night (or day),
Sébastien
Eldam and 4mc2, I'm not sure that I understand all your advices regarding a 3 ways with the Emilar covering 2kHz and higher for example. What are the advantage? I buy it because it covers 500 to 15 000 Hz and I could cross-over around 800 Hz with the GPA 414-8B.
This said, Francis told me that the EH800 horn could cover 800 to 12 000Hz. I'll have to ask him why the 12kHz vs. 15kHz. Anyway, I was more thinking about a tweeter above the Emilar.
Regarding filtering, I think to keep it passive for now and learn from it before going active one day.
Have a good night (or day),
Sébastien
OK the very high frequency is not really there but which frequency is more important !
12 kz and higher or the low-mid ?
6 kz to 12 kz is important but 12 kz and higher ?
Anyway , the final two moat be at their best !
With a CD for the high ,
there is a very wide dynamic range with lots of details that you would not in the lower midrange ........ the tonal work not the same way
You can recover this very high frequency by a over tweeter ..... with the Townshend Super tweeter ! ... or other ......... bonus , it will improve all frequencies !
You can start with a two-way, it will be already very well if there is a 12 " which gives the smoothness in the lower midrange ........... and upgrade with a wood horn at 500 hz , such as Francis have .
12 kz and higher or the low-mid ?
6 kz to 12 kz is important but 12 kz and higher ?
Anyway , the final two moat be at their best !
With a CD for the high ,
there is a very wide dynamic range with lots of details that you would not in the lower midrange ........ the tonal work not the same way
You can recover this very high frequency by a over tweeter ..... with the Townshend Super tweeter ! ... or other ......... bonus , it will improve all frequencies !
You can start with a two-way, it will be already very well if there is a 12 " which gives the smoothness in the lower midrange ........... and upgrade with a wood horn at 500 hz , such as Francis have .
Yes, it is a wise advice from 4MC2.
Sebastien : when you will want it: the tweeter is not a problem at the frequencies over 10K hz: just put like the best diyers with high efficienty did already here: a "simple 300 american dollars" ES Heil air motion transformer give an excelent result at those frequencies (if not the best in fact) : fare more better than an Fostex or any compression driver with too much projection. Beyma TLP150 stay a good advice as it is designed for professional (robust with time) with better efficienty than Heil and very smooth too : a passive first or second order Xover could be sufisant here at those frequencies maybe !
Sebastien : when you will want it: the tweeter is not a problem at the frequencies over 10K hz: just put like the best diyers with high efficienty did already here: a "simple 300 american dollars" ES Heil air motion transformer give an excelent result at those frequencies (if not the best in fact) : fare more better than an Fostex or any compression driver with too much projection. Beyma TLP150 stay a good advice as it is designed for professional (robust with time) with better efficienty than Heil and very smooth too : a passive first or second order Xover could be sufisant here at those frequencies maybe !
Biamp or only the double 300B ?
With a CD at 108 db , I will put the 300B only for him .... 108 db + 14 or 15 db from the amp , he can go up to 122 db .... its perfect ! ..... and another amp for the low , like that Francis have make .
If its only one amp , it's like your old HP at 100 db .... not logical!
To the question of lower midrange, you saw, with Brel, daily DIY difference between your HP and Coral, it was precisely in the lower midrange ..... much more presence and nuance.
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For the 12" takes a look at the Celestion , not Beyma ! ........ the Vintage 30 ( 100 db ) or another one
With 4 Vintage 30 .......... = 106 db , if only with the 300B
Classic - Vintage 30 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
With a CD at 108 db , I will put the 300B only for him .... 108 db + 14 or 15 db from the amp , he can go up to 122 db .... its perfect ! ..... and another amp for the low , like that Francis have make .
If its only one amp , it's like your old HP at 100 db .... not logical!
To the question of lower midrange, you saw, with Brel, daily DIY difference between your HP and Coral, it was precisely in the lower midrange ..... much more presence and nuance.
=================================
For the 12" takes a look at the Celestion , not Beyma ! ........ the Vintage 30 ( 100 db ) or another one
With 4 Vintage 30 .......... = 106 db , if only with the 300B
Classic - Vintage 30 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
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4MC2,
Did you try many Celestion ? Why this one against other Celestion ones? Q/P? I didn't found many datas about these driver (QT, mms, 15°,30° measurement). bad personal experience with modern Faital or Beyma or just a question on flavor ? It's interresting as most of people have a faith in these modern drivers !
with little information we have we can try 300 (near 2 octaves above the FS and 1200 minimum... but what I see after 1000 is difficult to deal with passive XO ?
Do Sebastien has a good horn for the EMILAR to beginn with him two drivers ? What will you choose for match with the Emilars ?
Did you try many Celestion ? Why this one against other Celestion ones? Q/P? I didn't found many datas about these driver (QT, mms, 15°,30° measurement). bad personal experience with modern Faital or Beyma or just a question on flavor ? It's interresting as most of people have a faith in these modern drivers !
with little information we have we can try 300 (near 2 octaves above the FS and 1200 minimum... but what I see after 1000 is difficult to deal with passive XO ?
Do Sebastien has a good horn for the EMILAR to beginn with him two drivers ? What will you choose for match with the Emilars ?
Bonjour Michel et Eldam,
I already heard really good comments on the Townshend supertweeter. I had a super tweeter on my Harbeth SHL5 in the past and I really like what it adds to the sound. As I play drum, I can clearly hear the better richness of the sound of the cymbals with a supertweeter. They sound more like real cymbals.
As I see it as a work in progress projet, I'm confortable to start in in a two ways design and evolve from there with the right third way.
Regarding the horn, it comes with a pair or Emilar EH800 horns. I'm thinking to add some epoxy cement on them which I found an excellent idea to damp them the most.
See you,
Sébastien
At this time, I will run the PSE 300B at 18W in fullrage. I'm sure that I will bi-amplified my system in the future but not in the next months. A good thing is that I know someone in France with exactly the same DIY PSE 300B as me who use them with a pair of petites Onken with great results. He's the brother of PSE's 300B designer, or maybe they designed them together. Anyway...
Michel, I'm not sure that I understand your statement about "not logical". Since one year I'm listening to my AMA 3x100 with a PP EL34 Rogue Audio Cronus with great pleasure.
Finally, you are still talking about 12" but for me guys it's clear that I will go with the Great Plain Audio 414-8B.
Have a good day,
Sébastien
With a PP EL34 ..... 35 or 40 watts he have some energy for headroom ( for the dynamic peak ) but with a PSE 300B you will be short for reserve . The difference will be not big but the must high peak will be cut ..... = less dynamic sensation . The Amp will be work near limit ( most the time for the higher dynamic , 15 to 20 db more that average ) and he will make many harmonic and distortion that the CD will not have if it was only it on amp
For damping the horn , epoxy is not as hard as that a ceramic ciment that have latex or epoxy ....... ask to a saler in this domain for to have the must paste on substrat . He have also , in body car , the "All metal filling " but is expensive . Both are like a rock after one or two days
For the best speaker ...... should listen to them before making choices are ,.... before to buy
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Salut Michel,
Ah ok, I understand now the "pas logique". Well, I don't know how it will sound. Those stories about sensitivity always make me think about the impedance of the speaker. The AMA 3x100 goes down to 4 ohms at 100 dB and the original Altec 414 was easier to drive. If I'm correct, they don't go below 6 ohms and that's make an good difference. We have to know about GPA's 414-8B who's not at 95 but 96 dB. Anyone here with an impedance graph? I guess they are close to the original.
Regarding the listening to speakers I'm considering ot buy for the petite Onken, that's the ideal way but I can't do it. I don't even now anyone here in Québec with a petit Onken with GPA's nor someone with GPA's 414. That's why I make a lot of reading on sites of confidence. Then, I'm able to get listening impression from many that correlate on how it sounds.
In the past, I trusted this for my Technics SP-10 mkII, my Audio Research SP-10, my AMA 3x100, etc... Always with very good results, sometime even better than what I tought.
Have a good night,
Sébastien
Ah ok, I understand now the "pas logique". Well, I don't know how it will sound. Those stories about sensitivity always make me think about the impedance of the speaker. The AMA 3x100 goes down to 4 ohms at 100 dB and the original Altec 414 was easier to drive. If I'm correct, they don't go below 6 ohms and that's make an good difference. We have to know about GPA's 414-8B who's not at 95 but 96 dB. Anyone here with an impedance graph? I guess they are close to the original.
Regarding the listening to speakers I'm considering ot buy for the petite Onken, that's the ideal way but I can't do it. I don't even now anyone here in Québec with a petit Onken with GPA's nor someone with GPA's 414. That's why I make a lot of reading on sites of confidence. Then, I'm able to get listening impression from many that correlate on how it sounds.
In the past, I trusted this for my Technics SP-10 mkII, my Audio Research SP-10, my AMA 3x100, etc... Always with very good results, sometime even better than what I tought.
Have a good night,
Sébastien
GOOGLE TRANSLATE ;
The peak of which you speak is in the bottom curve is the rendering of harmonics , it sends a wave 1 kz at maximum rms value of the speaker and looking at the spectrum that it gives to see his behavior ..... unless there is better than it is. The top curve is the real curve 1 watt if you notice in the frequencies from 300 to 700 there is a depression from 4 to 5 db (not good )
There Belisle Acoustics , 2400, boul Ford, Châteauguay , 450-691-2584 can find the real values and THIELE SMALL hp each individually, it has apparitus for these tests ( this is a manufacturer of speaker )
According to the site petoindominique for 414 , it shows the parameters of different version of the 414 ..... B is a midrange and bass are only other louise c ......... is the B must be taken to have a good definition in the medium ..... if you notice it is he who has the mass ( Mms ) Lowest 29 gr is fine for a 12 "
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Les peak dont tu parle est dans la courbe du bas qui est le rendu des harmoniques , on envoie une onde de 1 kz au maximum de la valeur rms du speaker et on regarde le spectre que ça donne pour voir son comportement ..... moins qu'il y en a mieux que c'est . La courbe du haut c'est la courbe réel à 1 watt , si tu remarque dans les fréquences 300 à 700 il y a une dépression de 4 à 5 db ( pas bon ) ............ mais on connait pas les conditions de cette prise de donner .
Il y a Belisle Acoustique , 2400, boul Ford, Châteauguay, 450-691-2584 qui peut trouver les valeurs réel de THIELE et SMALL de chaque hp individuellement , il a les appareilles pour faire ces tests ( c'est un fabriquant de speaker )
D'après le site de petoindominique , pour les 414 , il donne les paramètres des différentes version du 414 ..... le B est un grave médium et les autres sont des graves seulement ......... évidement c'est le B qu'il faut prendre , pour avoir une bonne définition dans le médium ..... si tu remarque c'est lui qui a la masse ( Mms ) la plus basse , 29 gr c'est très bien pour un 12 " . Pour l'efficacité c'est dans , habituellement , la zone de 1 kz . Mais c'est mieux de voir la courbe dans les fréquences qu'on veut .
Paramètres de THIELE et SMALL des haut-parleurs
The peak of which you speak is in the bottom curve is the rendering of harmonics , it sends a wave 1 kz at maximum rms value of the speaker and looking at the spectrum that it gives to see his behavior ..... unless there is better than it is. The top curve is the real curve 1 watt if you notice in the frequencies from 300 to 700 there is a depression from 4 to 5 db (not good )
There Belisle Acoustics , 2400, boul Ford, Châteauguay , 450-691-2584 can find the real values and THIELE SMALL hp each individually, it has apparitus for these tests ( this is a manufacturer of speaker )
According to the site petoindominique for 414 , it shows the parameters of different version of the 414 ..... B is a midrange and bass are only other louise c ......... is the B must be taken to have a good definition in the medium ..... if you notice it is he who has the mass ( Mms ) Lowest 29 gr is fine for a 12 "
=======================================
Les peak dont tu parle est dans la courbe du bas qui est le rendu des harmoniques , on envoie une onde de 1 kz au maximum de la valeur rms du speaker et on regarde le spectre que ça donne pour voir son comportement ..... moins qu'il y en a mieux que c'est . La courbe du haut c'est la courbe réel à 1 watt , si tu remarque dans les fréquences 300 à 700 il y a une dépression de 4 à 5 db ( pas bon ) ............ mais on connait pas les conditions de cette prise de donner .
Il y a Belisle Acoustique , 2400, boul Ford, Châteauguay, 450-691-2584 qui peut trouver les valeurs réel de THIELE et SMALL de chaque hp individuellement , il a les appareilles pour faire ces tests ( c'est un fabriquant de speaker )
D'après le site de petoindominique , pour les 414 , il donne les paramètres des différentes version du 414 ..... le B est un grave médium et les autres sont des graves seulement ......... évidement c'est le B qu'il faut prendre , pour avoir une bonne définition dans le médium ..... si tu remarque c'est lui qui a la masse ( Mms ) la plus basse , 29 gr c'est très bien pour un 12 " . Pour l'efficacité c'est dans , habituellement , la zone de 1 kz . Mais c'est mieux de voir la courbe dans les fréquences qu'on veut .
Paramètres de THIELE et SMALL des haut-parleurs
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I would like to have the same quality of Google translate on my brosser... !
Petoindominique site are most of the time non tested data : it is datas given by the manufacterer. Some of the drivers had been tested and data modified.
When I said to Sebastien than a light driver is needed tho have a good mid-bass and medium! Happy you agree with that.
It's a little OT but what would you advise for High efficienty if you'll beginn from scratch (with speakers I mean) ?
Petoindominique site are most of the time non tested data : it is datas given by the manufacterer. Some of the drivers had been tested and data modified.
When I said to Sebastien than a light driver is needed tho have a good mid-bass and medium! Happy you agree with that.
It's a little OT but what would you advise for High efficienty if you'll beginn from scratch (with speakers I mean) ?
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With a 2" CD ................ Mms = 1.5 to 2 gr , but for down to low he must have a very long horn .
I work on a 3 Way with 2 CD ...... go down to 200 or 250 hz .
Imagine resolution midbass that has a slight 8 " or 21 cm (8 or 9 gr) !
There is not only the resolution but also the speed of response which is a function of the mass ( F = M A )........... for attacks musical notes
I work on a 3 Way with 2 CD ...... go down to 200 or 250 hz .
Imagine resolution midbass that has a slight 8 " or 21 cm (8 or 9 gr) !
There is not only the resolution but also the speed of response which is a function of the mass ( F = M A )........... for attacks musical notes
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Does a 2" CD with FSs near 125 hz exit ? Have you with CD to crossover 1 octave minimum above Fs like with a cone driver ?
For the bass-mid, I don't know any high effcienty < 10 g with a rigid cone enough for those bass frequencies and a Fs < 30 hz exist (if the bass-mid need to play 60 hz to 250 hz)
But having a special driver for those frequencies are a dream for me as my own believing is this is the harder to reproduce with the medmium fhz...
Do you believe from your own experience it is possible to have a high efficienty 3 ways like that ? :
- Bass closed cabinet with 25 hz to around 80 hz with a slow - 6d at 25 hz for home integration ?
- Close or vented or bass horn for the bass-mid: 80 hz to 200 hz (300hz max)? Maybe a QT load (but too long load behind the driver maket it no so reactiv?!) Driver model?
- Then a good 2" CD. Which one ?
Iwata or JMLC horn for the 2" CD ? or short à la Dr Geedle ?
Not easy in a normal lounge room as such a system would have a big foot print !
For the bass-mid, I don't know any high effcienty < 10 g with a rigid cone enough for those bass frequencies and a Fs < 30 hz exist (if the bass-mid need to play 60 hz to 250 hz)
But having a special driver for those frequencies are a dream for me as my own believing is this is the harder to reproduce with the medmium fhz...
Do you believe from your own experience it is possible to have a high efficienty 3 ways like that ? :
- Bass closed cabinet with 25 hz to around 80 hz with a slow - 6d at 25 hz for home integration ?
- Close or vented or bass horn for the bass-mid: 80 hz to 200 hz (300hz max)? Maybe a QT load (but too long load behind the driver maket it no so reactiv?!) Driver model?
- Then a good 2" CD. Which one ?
Iwata or JMLC horn for the 2" CD ? or short à la Dr Geedle ?
Not easy in a normal lounge room as such a system would have a big foot print !
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Il y a des chambres de compression pour la basse aussi , une compagnie Japonaise ( mais je ne retrouve pas le lien ) en fait ........... mais c'est plus logique de passer par un ampli séparé pour la basse , elle n'a pas besoin de rapidité comme les hautes et le médium , étant donner la largeur en temps de ces fréquences ( la membrane a du temps pour se rendre au sommet ) . Sans compter qu'un long pavillon risque d'avoir un son typique . Au début la Western Electric en faisait , vous les avez peut-être vous en photo ..... Un moteur avec un long cou en arrière en demi-lune .
200 hz c'est déjà bien , il y a le mariage des tonalités qui n'est pas facile entre c'est deux là . Pour le horn c'est un horn spéciale que je vais faire moi-même et que j'ai jamais vu ailleurs .
Pour les CD 2" .......... chambre avec dôme de 4 " qui peut descendre en fréquence . Mais à 100 ou 150 hz ça commence a être risqué pour sa fiabilité . Une chance qu'il va joué au tour du watt pour les pics de la dynamique et un centième de watts pour la modulation normale .
Oui , tout cela ne sert à rien si le local n'est pas en conséquence ..... grand et acoustique neutre
La traduction est couci-couça !
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There are driver for low compression as a Japanese company ( but I can not find the link) ........... but it actually makes more sense to go through a separate amp bass, it does not need speed as high and medium, is to give the time width of these frequencies ( the membrane has time to get to the top ) . Besides a long flag may have a typical sound . Early Western Electric made it , you may be a picture of you ..... An engine with a long neck back in half-moon have.
200 hz is already good, there is the marriage of tones that is not easy it is between two. For my horn is a special horn I'll do it myself and I 've never seen elsewhere.
For CD 2 ".......... driver with dome 4" which may fall frequency. But 100 or 150 hz it starts to be risky for its reliability . A chance that it will turn played at 1 watt for peak dynamic and hundredth watts for normal modulation.
Yes, all this is useless if the room is not large and therefore ..... neutral acoustic
200 hz c'est déjà bien , il y a le mariage des tonalités qui n'est pas facile entre c'est deux là . Pour le horn c'est un horn spéciale que je vais faire moi-même et que j'ai jamais vu ailleurs .
Pour les CD 2" .......... chambre avec dôme de 4 " qui peut descendre en fréquence . Mais à 100 ou 150 hz ça commence a être risqué pour sa fiabilité . Une chance qu'il va joué au tour du watt pour les pics de la dynamique et un centième de watts pour la modulation normale .
Oui , tout cela ne sert à rien si le local n'est pas en conséquence ..... grand et acoustique neutre
La traduction est couci-couça !
======================================
There are driver for low compression as a Japanese company ( but I can not find the link) ........... but it actually makes more sense to go through a separate amp bass, it does not need speed as high and medium, is to give the time width of these frequencies ( the membrane has time to get to the top ) . Besides a long flag may have a typical sound . Early Western Electric made it , you may be a picture of you ..... An engine with a long neck back in half-moon have.
200 hz is already good, there is the marriage of tones that is not easy it is between two. For my horn is a special horn I'll do it myself and I 've never seen elsewhere.
For CD 2 ".......... driver with dome 4" which may fall frequency. But 100 or 150 hz it starts to be risky for its reliability . A chance that it will turn played at 1 watt for peak dynamic and hundredth watts for normal modulation.
Yes, all this is useless if the room is not large and therefore ..... neutral acoustic
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